Westvleteren 12 clone competition & swap

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Damnit my computer died sometime yesterday so I wasn't able to check up on the results immediately. Congrads KingBrianI, interestingly iirc, your recipe was done with stepped sugar additions correct?
I was totally surprised that my traditional did the better of the both Saq's and Freeze's.
And more surprisingly is that Saq's new world recipe bested the traditional ones. All in all this was a fun run and I hope we get another swap/comp sometime next year and see how our process evolves.

:mug:
 
Damnit my computer died sometime yesterday so I wasn't able to check up on the results immediately. Congrads KingBrianI, interestingly iirc, your recipe was done with stepped sugar additions correct?
I was totally surprised that my traditional did the better of the both Saq's and Freeze's.
And more surprisingly is that Saq's new world recipe bested the traditional ones. All in all this was a fun run and I hope we get another swap/comp sometime next year and see how our process evolves.

:mug:

Thanks, I added the candi syrup at high krausen and the candi sugar a day later. I think what might have given my traditional a bit more complexity is that I did several large decoctions, whereas I think mostly everyone else did only a small mashout decoction. It will be interesting to see the tasting notes to see whether the difference was evident. Saq, do you plan on summarizing the findings from the different methods is some form? I think it would be very interesting to study.
 
KingBrianI,
Yes, I'm going to be pouring through the recipes today in addition to drinking some of the extra bottles we didn't get through at the competition (almost all only needed the one bottle with 3 judges).
Its going to be tough though, because there were so many similarities. All of them were fairly good representations of the style of Dark Strong Ale as compared to Westvleteren. That being said there were a lot of differences in body, flavor characteristics etc. I'll see if I can pull anything out of the recipe sheets.
 
KingBrianI,
Yes, I'm going to be pouring through the recipes today in addition to drinking some of the extra bottles we didn't get through at the competition (almost all only needed the one bottle with 3 judges).
Its going to be tough though, because there were so many similarities. All of them were fairly good representations of the style of Dark Strong Ale as compared to Westvleteren. That being said there were a lot of differences in body, flavor characteristics etc. I'll see if I can pull anything out of the recipe sheets.

Great, I look forward to seeing it. Drinking through the leftover bottles sounds like fun!:drunk:
 
Thanks, I added the candi syrup at high krausen and the candi sugar a day later. I think what might have given my traditional a bit more complexity is that I did several large decoctions, whereas I think mostly everyone else did only a small mashout decoction. It will be interesting to see the tasting notes to see whether the difference was evident. Saq, do you plan on summarizing the findings from the different methods is some form? I think it would be very interesting to study.

Well I went with a double decoction, though unfortunately screwed up and boiled for 90 mins and had to add additional sugar at high krausen to make up for the undershot OG.
But yeah I agree, I can only assume a heavy decoction schedule and 120 min boil are key to get the complexity in the beer which you managed to achieve. :)

I'll be interested also in his summary of findings, especially since he'll be mulling over the recipes while imbibing the remainder of the libation. :drunk:
 
Thanks, I added the candi syrup at high krausen and the candi sugar a day later. I think what might have given my traditional a bit more complexity is that I did several large decoctions, whereas I think mostly everyone else did only a small mashout decoction. It will be interesting to see the tasting notes to see whether the difference was evident. Saq, do you plan on summarizing the findings from the different methods is some form? I think it would be very interesting to study.

Well, I did a pretty big decoction on mine, from 122 to 146, then up to 156. although my protein rest was a bit long (it was my first decoct) so that might have screwed some stuff up. I would love to see tasting notes though.
 
I think one of the biggest indicators of flavor is going to be percentage of gravity by sugar. I did about 13% in my new world vs 17% in my traditional. Considering we don't know how much sugar they add this could be an important factor. Some of the entries did taste a little thin.
 
Ok, a couple of notes from reading through the recipe sheets and the score cards. I don't have Bokonon's entries so the summary is a little incomplete.

The good:
They were all very good examples of a westvleteren 12 style quadrupel. Aside from one flat one and one that didn't seem to carb up well they were without serious flaws.

The bad:
The differences aren't significantly pronounced and peoples entries are similar enough you could write all the variation between #1 and #8 to the brewers personal influences and minor things like water profile, fermentation temperature and sugar recipe.

