BYO Pliny the Elder Clone = Hop Extract

I just racked my Pliny the Elder clone that I got from the BYO magazine, (10 oz of hops during a 90 min boil) and tasted some of it.... wow.... I think I could bottle this up and sell it as hop extract. Has anyone else experienced this? Then I added 7 oz of dry hops for my 5 gallon brew!

Don't get me wrong, I haven't found a beer that is too hoppy. Just wondered what others thought, because this is often dubbed "Best beer I've ever made" and I can't imagine that too many people share my taste for over hopped weapons of hopstruction .

I made the All Grain version from the recipe that Vinnie published. Due to my brewing incompetence, I don't think it was "Pliny" but it was still pretty good. Have yet to taste the real thing.

Never had this beer either, but I've lusted for it. You got an extract recipe for it?

This is the recipe Vinnie gave out for cloning the elder. For anyone looking for it.
HOMEBREWING PLINY THE ELDER
8 Gallon Gross Kettle Volume / 5 Net Gallons Post Fermentation

O.G. - 1.070
T.G. - 1.011
BU's - 90-95 (actual/not calculated)
ABV - 8-8.5%
Mash Rest - 151-152
Boil Time - 90 min.
SRM - 7ish
California Ale Yeast

MALT BILL
87% 2-Row Malt
4% Crystal 45 Malt
4% Carapils (Dextrin) Malt
5% Dextrose Sugar

HOP BILL
3.50 oz CTZ 13.90% A.A. 90 min.
.75 oz CTZ 13.90% A.A. 45 min.
1.00 oz Simcoe 12.30% A.A. 30 min.
1.00 oz Centennial 8.00% A.A. 0 min.
2.50 oz Simcoe 12.30% A.A. 0 min.
1.00 oz CTZ 13.90% A.A. Dry Hop (12 to 14 Days Total)
1.00 oz Centennial 9.10% A.A. Dry Hop (12 to 14 Days Total)
1.00 oz Simcoe 12.30% A.A. Dry Hop (12 to 14 Days Total)
.25 oz CTZ 13.90% A.A. Dry Hop (5 days to go in dry hop)
.25 oz Centennial 9.10% A.A. Dry Hop (5 days to go in dry hop)
.25 oz Simcoe 12.30% A.A. Dry Hop (5 days to go in dry

That seems intense. I'm kind of a newbie though, any tips on converting that to extract? I've got a home brewing store about 2 miles from me, and if I knew what all to buy I could just go get the stuff there.

smears said:

That seems intense. I'm kind of a newbie though, any tips on converting that to extract? I've got a home brewing store about 2 miles from me, and if I knew what all to buy I could just go get the stuff there.

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You could use pale DME to replace the pale malt, and then steep the sepcialty grains. It would take something like 9 lbs of DME to replace the gravity.

That said, if you can't do a full boil I wouldn't try the recipe as is. With a partial boil you won't be able to get the high level of bitterness this beer requires (even with late extract additions). The issue is that isomerization tops out ~100 IBUs, so if you finish with 2.5 gallons the most bitterness you can get is ~50 IBUs. One work around would be to do two brews with half the malt/hops in each, and combine in the fermenter.

smears said:

That seems intense. I'm kind of a newbie though, any tips on converting that to extract? I've got a home brewing store about 2 miles from me, and if I knew what all to buy I could just go get the stuff there.

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You can drop the carapils, DME usually includes it (Briess brand does for sure). Do the biggest boil you can (you can get away with a 4 gallon boil in a 5 gallon pot with some care, watch out for boilovers--adding a few drops of Fermcap S to the boil can help), and bump the first 3 hops additions slightly as noted.

Simplified Pliny extract + steeping grains recipe:
Steep 8oz of Crystal 45 in a bag for 30 minutes @ 155F, remove and drain, then do your normal boil routine (but for 90 minutes, not 60) with 7 lbs 8 oz light DME + 7 oz of corn sugar (dextrose).

Hop schedule:
4.0 oz CTZ 13.90% A.A. 90 min.
1.0 oz CTZ 13.90% A.A. 45 min.
1.25 oz Simcoe 12.30% A.A. 30 min.
1.00 oz Centennial 8.00% A.A. 0 min.
2.50 oz Simcoe 12.30% A.A. 0 min.

Chill and pitch California Ale Yeast (e.g. US-05, WLP001, Wyeast 1056)

After primary is done, dry hop:
1.00 oz CTZ 13.90% A.A. Dry Hop (12 to 14 Days Total)
1.00 oz Centennial 9.10% A.A. Dry Hop (12 to 14 Days Total)
1.00 oz Simcoe 12.30% A.A. Dry Hop (12 to 14 Days Total)
.25 oz CTZ 13.90% A.A. Dry Hop (5 days to go in dry hop)
.25 oz Centennial 9.10% A.A. Dry Hop (5 days to go in dry hop)
.25 oz Simcoe 12.30% A.A. Dry Hop (5 days to go in dry)

Oldsock said:

You could use pale DME to replace the pale malt, and then steep the sepcialty grains. It would take something like 9 lbs of DME to replace the gravity.

