Judges' comments - Creaminess?

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beertroll

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I just got my scoresheets back from my second competition (Greg Noonan Memorial, South Burlington, VT). I entered a dry stout, and my average score was 33.5, so I'm fairly pleased. It's certainly quite a bit better than my first competition results (mid to low 20s - meh).

The main thing one of the judges found lacking was a lack of creaminess, which left the finish a little harsh. I can't disagree with that assessment; there is a little bit of a bite on the end, and the carbonation mouthfeel is more sharp than I'd like. However, I'm not sure how to correct that in future batches. Ok, that's not entirely true; I'm sure that carbonating with a nitrogen system would make the beer super-creamy, but that just isn't in the cards. The judge suggested adding some calcium chloride to the boil, which I intend to try. Is adding CaCl to the boil going to give me different results than just upping the amount I add to my mash water (I use distilled and add 1tsp/5gal)? Is there anything else I can do to smooth off my texture?
 
Adding Calcium Chloride will shift the chloride/sulfate ratio and will make the hop character less bitter. As far as the difference between adding it to the mash or the boil, I dunno. I always add mine to the mash. For a more creamy character you might add some oats or flaked barley.
 
Oats, flaked barley, or Carapils will help with mouthfeel. I added 8 oz of carapils to my last batch which I just tapped today. It made a big difference in the mouthfeel.
 
I'd considered adding oats, but was worried about sweetness. The recipe is already about 11% flaked barley, so I'm wary of adding too much more (though maybe this is unfounded?). Carapils seems like the safest route, though I do like the smoothness of oats...
 
I'd considered adding oats, but was worried about sweetness. The recipe is already about 11% flaked barley, so I'm wary of adding too much more (though maybe this is unfounded?). Carapils seems like the safest route, though I do like the smoothness of oats...

Oats don't add anything sweet. They mash and ferment just like anything else.
 
With 11% flaked barley, you should be good there. Oats don't add sweetness (use flaked oats or instant from the store) unless you're getting golden naked oats, which are a specialty malt, sort of a cara-oat.

Try a higher mash temp. I wouldn't add any sugars like maltodextrin or lactose- start with higher mash temp, and maybe some oats. Oats+flaked barley+high mash temp should give you a really nice smooth creamy mouthfeel that almost begs to be put on nitrogen, but don't worry about that for competition, you can't really bottle a nitro beer. If you're not getting it after that, check out your water.

What's your recipe? If you're concerned about adding gravity, you could take out half your flaked barley and replace it with flaked oats, depending on how much you're using now.
 
Sounds like you need either a higher mash temp, or a lower fermentation temp to get a more creamy mouthfeel.

The other thing to consider is reducing the astringency (perceived bitterness from grain). When do you add your non-mashable grains to your mash? Personally I don't add anything above about 80-100L to the mash until mash out/vorlauf.
 
As entered:
7# Maris Otter
1# Flaked Barley
1# Roasted Barley
0.25# Chocolate Malt
2oz Fuggles @ 60
S-04

Mashed at 150 for 75 minutes, batch sparged.
Ambient fermentation wobbled between 59 and 61. OG was 1.043, FG was 1.012.

I really liked the flavor (dark coffee with a hint of chocolate), and the dryness was about perfect to my taste. I like the idea of holding the dark malts back until the end of the mash.
 
As for the calcium chloride mash vs boil - the difference comes in because it affects mash pH based on the added calcium- since you're starting with a dark beer and using DI water - you probably aren't needing to lower the mash pH anyway (and may actually need to raise it). the chloride portion that was suggested can be added to any part of the process - even in the finished beer if you want to try it.

As for creaminess - it's probably a mixture of either adding proteins (i.e. oats) or reducing tannins (adding roast / dark grains to the end of the mash) It's very much a mouthfeel thing, so you want to becareful that you aren't adjusting flavor too much to achieve mouthfeel.
 
I've found 1 lb of flaked oats gives great mouthfeel for stouts and brown ales the way you are talking about. I don't think adding CaCl2 is going to really do anything for you in that regard. To fix the harshness, I'd add the dark grains with 20-30 minutes left in the mash. Keep in mind this will result in less roasty flavor too.
 
Water chemistry could be playing a part, but it's hard to tell unless you know what your water chemistry is to begin with. It would be much easier to add some of the suggested grains to help it out and see what happens. Astringency from sparging could be part of the issue, but we don't know exactly how you sparge or what your water chemistry is, again.

I'd go with the mash temp, oats, or carapils to start with.
 
(I use distilled and add 1tsp/5gal)? Is there anything else I can do to smooth off my texture?

