Carbing In A Growler

CornyKegs 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Super64

Super64

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
102
Reaction score
8
Location
Pepperell
I have seen several threads here concerning carbing beer in bottles, growlers and modified growlers.

In Maine there is an establishment called Federal Jacks, that sells their "made on site" beer in growlers and six packs. The Master Brewer there is Alan Pugsley, who is also the Master Brewer at The Shipyard Brewing Company, which is also in Maine.

At their website you can send an email to the company officers, which I did, asking Alan if it was possible for a home brewer to carbonate their beer in a Fed Jack's growler.

Mr. Pugsley forward the email to his growler supplier. Since no one has ever asked them that question, it was forwarded it the bottle manufacturer.

Below is their reply:

The bottle print for GX-20913 states:
"This container is designed for non-pasteurized products up to and
including 2.4 gas volumes that are hand filled from a bar tap. This item
is not designed for use on an automatic conveying system, or for use with
automatic fillers."

I think that means "yes" to growler carbing..... :D
 
Sounds like "yes" to filling growlers with carbed beer, not carbing in the growlers. Or am I missing something?
 
i would assume you could since the design spec is for 2.4. and there is probably a safety factor on top of that, so if i were you i would give it a try just don't exceed 2.5, saying that the safety factor it at that limit.

the worst that will happen is a bottle bomb... and you have to clean up a mess.... but you could put it in a bucket or something... and try it
 
Before you do so, make sure you are positive as to how beer is naturally carbonated. I'm not sure if CO2 pressure peaks in the head space before being fully absorbed into the beer.
 
"up to 2.4 gas volumes that are hand filled from a bar tap" -- does not equate to carbonating in the container. They are talking about beer that is already carbed.

Do what you want, it is your eye! :)
 
*slams head against the wall*

Super64 said:
I have seen several threads here concerning carbing beer in bottles, growlers and modified growlers.

In Maine there is an establishment called Federal Jacks, that sells their "made on site" beer in growlers and six packs. The Master Brewer there is Alan Pugsley, who is also the Master Brewer at The Shipyard Brewing Company, which is also in Maine.

At their website you can send an email to the company officers, which I did, asking Alan if it was possible for a home brewer to carbonate their beer in a Fed Jack's growler.

Mr. Pugsley forward the email to his growler supplier. Since no one has ever asked them that question, it was forwarded it the bottle manufacturer.

Below is their reply:

The bottle print for GX-20913 states:
"This container is designed for non-pasteurized products up to and
including 2.4 gas volumes that are hand filled from a bar tap. This item
is not designed for use on an automatic conveying system, or for use with
automatic fillers."

I think that means "yes" to growler carbing..... :D
Click to expand...

I don't read his letter as saying it can be used to carb beer up, I read it as saying it can hold 2.4 volumes of carbonated beer. That has nothing to do with the amount of pressure created during carbonation.

I think he danced around actually answering your question actually. He didn't come out unequvicably yes. He ONLY told you how many Volumes the growler is rated for.

Hand filled at the bar tap means the beer was already carbed at the time it was put it the growler.

Carbed beer and carbonating beer are 2 seperate things, I don't get why people can't grasp that simple fact.

To carb a beer whether or not is is done naturally or with co2 you are forcing the gas into the solution. The pressure builds up, then there's a point where either the bottle fails or the co2, seeking the path of least resistance, forces itself into solution. You could call it a peak point, where there is a lot of pressure in the bottle, both already in solution and in the headspace trying to go into the solution, eventually it balances out and the beer is carbed.

Beer bottles, champagne bottles and kegs are rated with a higher psi/volume of co2 than wine bottles and growlers.

Already carbed and kegged beer is at a stable volume of co2 which is below the volume that growlers and winebottles are rated at. The FORCING of the co2 already happened. Why do you think kegs are made of metal and very very strong? To handle the pressure.

Our Buddy Rukus

RukusDM said:
This is because during carbing, the pressure can go above 30 or 40 PSI. I have a thread in the cider forum where I did several tests bottle carbing sweet hard cider. There is allot of data there if your interested.

I have a bottle with a pressure gauge on it. I recorded pressures during the carbing process. This is how the data was generated. I also recorded pressures while pasteurizing the cider.

I recently bottled some lager I made. I also filled my gauge bottle and my lower pressure gauge bottle pegged at 35 PSI as that was the limit of the gauge. It probably ended up in the 40's, but no way to tell for sure.


When we bottle condition beer, we are really simulating force carbing like the keg folks do. We cause a ferment by adding sugar. This creates a high pressure in the bottle. CO2 doesn't like to dissolve in a warm liquid. We then put some bottles in the fridge. The temperature of the liquid drops and the CO2 then begins to dissolve in the liquid.

