Eliminate HLT?

I'm just starting to think about an electric brewery and I was wondering if anyone has hacked a tankless water heater to use in lieu of a HLT? For example, this Rheem is under $200 and claims it can deliver water at 100 deg above ambient at roughly 1 gpm. That's pretty good, but I would imagine that you would have to disable a few safety controls to get it putting out strike water temps.

Thoughts?

gr8shandini said:

I'm just starting to think about an electric brewery and I was wondering if anyone has hacked a tankless water heater to use in lieu of a HLT? For example, this Rheem is under $200 and claims it can deliver water at 100 deg above ambient at roughly 1 gpm. That's pretty good, but I would imagine that you would have to disable a few safety controls to get it putting out strike water temps.

Thoughts?

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100 over ambient is gonna be 160-170...seems fine for strike water. Sparge water, might not be where you want but there is a huge debate over whether mash-out needs to really take place anyways.

Hell, I'd do it.

Yeah, I'm not too concerned about mashout. I don't do it now, but then again I'm batch sparging and have everything in the kettle within 15 minutes. But I guess you could also feed it with hot water from the household tank if you wanted to do it "right."

Normally, I'd have no problem blazing a trail, however, I never went too far beyond V=IR in my schooling, so I think hacking this thing without a DIY is beyond my ablilities. I was hoping someone might have had experience.

If it's electric, you could likely replace the thermostat with a PID. Then you could dial in the temp you want. You would just have to monitor output temp and restrict the flow rate if it was too low (i.e., you are supplying water faster than it can heat it to the set point).

You could probably get creative and recirculate water between the heater and a heat exchanger for a HERMS setup.

themicahmachine said:

You could probably get creative and recirculate water between the heater and a heat exchanger for a HERMS setup.

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true- you could. but thats more complicated for no reason. its like the difference between HERMS and RIMS... RIMS is more efficient at getting heat into the wort and is more straitforward to build, but it risks scorching due to sugar water coming into contact with the element directly. HERMS eliminates that scorching risk, but at the cost of slightly less efficiency / slower responding control of temperature, and slightly more complicated design.

if you are just heating clear water, theres no worry of scorching, so you might as well heat it thru direct element contact.

its not a bad idea, and actual commercial (albeit, usually smaller) breweries use tankless hot water heaters for this purpose. you can build RIMS tubes that do essentially the same thing if you dont want to buy a tankless heater.

audger said:

its not a bad idea, and actual commercial (albeit, usually smaller) breweries use tankless hot water heaters for this purpose. you can build RIMS tubes that do essentially the same thing if you dont want to buy a tankless heater.

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You can also use a cheap aluminum pot and install an element in it (or two 120v elements)...which is what I have. 8g pot, $30. Elements, $25. Two extension cords to power elements: $20.

Takes me just over half-hour to heat strike or sparge water, 6.5g of each usually.

How fast would a rims tube do this? I was actually thinking of this the other day in response to this thread.

tre9er said:

You can also use a cheap aluminum pot and install an element in it (or two 120v elements)...which is what I have. 8g pot, $30. Elements, $25. Two extension cords to power elements: $20.

Takes me just over half-hour to heat strike or sparge water, 6.5g of each usually.

How fast would a rims tube do this? I was actually thinking of this the other day in response to this thread.

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How do you regulate temp? Are you saying I could go electric BK and Electric HLT for ~100$?????

H-ost said:

How do you regulate temp? Are you saying I could go electric BK and Electric HLT for ~100$?????

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Regulate temp? I heat my strike water up to prescribed temp, then shut it off and run it into the MLT. I use a thermometer and shut it off when it's at temp.

When I used to just have a single kettle, I'd run my first runnings into an ale pale, then put my sparge water into MLT, now the kettle was empty so I could pour the first runnings into it and then run off second runnings into it.

Never had any of this "hot-side oxidation" issues either. You could use a bottling bucket with a hose on the spigot to collect first-runnings if you don't want to just pour it into the kettle, too.

I already use the bucket transfer method because I currently do not have an HLT. I understand you can just shut off the element to regulate temp for the HLT but I guess a BK would require more watching and on/off cycling if I went this route.

I am bored with bucket transferring and may just buy a pot and make my HLT electric like you described.

H-ost said:

I already use the bucket transfer method because I currently do not have an HLT. I understand you can just shut off the element to regulate temp for the HLT but I guess a BK would require more watching and on/off cycling if I went this route.

I am bored with bucket transferring and may just buy a pot and make my HLT electric like you described.

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I don't cycle my BK at all. The only reason to do this is if you're boiling *too much* liquid. My boils are close, but I either stir my hot break back down until it's done, or I add two drops of fermcap-s and the foam all disappears. The boil get's vigorous but never breaches the top. I only have 2g. of headspace in my kettle.