With zero bicarbonate in the water and that much roasted malt, your mash pH is very likely too low which would give you harsher roasted malt flavors. Did you test with a pH meter by any chance?
 
I'm trying to remember if I used my pH meter on that brew, or if I used strips. Unfortunately, I didn't take notes on my water for this brew, and now I'm kicking myself. My SOP is to start with distilled water, add 1TSP of CaCl and 1CC of lactic acid per 5 gallons. I treat my mash and sparge water together, when I first fill up my HLT, and I target a mash pH of 5.1-5.2. I *think* that for this batch I tossed in a little extra CaCl and held back on the lactic, but my memory is fuzzy and brew day was back in late February. I could try diluting with some of my tap water next time (8.1pH, 227HCO3) to counter the roast.

For the people suggesting I raise my mash temp, you saw that it's a dry stout, right? As it is, my attenuation is barely meeting style. I'm afraid a higher mash temp will leave my FG too high.
 
Bigfan of oats, here, for creaminess. I use 1.5 pounds in my 5 gallon witbier recipe. Use rolled oats, instant or not. If instant, add to the mash as is. If not, cook first to gelatinize.
 
Also what level did you carb at? If you used the normal 5oz you should probably drop that some. Sorry don't have numbers in front of me but check a carb style chart
 
For the people suggesting I raise my mash temp, you saw that it's a dry stout, right? As it is, my attenuation is barely meeting style. I'm afraid a higher mash temp will leave my FG too high.

Attenuation and mouth feel are two different things. You can have both. Try a batch with a higher mash, you might be surprised.
 
As for the calcium chloride mash vs boil - the difference comes in because it affects mash pH based on the added calcium- since you're starting with a dark beer and using DI water - you probably aren't needing to lower the mash pH anyway (and may actually need to raise it). the chloride portion that was suggested can be added to any part of the process - even in the finished beer if you want to try it.

Calcium chloride is a bit odd compared to the other salts we use with brewing in that it has no affect on pH. Calcium Carbonate (chalk) and gypsum do because when they dissolve the carbonate and sulfate ions react with H+ ions, which then affects the pH (which is simply the measure of the H+ ion concentration). Neither Ca or Cl react with H+ ions so it does not affect pH. It will certainly affect flavor though, and its addition is good advice to the OP. I've messed around with adding it to pints of porter and a little bit definitely made the beer a little bit fuller and smoother.
 
pjj2ba said:
Calcium chloride is a bit odd compared to the other salts we use with brewing in that it has no affect on pH. Calcium Carbonate (chalk) and gypsum do because when they dissolve the carbonate and sulfate ions react with H+ ions, which then affects the pH (which is simply the measure of the H+ ion concentration). Neither Ca or Cl react with H+ ions so it does not affect pH. It will certainly affect flavor though, and its addition is good advice to the OP. I've messed around with adding it to pints of porter and a little bit definitely made the beer a little bit fuller and smoother.

In pure water this is correct but I thought that if you had high alkalinity the Ca+2 ions from the CaCl2 would bond with some of the carbonate ions from the bicarbonate, thus yielding a more acidic solution?

Ca+2 + HCO3- => CaCO3 + H+

Sorry off topic, I just want to make sure an assumption I've been working off of forever is correct. I believe in a George Fix book he uses this as an example of how much CaCl2 is needed to reduce alkalinity to a desired level (ends up being a lot of salt)... The other way would be to adjust pH manually to change the ratio of bicarbonate to H2CO3.
 
In pure water this is correct but I thought that if you had high alkalinity the Ca+2 ions from the CaCl2 would bond with some of the carbonate ions from the bicarbonate, thus yielding a more acidic solution?

Ca+2 + HCO3- => CaCO3 + H+

Sorry off topic, I just want to make sure an assumption I've been working off of forever is correct. I believe in a George Fix book he uses this as an example of how much CaCl2 is needed to reduce alkalinity to a desired level (ends up being a lot of salt)... The other way would be to adjust pH manually to change the ratio of bicarbonate to H2CO3.

Yeah, if you have highly alkaline water, plus you need the pH to be fairly high to encourage CaC03 to precipitate out. If the pH is low, it won't ppt out as well. This is why it is better to use CaOH (pickling lime) if reducing alkalinity is your goal. Also in the case of the OP's beer, if anything he wants to raise the pH a bit. One can add CaOH to raise the pH, but one has to be more careful as it is much easier to add to much with this salt. It is a great way to do it though.

More chloride ions will help to round out the mouthfeel a bit (assuming Cl is low).
 
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