Gluten Free Birthday Barleywine

OK, I am going to try and look at how this beer SHOULD end up, and hopefully that will bring us somewhat closer to finding what you want. Below, I will try to list as much sugar and fermentability info that I can and we should be able to add it up to what this beer comes out as...

Minimash
6#millet 30 pts @ 75% fermentability 7.5 remain
3#red rice 15pts @ 80% fermentability 3 remain
1/2# whole quinoa 2.5pts @ 75% fermentability .625 remain
mash 145-150 for 1 hour
sparge 165

4#dememera sugar 176 PPG or 35.2pts @ 96% fermentability 1.4 remain
1# caramelized honey 35 PPG or 7pts @ uh...40% fermentability 4.2 remain
2# honey 70 PPG or 14pts @ 75% fermentability 3.5 remain
3# Amber Candi sugar 96 PPG, or 19.2pts @ 67% fermentability 6.4 remain
1#5oz rice malt syrup (the size the jar comes in) 47 PPG, or 9.4pts @ 75% fermentability 2.35 remain
1 banana Uh... 1pt @ 85% fermentability .15 remain

OK, so I come up with 133.3pts or 1.1333 for a SG.

FG should be... 29.1pts or 1.030.

If ANYONE AT ALL sees something wrong with my math, or one of my complete guesses, please let me know.

wow, thanks! how do you find all of that?

InfiniteThought said:

wow, thanks! how do you find all of that?

Click to expand...

Either stuff I already knew, or complete guesses.

The grains are a toss up, I gave them a low value for sugars, but if you get them to convert well it could be higher.
The carmelized honey depends a lot on how you roast it I would think.
I have no idea how much sugar a banana has.

The rest is info I could find from various sources.

EDIT: Let other people weigh in, in case I did something dumb. Otherwise, it seems like a good ending gravity. Check the "Remain" numbers for yourself and make sure the highest numbers are what you want the most taste of in your beer.

lets see, a normal large banana has approximately 15 g of carbohydrate, not sure how much of it is fermentable but that is so little I am not sure that it really matters. I usually get fairly poor conversions on the grain because they are not malted so low values would be right. I think ill add just a few oz more Candi to bump it back up to 1.140, just so I don't have to mess with my hop balance again, plus I like round numbers.

With an estimated OG that high, there are fermentation issues to deal with. Revvy does a good job of going over them in his Barleywine thread, but I will cover the basics.

1. Lots of Oxygen - Aerate the crap out of your fermenter to begin with and again 12hrs into the ferment.

2. Craploads of yeast - Since you are using all dry yeast, pitch more than one packet and make sure to rehydrate. Mr Malty has a good calculator.

3. Staggered sugar additions - Wait to add those sugars until fermentation is rolling, I like doing them 3, 5, 7 days into fermentation, with 1/3 of each sugar added each of those days.

And...that's all I can think of for now.

InfiniteThought said:

lets see, a normal large banana has approximately 15 g of carbohydrate, not sure how much of it is fermentable but that is so little I am not sure that it really matters. I usually get fairly poor conversions on the grain because they are not malted so low values would be right. I think ill add just a few oz more Candi to bump it back up to 1.140, just so I don't have to mess with my hop balance again, plus I like round numbers.

Click to expand...

I wouldnt worry too much about round numbers, since I was just guessing on a lot of it anyway. With a big ole beer, you don't have too much to worry about with hop balance, just make it as complex as you like and hit it with at least 50IBUs.

I made an edit to the banana, it was too high before. OG and FG were adjusted too.

I believe bananas affect mouthfeel because they are high in glycerin and most of the aroma will be "cooked" of by an active fermentation in the primary. They are an old trick for adding body to fruit wines without having a large impact on flavor. I'd have to do some research to find the recommended amounts though, which would probably be different for a beer anyways.

I am going to use a yeast cake of Nottinghams that will be from a blackberry ale, and a small starter of T-58 and in secondary a starter of CL23 wine yeast no underpitching for me.

DKershner said:

Minimash
6#millet 30 pts @ 75% fermentability 7.5 remain
3#red rice 15pts @ 80% fermentability 3 remain
1/2# whole quinoa 2.5pts @ 75% fermentability .625 remain
mash 145-150 for 1 hour
sparge 165

FG should be... 29.1pts or 1.030.

If ANYONE AT ALL sees something wrong with my math, or one of my complete guesses, please let me know.

Click to expand...