It seems to take several days at fridge temperatures for the CO2 to fully saturate the liquid for a maximum saturation for that liquid temperature.

While the CO2 is moving into the liquid, the pressure slowly drops. I've monitored this process as well with the pressure gauge.

Pressures go way higher than folks think while bottle conditioning. In the following data, I carbed sweet hard cider and stopped the carbing and then pasteurized the cider when the bottle was at 22 PSI. My Lager went above 35 PSI. The data doesn't show the extremes the pressure rises with beer as I stopped the cider at 22 PSI, but it would have continued if i hadn't stopped it.

The gauge bottle has a nice side effect, it tells you when your bottles are conditioned as the pressure rise stops. I then throw them in the Fridge to cold condition for several days before I open. The gauge also tells you when they are carbed as the pressure drop stops. Pretty basic really.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/bottle-carbing-idea-final-data-review-205862/

PressureTest-1.jpg
Click to expand...

RukusDM said:
No, when you bottle condition, the slight fermentation we cause by adding priming sugar just builds pressure up in the bottle. The pressures seem to go up into the 30's and 40's PSI from what I've seen.

The CO2 doesn't really move into the liquid until the temperature drops. Some CO2 may, but not the majority of it. CO2 doesn't dissolve into solution until a lower temperature.

This is really what we do when we force carb in a keg. We raise the pressure up when the beer is cold. The CO2 moves into the solution. The tap pressure is lowered for proper delivery and the beer either sets for cold aging, or it is consumed at that time.

What you would see with the pressure gauge (if you use one bigger than my first bottle had. Should use a 100 PSI Gauge) is that the pressure climbs over time and will level off.

Once the pressure levels off, that means all of the priming sugar has been used up by the yeast. Next, you put them into the fridge. You will see the pressure drop over several days. Eventually, it also will level off. I like to let them sit for a few more days after that, but really if the pressure stops dropping, all of the CO2 that can be dissolved at that temperature has been achieved.
.
Click to expand...

I think it goes down to this.....is it worth playing Russian Roulette with your money and the time you spent bringing your brew along from grain to bottling day???

russian-roulette.jpg
 
Hex said:
There are thick, brown, flip-top, 33.4oz/1 l's that may be better suited for this application:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewi...cap-bottles-brown-1-liter-with-flip-tops.html

One other issue is that you may have to pour the entire growler at once, not to disturb the larger amount of sediment.

I like 22's, and will stick with them.
Click to expand...

I got this one from NB for Christmas:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewi.../bottles/2-liter-growler-romantic-handle.html

I didn't even hesitate to bottle and natural carb in it. Been sitting in the basement for a little over 3 weeks now. Haven't had an issue. That lid, gasket, and clamp are pretty heavy duty. Then again, I didn't even think about the relative strength of the glass itself.
 
i carbed in a growler once, but not a full growler's worth, because we had a bit of beer left in the bottom of the bucket and ran out of bottles. it worked, but i'd say it wasnt more than half full
 
SilentAutumn said:
I got this one from NB for Christmas:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/brewing-equipment/bottling/bottles/2-liter-growler-romantic-handle.html

I didn't even hesitate to bottle and natural carb in it. Been sitting in the basement for a little over 3 weeks now. Haven't had an issue. That lid, gasket, and clamp are pretty heavy duty. Then again, I didn't even think about the relative strength of the glass itself.
Click to expand...

notice in the description Brown glass, two-liter German growlers are a handsome way to package and transport homebrew. Swing-top closure with ceramic lid and heavy-duty metal handle. Doesn't say carbonate.

This is always a sensitive area when this is questioned. The folks here will give the boiler plate answer because they don't want to see anyone get hurt.
 
RukusDM said:
notice in the description Brown glass, two-liter German growlers are a handsome way to package and transport homebrew. Swing-top closure with ceramic lid and heavy-duty metal handle. Doesn't say carbonate.
Click to expand...

Hey bro, nice of you to join the party. ;)

You know the funny thing is, those fancy smancy ones I would even be less likely to risk carbing in them. I mean they are not cheap by any means, and they're too pretty to want to risk.
 
I tested a bottle to failure once on purpose. Once you see glass shards sticking in the containment wall, and see how far they go from the bottle location, you realize the forces we are dealing with.

This particular one was a wine bottle pumped up to carbonation pressures.
 