That said, if you can't do a full boil I wouldn't try the recipe as is. With a partial boil you won't be able to get the high level of bitterness this beer requires (even with late extract additions). The issue is that isomerization tops out ~100 IBUs, so if you finish with 2.5 gallons the most bitterness you can get is ~50 IBUs. One work around would be to do two brews with half the malt/hops in each, and combine in the fermenter.

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Split batch is another good approach, or just do a smaller batch--if you've got the pot for it, a 3.5-4 gallon batch isn't that bad.

Do you have any links for the bolded part? It's one of those things that I've heard bandied about a lot but never seen the actual study or data to support it (there's definitely some saturation point, but I've never seen it pinned down precisely where it is).

You guys are awesome. Right now I've got ingredients for 3 more batches, and both my carboy and fermenting bucket are full for at least another 2 weeks.

I'm puttin this one in the queue. Thanks!

SumnerH said:

Split batch is another good approach, or just do a smaller batch--if you've got the pot for it, a 3.5-4 gallon batch isn't that bad.

Do you have any links for the bolded part? It's one of those things that I've heard bandied about a lot but never seen the actual study or data to support it (there's definitely some saturation point, but I've never seen it pinned down precisely where it is).

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In Brewing Classic Styles Jamil says the limit is "reportedly 100 to 120" but that isn't exactly a firm number, and neither is Mosher's "the wort won't absorb much more than 100 IBUs of bitterness" in Radical Brewing. Sadly I didn't see any mention of a limit from Palmer/Daniels/Fix.

From a practical stand point I heard an interview with Vinnie where he said despite the huge hop additions in PtE (300+ theoretical IBUs), labs come back with only ~80 IBUs. I've also never heard of a beer actually lab testing at over 100 IBUs.

I don't know very much about brewing, but I've drank both of these and they both claim to be more than 100ibus.
http://www.dogfish.com/brews-spirits/the-brews/occassional-rarities/120-minute-ipa.htm
http://www.harpoonbrewery.com/index.cfm?pid=116620

smears said:

I don't know very much about brewing, but I've drank both of these and they both claim to be more than 100ibus.
http://www.dogfish.com/brews-spirits/the-brews/occassional-rarities/120-minute-ipa.htm
http://www.harpoonbrewery.com/index.cfm?pid=116620

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Those may just be calculated vales, the formulas keep going up indefinitely.

Founders Devil Dancer used to advertise 200 IBUs, but now they say 112: http://www.foundersbrewing.com/the-lineup/devil-dancer so that might be legit?

I attempted an Elder-ish clone a while ago...first beer I kegged.

In hindsight, after having a few bottles of Elder and a pour of the Younger (last week), my tastebuds couldn't much tell the difference between my crapshoot recipe and the others. I had a 4 gal boil, and hopped my top up water as well.

5.5lb pils extract, 2.75lb sugar (added in stages during primary...belgian style), 10oz Carapils, 4 oz brown sugar (no idea why I put this in...ah, early days), and 8oz biscuit (again, no idea why I did this).

Anyways, I figured I'd shoot for the stars with the hopping, so I ended up using Columbus for bittering, and hopping up with Amarillo and Saaz...lots of 15 min and 0 min additions...hop sludge in the kettle. Dry Hopped with 5oz of Amarillo and Saaz again...ended up with a mildly hidden boozy DIPA that was a hit with the ladies who liked the 'grapefruit beer'.

...Certainly not a total loss in hindsight...I was sad when the keg kicked. Found out when I was cleaning the keg that there was a giant chunk of ice in the bottom...accidental freeze concentration. It was certainly approaching a rough version of Younger...although a bit too dry.

Sorry to revive an old post, but I'm curious. If this Pliny clone calculates IBUs of 200+, but the most hop utilization a homebrewer can get tops out around 100 IBUs, why use so much bittering hops? If using less bittering hops would still get you to 100 IBUs, seems to me you could save yourself a few bucks here.

Thoughts?

Bump

BPal75 said:

Sorry to revive an old post, but I'm curious. If this Pliny clone calculates IBUs of 200+, but the most hop utilization a homebrewer can get tops out around 100 IBUs, why use so much bittering hops? If using less bittering hops would still get you to 100 IBUs, seems to me you could save yourself a few bucks here.

Thoughts?

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Utilization slows down well before 100 IBUs, IIRC PtE has been tested in the 80s. I have also found hop extract results in a smoother bitterness than the IBUs suggest. I just did a DIPA with 80 IBUs from extract, and it wasn't nearly bitter enough. The re-brew with 100 IBUs of extract and 20 IBUs of Simcoe was about right.

Try both ways for yourself and see if it is worth saving a few dollars.