Aren't the grains unmalted? I would think he could save himself 30 minutes and just do a steep with these to get color and some grain characteristics? Did I miss something about amylase or anything else here?

yes I am going to mash with amylase. not sure if that was clear earlier, sorry.

Lcasanova said:

Aren't the grains unmalted? I would think he could save himself 30 minutes and just do a steep with these to get color and some grain characteristics? Did I miss something about amylase or anything else here?

Click to expand...

The way I understand it, amylase is somewhat of a replacement for the malting process turning starches (complex carbohydrates/sugars) to sugars (simple sugars). Therefore some sugar would be created through the process, just not as much as if they were malted.

I could be wrong.

EDIT: I could have also read your post wrong...and you were asking if he was using amylase.

DKershner said:

The way I understand it, amylase is somewhat of a replacement for the malting process turning starches (complex carbohydrates/sugars) to sugars (simple sugars). Therefore some sugar would be created through the process, just not as much as if they were malted.

I could be wrong.

EDIT: I could have also read your post wrong...and you were asking if he was using amylase.

Click to expand...

completely right from what I understand, GF grains are extremely poor in enzymes and they just be added in some way. adding the amylase to the straight grain is a substitute for malting, just not a good one.

DKershner said:

The way I understand it, amylase is somewhat of a replacement for the malting process turning starches (complex carbohydrates/sugars) to sugars (simple sugars). Therefore some sugar would be created through the process, just not as much as if they were malted.

I could be wrong.

EDIT: I could have also read your post wrong...and you were asking if he was using amylase.

Click to expand...

No, you read it right. I'm just curious to see how much gets converted...I have a 5 gallon pail of sorghum berries... I'm just thinking though, if not much sugar is going to be converted, wouldn't he be better off roasting and steeping them instead?

ah, but couldn't you do both? you could roast and mash with the enzyme, since we are relying on adding enzyme we don't have to worry about protecting it in the "grain"

Lcasanova said:

No, you read it right. I'm just curious to see how much gets converted...I have a 5 gallon pail of sorghum berries... I'm just thinking though, if not much sugar is going to be converted, wouldn't he be better off roasting and steeping them instead?

Click to expand...

Starches are also known as unfermentable sugars (well, to most yeasts). Not using amylase would increase the number of starches and therefore increase the FG. Whether or not this is a good thing depends on whether or not you want a higher FG.

The more sugar that gets converted, the lower the FG and the higher the ABV. It also would make the beer taste drier.

Note that if you don't crack the grain and steep, the answer is different, as there would not really be many starches or sugars being released, just color and maybe a slight amount of flavor.

I am having a hard time cracking the millet, I need a better grain mill. mine is really, really old hand crank and I run the millet through it 3-4 times and only a small percentage is actually damaged. whatever, Ill figure it out.

InfiniteThought said:

I am having a hard time cracking the millet, I need a better grain mill. mine is really, really old hand crank and I run the millet through it 3-4 times and only a small percentage is actually damaged. whatever, Ill figure it out.

Click to expand...

Is it a Corona? I think Revvy has one of those if I am not mistaken. Maybe he can help...Revvy, where'd ya go?

I seem to remember something about flat washers...

this is some old thing, got it for 5 bucks at the antique store. I think that it might actually be a sausage maker but it does buckwheat perfectly. I am trying to find a finer screen to put over the end, then it will work.

edit: this thread is the top google result for "gluten free barleywine" go us!

InfiniteThought said:

edit: this thread is the top google result for "gluten free barleywine" go us!

Click to expand...

If you take google's suggestion on spelling, another page takes the #1 spot. Check out the shakparo ale, it sounds somewhat similar to my next experimental batch.
http://www.sprecherbrewery.com/beer.php?cat=5

that shakparo does sounds good. wouldn't mind some of that myself

so, flavorings...
T-58 yeast will give a little peppery flavor, I was thinking of 1/2 gram grains of paradise and oak cubes soaked in red wine in secondary. what do you think?

InfiniteThought said:

so, flavorings...
T-58 yeast will give a little peppery flavor, I was thinking of 1/2 gram grains of paradise and oak cubes soaked in red wine in secondary. what do you think?

Click to expand...

If you soak the cubes, make sure to add the wine as well.

Other than that, sounds good.

yum. Alright, I am going to write these changes down in my brewbook and then get some lunch. thanks for your help and I will definitely save you and the wag (couldn't remember which) a bottle

InfiniteThought said:

that shakparo does sounds good. wouldn't mind some of that myself

Click to expand...