Revvy said:
Hey bro, nice of you to join the party. ;)

You know the funny thing is, those fancy smancy ones I would even be less likely to risk carbing in them. I mean they are not cheap by any means, and they're too pretty to want to risk.
Click to expand...

well to be honest Rev, I did the test because I thought people where over stressing the fact that wine bottles couldn't be used to carb hard cider.

I understood the forces, however I had to prove it. Some may hold...you may never have a problem. With my luck the SOB would go off in my wifes hand or something.
 
Lots of good conversation here.

The Kegerator website has a carbonation chart.

It shows temp values from 32 to 65F with PSI ratings from 1psi and up. Under the 2psi column, the volume of CO2 shows a range of .88 (at 65F) to 1.92 (at 32F) if I am reading the chart correctly.

It also is color coded and indicates that Porters and Stouts should be carbed to 1.52 to 1.92 volumes.

I'm not asking if it is efficient, or would it take a long time, or would we like the end result, but is it possible for particular styles, under certain PSI values at certain temps?
 
Super64 said:
Lots of good conversation here.

The Kegerator website has a carbonation chart.

It shows temp values from 32 to 65F with PSI ratings from 1psi and up. Under the 2psi column, the volume of CO2 shows a range of .88 (at 65F) to 1.92 (at 32F) if I am reading the chart correctly.

It also is color coded and indicates that Porters and Stouts should be carbed to 1.52 to 1.92 volumes.

I'm not asking if it is efficient, or would it take a long time, or would we like the end result, but is it possible for particular styles, under certain PSI values at certain temps?
Click to expand...


I'm not sure I understand your question.
 
Super64 said:
Lots of good conversation here.

The Kegerator website has a carbonation chart.

It shows temp values from 32 to 65F with PSI ratings from 1psi and up. Under the 2psi column, the volume of CO2 shows a range of .88 (at 65F) to 1.92 (at 32F) if I am reading the chart correctly.

It also is color coded and indicates that Porters and Stouts should be carbed to 1.52 to 1.92 volumes.

I'm not asking if it is efficient, or would it take a long time, or would we like the end result, but is it possible for particular styles, under certain PSI values at certain temps?
Click to expand...

For natural carbonation to occur the yeast have to eat and they don't do much at serving temps. Usually carbonation is done at cellar to room temps and the pressure builds before it dissolves. Co2 pressure is higher at warm temps. It's not just the thickness of the glass, it's the quality of the glass. I don't know if you're talking about a growler that looks like a gallon jug ( think dead guy) or a German made swing top heavy duty bottle.
 
RukusDM said:
I tested a bottle to failure once on purpose. Once you see glass shards sticking in the containment wall, and see how far they go from the bottle location, you realize the forces we are dealing with.

This particular one was a wine bottle pumped up to carbonation pressures.
Click to expand...

You're not kidding.

I once had a 1 L swingtop bottle, (meant for carbing!), that I had filled out of my kegerator for a party. Didn't sanitize it, since I was going to drink it that day. Well, I only drank half, then forgot about it in my garage, sealed, half full of beer. Well, of course it developed an infection, (no sanitization), and started to build pressure.

When it blew, one chunk of shrapnel nailed a 1 gal glass carboy 6 feet away and destroyed it. I had glass shards embedded in walls, I had glass shards in every square inch of my garage. The splash pattern of the rotten beer covered most of my garage floor. There was some SERIOUS energy built up in that thing.

Be careful folks.
 
I can tell you from personal experience that I have used and currently am using growlers to carb beer. I've only been brewing since August 2010, but in the time I've used my growlers on three separate occasions to carb my beer. They carb up for me just like the 12 oz. bottles with no issues. My son in law however took one of my growlers of freshly bottled uncarbed beer with him when he left my house in Pittsburgh headed for Florida. He put the growler with other bottles in a box under bed in his RV and going down the road he "heard the explosions". At the next stop, he checked and had several bottle bombs go off. The growler exploded but several 12 oz. bottles exploded also. My guess is that all the bouncing around in the RV caused the explosions because my bottles from the same batch never exploded. So, don't shake them up while they're carbing and you'll be fine. Just my personal experience..,.
 
The bottles are cool thats for sure, but why would one want to carb up in one?

If its just easyier to take to partys or something there is a safer way. You could bottle carb some 22oz beer bottles. Once they are done just pour the carbed bottles into the Growler and seal it up. It should hold the carb level of what the beer is pretty well, and a bit safer.

We are all adults so we can make our own decisions. I think we can say with a fair amount of confidence that it is not the safest way. I sure as hell wouldn't want someone to get hurt with a bad bottle after them following my suggestion that its a safe a reliable way to bottle your beer.
 