What we learned

Aroma

Not much to say here as everyones beer (even the flat ones didn't do too bad) had some great aromas. If anything the Westvleteren was par for the course. I think the recipe is pretty hard to do wrong (barring defects/infections) in the aroma department. ALL of them had some complex malts with significant and wonderful cocoa notes. Lots had some dried/candied red/brown fruit, and some had a nice candied/burnt banana. Two had some vegetal/bean-ish notes which weren't bad, as the Westvleteren actually had this character as well. Not sure what causes this, but I think everyone did well here.

Appearance

Color
Most of the entries were lighter than the real thing. As I suspected 80 SRM is insufficient, even with putting all 3lbs of candi sugar in at the beginning of the boil. I believe my 3rd batch (which went into the Cuvee de Tomme project) was nearly spot on and that had 3lbs of 160 SRM D2 sugar. My New World recipe (26 srm) was close but still a bit lighter. One of Bokonon's entries (probably new world) was darker than mine and really close to the darkness of the real thing. If you want to come close to the "real thing" shoot for 30-32 SRM minimum.
However, they were all MORE THAN sufficiently dark for entry as a 18E and I didn't feel that any of them were too light. Your personal preference here.

Clarity
We ran the gamut here, some hazy entries, some fairly clear entries and two nearly brilliant entries and nobody used finings. The real thing was pretty clear despite is considerably dark color. Only the really hazy ones probably got a ding for being too hazy, but they didn't get dinged as badly as ones with carbonation problems.

Carbonation
For the most part everyone scored perfect here aside from two with issues. The real thing was fairly inline with those that entered beers as 2.8-3 vol/CO2. Interestingly my New World I did at 2.6 vol/co2 and it did well enough

Flavor

Bitterness
This varied little and more or less close enough. That being said a lot of the entries were 4-5 months old at this point. If you want it drinkable younger maybe cut the bitterness down to about 30-32 IBU. Again your personal preference.
Interesting note: A few people had 120 minute boils & hop additions for their traditional and KingBrianI had a 60 minute hop addition. I don't think it mattered at all.

Hoppiness
This style is not supposed to have any real noticable hop characters and nobodies did. Whats interesting about this is that KingBrianI had some 15 and 0 minute hop additions whereas most other people's last hop additions were 25-45. Again giving it 4-5 months and the low IBUs is going to render this aspect moot. You could make your brewday easier by having less additions, maybe not even bothering with finishing hops.

Overall Flavor

Some were a little lighter in malt flavor/biscuit/bread but none got too heavy, I think the amount of sugar is part of the deal here. We ranged from 12-19% of the gravity from sugar, though its hard to just look and see what peoples efficiencies were. Some very un-scientific measurements based on the data we have makes me think somewhere in the middle is a nice balance of malt/sugar flavors and body. A good number of the beers were similar to Westvleteren, with some with more malt/body and some with less malt/body. I think 14-16% is a good target, and you can probably get away with more sugar if you do a big decoction on a traditional recipe.

All had a good amount of esters (within style) but some were a little less than Westvleteren and I think one got dinged for being "too clean". On the recipe sheets I'm also noticing a near correlation in lower fermentation temperatures with reduced esters comments. First place had a fermentation temp of 82, second place had a fermentation temp of 84, and third place had a fermentation temp of 81. A lot of others only got to 80. I think this aspect is pretty important and 82-84f is probably the ideal target.

As with the aroma, all of the beers had a very significant nice cocoa note.

Mouthfeel
As mentioned in the Overall Flavor aspect, some were a little lighter in body and richness than Westvleteren 12, but were well represented for the style . However none of them were cloyingly sweet nor too dry and fairly well balanced overall. Hard to say here as the grainbills and proportions are all fairly similar. Given that a new world recipe did so well against so many traditionals I think that some residual body from the grain must be at play, large decoctions will help this aspect but must be balanced with the amount of sugar.

Overall
Overall this was a really good competition and project, with most people's scores being 38 or higher which is "Excellent" by the BJCP. I think everyone that participated and didn't have issues have beers that are worthy of any competition, and the ones that did have issues were fairly minor and could be easily fixed.