I've had a hard time finding that one. They have Mbege at the local beer stores by me and I cannot stand that beer. The aftertaste is waayyyy too sweet. One-two sips max on that beer, then it's down the drain for me.

sounds kinda like the green's tripple blonde. it tastes like carbonated wort, couldn't drink so I put it in a slug trap and the slugs wouldn't take it.

InfiniteThought said:

sounds kinda like the green's tripple blonde. it tastes like carbonated wort, couldn't drink so I put it in a slug trap and the slugs wouldn't take it.

Click to expand...

My GF really likes that one...just to give you an idea what I am dealing with.

really? its so sweet. well, to each their own i guess. I am more in favor of a little more balanced taste, sweetness AND bitterness. or maybe I just had a bad bottle of the greens maybe I should give it another chance.

InfiniteThought said:

really? its so sweet. well, to each their own i guess. I am more in favor of a little more balanced taste, sweetness AND bitterness. or maybe I just had a bad bottle of the greens maybe I should give it another chance.

Click to expand...

Not likely...she likes MUCH sweeter things than me. I didn't think the tripel was very good, although I liked the amber and the dubbel would be good without the sorghum flavor.

I agree with you completely on the others, I thought that the amber was good and the dubbel was okay. So far the amber is my favorite commercial GF beer. I had a question for you, if I add sugar in increments during fermentation I can never get a true OG ready right?

InfiniteThought said:

I agree with you completely on the others, I thought that the amber was good and the dubbel was okay. So far the amber is my favorite commercial GF beer. I had a question for you, if I add sugar in increments during fermentation I can never get a true OG ready right?

Click to expand...

Correct, but the sugar is easy to calculate how much it will add to the beer. I just take an OG on everything that I added pre ferment and then add in what the sugar will do.

you said earlier that when i add the sugar I should add some of each kind, meaning don't add all the dememera on one day, then add the Candi sugar on a different day but rather that I should mix all the sugar additives together and add them a smallish amount at a time. did I understand that correctly?

InfiniteThought said:

you said earlier that when i add the sugar I should add some of each kind, meaning don't add all the dememera on one day, then add the Candi sugar on a different day but rather that I should mix all the sugar additives together and add them a smallish amount at a time. did I understand that correctly?

Click to expand...

You can do either...but I would actually add the sugars from most difficult to least difficult to eat. Which would be...honey, dememera, candi, I think.

just racked my fresh hop IPA into secondary and man does it smell good! Cascade and Mt Hood in excess.

I have been doing some reading about Candi sugar and now I am confused. Candi sugar is inverted and processed sugar, shouldn't that make it more fermentable them demerera? Demerera will require the yeast to produce invertase making it harder to eat and contains many more impurities that will not ferment...at least that is what I understand.

Hey look...It was sitting in the similar threads box below. Although not a BW, it is an old ale. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/gluten-free-old-ale-49322/ it may have some ideas.

hey thanks Revvy there is some info there for sure.

InfiniteThought said:

I have been doing some reading about Candi sugar and now I am confused. Candi sugar is inverted and processed sugar, shouldn't that make it more fermentable them demerera? Demerera will require the yeast to produce invertase making it harder to eat and contains many more impurities that will not ferment...at least that is what I understand.

Click to expand...

Ease of eating and how fermentable something is is not the same thing. That being said, I was guessing on the dememera sugar, so you could be right, although for sugar, the candi sugar is really not that fermentable. At least that particular brand isnt, the point is the flavor instead.

this is suddenly making sense again. I caramelized some honey today just to see how it would go and now I have a jar full of beautiful light red honey. I am not sure how far I need to let it go but I think this will work. It seems to be a lot thicker then it started as well, in addition to the color change. Also planning on making Candi sugar today, gonna make it ahead of time so that I have more chances to make it again when/ if it all goes to hell.

so I made the candi sugar and it is a rich red, I don't think it is quite dark enough or modified enough so I am going to caramelize a little bit more then a pound of the honey to make up for it. Between caramelized red honey, red candi sugar and red rice I am definitely seeing a color trend emerge for this beer.

InfiniteThought said:

so I made the candi sugar and it is a rich red, I don't think it is quite dark enough or modified enough so I am going to caramelize a little bit more then a pound of the honey to make up for it. Between caramelized red honey, red candi sugar and red rice I am definitely seeing a color trend emerge for this beer.

Click to expand...

Did you roast the red rice? I got some black rice and tried a test steep with it and I barely got any color from it. After roasting it I got a whole lot more color.