Wide pots are more susceptible to boilovers. Instead of making a HLT, why not use your current BK as the HLT and upgrade to a larger BK. That's what I did and I'm very glad.

I use a 15 gallon keg as my BK to brew 10 gallon batches in it. I would only trade it out to be used as a HLT if I found another sanke keg to convert. Sanke kegs are cheaper than 15 gallon SS pots are.

H-ost said:

I am not worried about boil over, I'm more worried about scorching. Is that even possible with AG? I've never looked into it before but perhaps superstitiously I have been trying to avoid it.

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If you use low watt-density elements, it shouldn't be a problem. I have some film on my high watt-density element in my BK (bought by mistake) but haven't noticed anything in the flavor of my beers.

If you're doing 220v, the RIPP elements (Camco) are ULWD so there shouldn't be any scorching. Really, no more than a stove-top or propane...there is always a really hot part of the pot no matter how you brew.

tre9er said:

Takes me just over half-hour to heat strike or sparge water, 6.5g of each usually.

How fast would a rims tube do this? I was actually thinking of this the other day in response to this thread.

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speed is only dependant on watts of power. if your rims tube has the same amount of power as your kettle, it will heat at the same rate.

the only difference being that your kettle heats the whole volume all at once, whereas the rims tube would heat a trickle of water over the course of the same amount of time. they will both heat the same overall volume (6 gallons) of water by the same overall amount (say, 70*F to 150*F).

I'm just trying to understand the RIMS/HERMS attraction. Not that it's wrong to brew this way, at all. To each his/her own. Just wondering what benefit there is for the added cost and complication? I can maintain temps pretty well in my cooler, albeit it might be 1* different on the outter edges vs. inside of the mash, but I can't really believe that makes any discernable difference.

It would be a fun build, it would be fun to use, and it would be fun to look at/brag about.

1* may not make a large difference but 1-2* fluctuation in the MLT + an inaccurate Thermometer + user error... It can all add up to around 5 or more degrees which I'm sure you agree can affect your mash.

Eliminating variables is what makes it easier to repeat a brew exactly.

tre9er said:

I'm just trying to understand the RIMS/HERMS attraction. Not that it's wrong to brew this way, at all. To each his/her own. Just wondering what benefit there is for the added cost and complication? I can maintain temps pretty well in my cooler, albeit it might be 1* different on the outter edges vs. inside of the mash, but I can't really believe that makes any discernable difference.

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It does make a difference. The benefits are reproducibility and improved efficiency. A cooler loses anywhere from 2-5 degrees over an hour. By not recirculating, the cooler becomes vertically stratified within minutes-temps at the bottom being the coolest. Reproducing an award winning beer comes down to luck in a cooler. Plus, there's that whole plastic thing. Coolers are not meant to come into direct contact with food and may have BPA or other residuals from the blow molding process.

Enzymatic activity in the 150-160 range is also very specific. A lager knows the difference between 152 and 154.

shroomzofdoom said:

It does make a difference. The benefits are reproducibility and improved efficiency. A cooler loses anywhere from 2-5 degrees over an hour. By not recirculating, the cooler becomes vertically stratified within minutes-temps at the bottom being the coolest. Reproducing an award winning beer comes down to luck in a cooler. Plus, there's that whole plastic thing. Coolers are not meant to come into direct contact with food and may have BPA or other residuals from the blow molding process.

Enzymatic activity in the 150-160 range is also very specific. A lager knows the difference between 152 and 154.

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I take temps all over my mash when I start and when I stop. In 60 minutes, I don't lose any temp in the center and lose less than a degree on the sides. There isn't an appreciable difference between the bottom and the top.

Then again, I'm not trying to reproduce award winning beer. Hell, I'm pretty much the only one who drinks my beer and 99% of anyone else who has couldn't tell the difference. That's my application, though. YMMV.

I've been using a BCS Controlled 2 vessel 240V RIMs system (MLT and BK) for the last year. RIMs let me hit my strike temp dead on every time. Efficiency is much greater. Step mashes are a piece of cake.

tre9er said:

I'm just trying to understand the RIMS/HERMS attraction. Not that it's wrong to brew this way, at all. To each his/her own. Just wondering what benefit there is for the added cost and complication? I can maintain temps pretty well in my cooler, albeit it might be 1* different on the outter edges vs. inside of the mash, but I can't really believe that makes any discernable difference.

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i like being able to punch in 152* on the panel, walk away for an hour, come back, punch in 170*, walk away for as long as i want. then when im ready i can start sparging.

there was even an emergency i had to tend to one time and i left my mash circulating for about 10 hours at 170*. when i returned, there was no temperature loss, and i just continued with my brew day as if nothing happened.

ill agree that you definately dont need a system like that. it just makes things more convienient and usually more accurate and repeatable. i also enjoy building things, and my HERMS system cost less than 50 bucks with the parts i already had, so it was not a big expense considering how much easier it makes things.