My takeaway from this is that both the new world and traditional recipes can get pretty damn close! I am glad I decided to do a new world recipe as I feel it provided valuable input for judging, but will probably continue to brew the traditional recipe in the future. When I do The Pious #3 (last one didn't count because it went into the bourbon barrel for souring right away) I will go with the same recipe I have posted in the other Westvleteren thread but adjust the sugar to 15% of grist.
 
Here is what I think The Pious #3 recipe will be and I think it will be pretty damn close to the real thing.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 8.27 gal
Estimated OG: 1.092 SG
Estimated Color: 33.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 35.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 42.11 %
8.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 42.11 %
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (90 min) Hops 25.7 IBU
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] (20 min) Hops 7.0 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.80 %] (20 min)Hops 2.4 IBU
3.00 lb Dark 2 Belgian Candi Syrup (160.0 SRM) Sugar 15.79 %
1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) Yeast-Ale
1lbs sugar added to beginning of boil, 1lbs added to last 5, 1lbs added in secondary.

Mash Schedule: Decoction Mash, Double
Total Grain Weight: 16.00 lb
----------------------------
Decoction Mash, Double
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
10 min Protein Rest Add 32.00 qt of water at 137.5 F 132.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 8.79 qt of mash and boil it 151.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 4.85 qt of mash and boil it 159.0 F
 
Everyone who participated and wants their scoresheets back please PM me your mailing information so I can return it all.
KingBrianI also keep in mind I need a shipping location for your bottle of Westvleteren 12.
 
Sorry I couldn't get my recipe info over in time. The 1st one I hand wrote and it got destroyed by UPS and then I forgot to send over another one. On saturday I was busy brewing 7.5bbl with my local club so I didn't see the messages till late.

#8921 was my "old"
#7132 was my "new"

My two were essentially the same beer but for the new I pulled off some of the wort and steeped specialty grains (and then boiled) and added those to the fermenter

I didn't have the best ingredients for it so I came up with something I thought would be good enough. Also I had pulled the fermenters out of the chest freezer to rack and then was called out of town so they ended up sitting in the garage when it was 90-105 outside so I'm sure that kicked up the yeast to work on whatever else they could.

The carbonation issue was probably due to the fact that I was in a rush to bottle the second batch of bottles from the keg since it was a really busy time when I had to send them off.


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 15.97 gal
Estimated OG: 1.087 SG
Estimated Color: 20.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 33.8 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 120 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
16 lbs Best Malz Pilsner Malt (2.0 SRM) Grain 49.23 %
8 lbs 8.0 oz Great Western 2 Row Malt (2.0 SRM) Grain 26.15 %
3 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 10.77 %
1.70 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 19.7 IBU
2.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.40 %] (30 min) Hops 11.3 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 2.7 IBU
1.00 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
4 lbs 8.0 oz Candi Syrup, Homemade Dark (100.0 SRM) Sugar 13.85 %
1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [Starter 3000 Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 28.00 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 8.75 gal of water at 164.8 F 151.0 F


Notes:
------
Will add sugars after 2-3 days of fermentation. Will adjust amount of sugars to get 1.090 gravity
One fermenter will get straight wort while the other will get an addition of a steeped tea with some combination of Caramunich, Biscuit, Aromatic, Special B

Made a 2L starter on 6/2. 6/5 stuck it in fridge. 6/6 decanted and added another 2L of wort on top
In chest freezer: old on the left, new on the right

6/7/09 5:45pm pitched yeast
6/9/09 3:00pm added 1 quart (2.5lbs) of homemade candi syrup to each fermenter. changed cooling set point to 75
6/9/09 8:00pm "old" fermenter blowing off a bit. cleaned top of bucket and airlock. temp control reading 69
6/10/09 8:40am temp control reading 71. both buckets blowing off
6/10/09 10:00pm temp control reading 72. both buckets blowing off. set control to heat to 75
6/11/09 1:45pm temp control reading 75. no blow off. set cool to 85 and heat to 82
6/12/09 9:30am temp control reading 79. no blow off.
6/13/09 11:00am temp control reading 81. no blow off. set cool to 79
7/21/09 Racked old into keg and 1 gal jug to get funked out. old FG = 1.012
8/27/09 Racked new into keg and 1 gal jug to get funked out (added innoculated oak cubes) FG=1.012
 
Saq: how gradual escalation from pitching temp to $82F* do you suggest? How many hours should this escalation take you think?