RukusDM said:
We are all adults so we can make our own decisions. I think we can say with a fair amount of confidence that it is not the safest way. I sure as hell wouldn't want someone to get hurt with a bad bottle after them following my suggestion that its a safe a reliable way to bottle your beer.
Click to expand...

That's why I say it's a;

russian-roulette.jpg


You've done a lot to prove what I've been trying to explain for years about the process of carbonation, and the pressures it entails during the process. And again I commend you for taking your time to do it. :mug:

But we all know the truth about advice/warnings, and how much they work...

surgeon_general_warning_01.gif


*shrug*
 
Thanks for the discussion, I will concede that it is not the safest (or possibly smartest) thing to do.

I'm not in a rush to find out what can go wrong, just looking for an answer amid the conflicting opinions and available data.

Ruckus, can I assume that carbing beer in the 22oz Bombers (nice name) is okay?
 
I only use 22's now that I make more beer, and don't have an assistant.
I also store them 12 up in cardboard wine or 22 oz. beer cases for safety.
 
Super64 said:
Thanks for the discussion, I will concede that it is not the safest (or possibly smartest) thing to do.

I'm not in a rush to find out what can go wrong, just looking for an answer amid the conflicting opinions and available data.

Ruckus, can I assume that carbing beer in the 22oz Bombers (nice name) is okay?
Click to expand...

I have not read of any issues with any real beer bottles at this time. The only question would be if it is a screw top or not. Not sure if they come in a pop off style or not as I've never really looked.

I would like to do it if the caps were the proper style, but I don't normally purchase beer in that size, however I may just to get a stock built up. I'm not sure if my local brew shop carries them by the case or not. I know the brew shop ones are pop caps.

With such a nice bottle though, you could condition large bottles and fill the growler up from the conditioned bottles and cap it, and take it to a party or a friends. That is a nice bottle :)
 
That is just legalspeak to not carbonate in growlers. I have been using growlers for carbing my beer for 3 years now with no issues. Am I rolling the dice? Maybe. Do I have a reason to stop at this point? Not really. If I can shorten by bottling time and have a convenient container for transport, then I can't see any reason why not to.
 
RukusDM said:
notice in the description Brown glass, two-liter German growlers are a handsome way to package and transport homebrew. Swing-top closure with ceramic lid and heavy-duty metal handle. Doesn't say carbonate.

This is always a sensitive area when this is questioned. The folks here will give the boiler plate answer because they don't want to see anyone get hurt.
Click to expand...

Like I said, I never thought about the relative strength of the glass itself. I've never had a problem with over carbing before while bottle conditioning. But this thread has me a little concerned. So I emailed Northern Brewer to get more specifics from them or from the manufacturer of the bottle itself. I'll let you folks know what I find out.

Funny, my biggest concern was whether or not the large rubber gasket on the thing would actually hold pressure and if the beer would properly carb, not whether the growler would hold too much pressure.
 
Wow. I heard back from Northern Brewer much faster than I thought I would. First my email to them, then their response:

Hello to the folks at Northern Brewer:

I have a questions about one of the products you sell that I received as a Christmas gift last month. It is the 2L growler with the romantic handle:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewi.../bottles/2-liter-growler-romantic-handle.html

Do the people at Northern Brewer know if it is safe to to naturally carbonate and bottle condition home brewed beer in this growler? Can this growler handle the internal pressures similar to that of a standard beer bottle used for home brewing? Clearly overcabonating is a concern for all bottle conditioning. But I'm curious if bottle conditioning should be attempted at all in this growler or if the growler should only be used to transport already carbonated beer. I'm trying to better define the word "package" means in the description of this item on it's web listing.

So I'm curious if Northern brewer has any specs on the glass or manufacture of this bottle. If not, could I get the contact information for the manufacturer of this growler? Thanks.

And is there any chance I could get one of your catalogs mailed to my house? Thank you.

My contact info
Click to expand...

from Northern Brewer <[email protected]>
to [email protected]
date Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 12:53 PM
subject RE: Questions about growler
signed-by smtp.com

hide details 12:53 PM (3 minutes ago)

Hi XXXXXXXX,

Yes, it is safe to naturally carbonate in the growlers and I would recommend it. I don't have specs on the specific pressure ratings, but I would not recommend carbonating it more than a standard beer bottle. I'll have a catalog mailed out to you today.

Cheers,
Tom
Click to expand...

So there's that. At least with this specific growler, natural carbing and bottle conditioning is fine. Glad I asked. I was a little concerned after reading this thread.
 
SilentAutumn said:
Wow. I heard back from Northern Brewer much faster than I thought I would. First my email to them, then their response:





So there's that. At least with this specific growler, natural carbing and bottle conditioning is fine. Glad I asked. I was a little concerned after reading this thread.
Click to expand...