Thanks,
Marius
 
kingoslo
Just let the yeast heat it up naturally, usually takes about 8-12 hours from 65f pitching temp.
Also, this thread is more about the competition :) Recipe kind of stuff should go over in the other Westvleteren thread :)
 
kingoslo
Just let the yeast heat it up naturally, usually takes about 8-12 hours from 65f pitching temp.
Also, this thread is more about the competition :) Recipe kind of stuff should go over in the other Westvleteren thread :)


I am sorry about the thread issue. I did not know. I will continue the discussion there.M
 
Great thread with lots of good info.

I gotta ask though, what is the point of adding sugar after the boil has ended?
The only reason I could see is the beers arent drying out enough and the yeast would need a kick in the pants.
Nothing I've seen in this thread tells me there is an issue with the beers not finishing.

What happened to the Special B?
Wasnt there an addition of this at one point?
I know BLAM doesnt list Special B but depending on what the Monks are doing behind closed doors this could be one of the missing pieces.

I made candi sugar Saturday and brewed something similar to this over the weekend.
I'll keep an eye on this thread as the beer finishes up.

Here is my grain bill.

41.0 8.00 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.037 2
41.0 8.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) Canada 1.036 2
2.6 0.50 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120
10.3 2.00 lbs. Candi Sugar (amber) Generic 1.046 75
5.1 1.00 lbs. Cane Sugar Generic 1.046 0

I toasted 1/2 pound each of pils and pale
Added all sugars at the start of the boil and boiled for two hours.
Mashed at 125 then 147 for 2 hours.
 
You started in the wrong thread! We discuss these things as well as others in this thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/westvleteren-12-group-brew-swap-121429/

Short answer: Brew Like A Monk states directly from Brother Joris, head brewer at Westvleteren, they only use pale 2row and pilsner malt and sugar to achieve their magnificent flavor. The many times I have brewed the "Traditional" recipe it has come more or less exactly in line with the real thing. That being said the "New World" recipe is also nearly indistinguishable from the real thing too. It is replicating what the monks do with decoctions with specialty grain. Even though my New World recipe won this competition I personally prefer the Traditional recipe.
Also, the late additions of sugar are to keep some of the volatile flavors that the dark sugar has. I prefer to put it all in the boil kettle so that it dissolves completely. I tried it in the fermenter one time and found some unconverted in the trub. I don't think the Westmalle yeast needs help drying out if you get the temps properly.
 
You started in the wrong thread! We discuss these things as well as others in this thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/westvleteren-12-group-brew-swap-121429/

Short answer: Brew Like A Monk states directly from Brother Joris, head brewer at Westvleteren, they only use pale 2row and pilsner malt and sugar to achieve their magnificent flavor. The many times I have brewed the "Traditional" recipe it has come more or less exactly in line with the real thing. That being said the "New World" recipe is also nearly indistinguishable from the real thing too. It is replicating what the monks do with decoctions with specialty grain. Even though my New World recipe won this competition I personally prefer the Traditional recipe.
Also, the late additions of sugar are to keep some of the volatile flavors that the dark sugar has. I prefer to put it all in the boil kettle so that it dissolves completely. I tried it in the fermenter one time and found some unconverted in the trub. I don't think the Westmalle yeast needs help drying out if you get the temps properly.


An exclamation point.............really?

Nobody knows what sugars the monks are actually using and without knowing that subtle additions of specialty grains might be just what you're looking for.

Have you brewed both a decoction version and an infusion mash version to see what differences (if any) are in the finished beer?

Also, the Westy monks probably get different yeast counts every time as they are relying on Westmalles yeast and that could be from more than one of Westmalles beers or be 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation.
 
Yep. This thread was for the competition which is over. The other thread is more general recipe work and discussions on other aspects of making a westvleteren style quad.

Westmalle runs a full blown very sophisticated yeast laboratory similar to White Labs, they were one of the really early ones to master this delicate art. I'm sure the pitching rates for what Westvleteren gets are very consistent and most definitely not from one of their fermentation tanks.

I have done four Traditional Westvleteren brewings with D1 and D2 sugar, small decoctions and large decoctions. I think that a blend of 50% D1 and 50% D2 with two good sized decoctions is the way to perfect this recipe.

Other people in the competition did decoctions or infusions and were compared in the judging. You would have to read the other thread to see what peoples specifications were for their mash.
The whole point of this competition was to see what small differences contributed towards what flavors to try and perfect this beer, and we even had someone act as a control by submitting a totally off the wall recipe that wasn't anywhere close.

Those that did follow the recipe had strikingly similar beers with subtle differences, with the control beer being easily detectable as not tasting anything similar to the others. All of the beers were good and VERY similar to the real Westvleteren 12 which was tasted in the competition as well.
 
saq, hate to keep bugging you via PM so I thought I'd post up here. Any idea on when you'll get the prize shipped out? I've been standing in my yard waiting for UPS every day since you told me you'd ship it and my neighbors are getting weirded out. It's been months since the competition! :D
 
Sorry sorry delays excuses etc I know.
I'll be packing it up soon since I finally have a decent box I can put a single bottle in! I'll probably be scanning the judging sheets and emailing them out too.
 
No, but they probably do. They admit they have some secrets they keep. Again, this point and many other are in the wonderful thread debating the merits of different ways to make great quads which can be found here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/westvleteren-12-group-brew-swap-121429/

However, this thread does remind me I totally want to host another Westvleteren 12/Quad comp. I'm sure I'll be able to procure two more bottles of the real thing (one for the judging and one for the winner) with the same format as last time. Say beginning of August? That leaves plenty of time to brew and age!

Who's in?
 
Mines in the fermenter at 75 (brewed this past Sunday)
I went with "Rochefort" yeast though. After reading the characteristics of both "Rochefort" and "Westmalles" yeast (and the LHBS not having the Westmalle) I decided that they really arent that much different if the fermentation is kept under 75 degrees or so.

I guess this should be posted in the other thread but it is a bit odd that there is no mention at all of decoction..........?

"quote" on the yeast is because the strain could have changed a bit since Wyeast/White Labs got their original sources.
 
No, but they probably do. They admit they have some secrets they keep. Again, this point and many other are in the wonderful thread debating the merits of different ways to make great quads which can be found here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/westvleteren-12-group-brew-swap-121429/

However, this thread does remind me I totally want to host another Westvleteren 12/Quad comp. I'm sure I'll be able to procure two more bottles of the real thing (one for the judging and one for the winner) with the same format as last time. Say beginning of August? That leaves plenty of time to brew and age!

Who's in?

So pretty much like last year, which was what around july? I'm totally in, I enjoyed the whole process, including the swap. Eager to get my score sheet back, though. :p
 
I don't know if I can get around to brewing it in time. I've got thesis deadline around that time, then maybe moving. but I'd love to do version 2 of this.
 
Everyones judging sheets have gone out. After looking at them yesterday I am again reminded at how good most of the beers were. Also, how similar yet different a lot of them were as well. I think for this year I will get someone to steward and have them randomly pick the lineup for the judging which will include the real Westvleteren 12 getting slipped into the mix. I should probably get some more judges too so I can open up the comp more, maybe I'll try to get one of the registered AHA homebrew clubs I'm in to host and make it a bigger deal :)
 
Would it be kosher to resubmit the beer I already brewed? I'm going to get some carb tabs so it's not, y'know, completely flat and I'd like to see how that changes your perception (and also, I don't brew enough to justify making the same batch twice when I'll opnly have made like 3 beers in between)

(Yeah, I don't brew often :()
 
I'd love to get in on this if it's happing for 2010. I just bottled a batch of your new world recipe...tastes very promising.
 
Doesn't look like its happening this year. I'm getting married in a month so I'm fairly busy for the next few months. Perhaps if we can drum up interest we'll have a Quad Comp next Spring, maybe I can register it with my club and get it to be an official AHA Club Only Comp, that would be awesome.
 
If it's a COC then I'll have to compete against my club, and then I'll lose. So let's not do that.

And congrats, saq!
 
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