Well that is very interesting. Now you have hard info that says its ok. I wonder why they don't post that on their Product page?
 
I know this is an old thread, but I came across this link today,


Typically bottles are rated in volumes, a measure of density, while the tests are done with a given pressure. The conversion is not trivial.

Interestingly enough, I also came across a rating of 58psi for a "german growler"

Anyway, I have several growlers, but have not attempted bottle conditioning in them, but am always curious to see this topic revisited.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Wyrmwood said:
I know this is an old thread, but I came across this link today,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IqU002ai9c

Typically bottles are rated in volumes, a measure of density, while the tests are done with a given pressure. The conversion is not trivial.

Interestingly enough, I also came across a rating of 58psi for a "german growler"

Anyway, I have several growlers, but have not attempted bottle conditioning in them, but am always curious to see this topic revisited.
Click to expand...

This guy has balls. He didn't waste any time relieving the pressure, though! :D
 
Revvy said:
*shrug*

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/growler-condition-fail-237921/#post2812913
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what bearing that thread has on natural carbing in growlers designed for beer. I'm a chemist and deal with the alcohol bottles that poster is describing on a daily basis and they're not the same as beer growlers.

I've used this one:

http://www.stompthemgrapes.com/Bottles-2_Liter_Glass_Handle_Growler.html

for natural carbing many times and have never had a problem. I've had plenty of bottle bombs before (when I used to bottle), but I've never had a growler bomb.

Edit: Not saying a growler bomb CAN'T happen of course, but if you're careful about measurements, just as you should be with bottles, you should be able to carb safely in both vessels.
 
moti_mo said:
I'm not sure what bearing that thread has on natural carbing in growlers designed for beer. I'm a chemist and deal with the alcohol bottles that poster is describing on a daily basis and they're not the same as beer growlers.

I've used this one:

http://www.stompthemgrapes.com/Bottles-2_Liter_Glass_Handle_Growler.html

for natural carbing many times and have never had a problem. I've had plenty of bottle bombs before (when I used to bottle), but I've never had a growler bomb.

Edit: Not saying a growler bomb CAN'T happen of course, but if you're careful about measurements, just as you should be with bottles, you should be able to carb safely in both vessels.
Click to expand...
I think that's the "german growler" that NB says can be used for bottle conditioning, and I found a spec that it can handle 58 psi. I don't think people are really arguing that point, rather, the traditional growler you get from your local brewery to take beer home in.

Is there a physicist/chemist/mathematician in the house that can give a reasonable translation from density to pressure? That is, if a growler is rated for a given volume (2 g/l density of CO2) what psi it would be capable of handling? It has been measured/ estimated psi goes to 40+ during bottle conditioning. That could probably go much higher depending on fermentable sugars, temperature, air pressure, et al.
 
For what it's worth if the goal is to use swingtop bottles for carbonating, I used to carbonate in the ceramic Belgian swingtop bottles that are actually for bottle conditioning from the brewery.

The issue I ran into with them (and growlers) is more of a logistics thing. Those bottles are kind of bulky and awkward and don't package as well as regular 12oz bottles or bombers. It's easy for me to move around 6 packs, 12 packs and cases of bottles but the growlers and swingtops don't fit in those boxes very well, and don't fit in my fridge as easily either.
 
weirdboy said:
For what it's worth if the goal is to use swingtop bottles for carbonating, I used to carbonate in the ceramic Belgian swingtop bottles that are actually for bottle conditioning from the brewery.

The issue I ran into with them (and growlers) is more of a logistics thing. Those bottles are kind of bulky and awkward and don't package as well as regular 12oz bottles or bombers. It's easy for me to move around 6 packs, 12 packs and cases of bottles but the growlers and swingtops don't fit in those boxes very well, and don't fit in my fridge as easily either.
Click to expand...

i think people are after less bottling time/fewer bottles.
 

Similar threads

mongoose33
NorthEast Brewery Tour
Replies
12
Views
2K
mongoose33
mongoose33
Indobrew1
Commercial Brewery India + Cider & Seltzer
Replies
0
Views
2K
Indobrew1
Indobrew1
R
  • Article
Starting & Maintaining a Homebrew Club
Replies
13
Views
4K
Steve3730
S
T
  • Article
The Pros and Cons of 5L Kegs
Replies
15
Views
30K
Gabriela Serrano
G
ACSlater
Maine Reluctant to sell my keezer, but...
Replies
0
Views
787
ACSlater
ACSlater

Latest posts

Back
Top