OK I did something really wrong with this heatstick

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ReverseApacheMaster

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Ok so I brew stove top but I wanted to build a heatstick to assist the stove element in reaching boil. I followed instructions I obtained online plus some words from HBT. The basic construction is the pipe/pvc/heating element design. I used JB weld to seal the element and pipe.

Following information given here I set out to build a circuit that would run inside my kitchen. I purchased a 16 gauge electrical wire and a 1500W heating element. I hooked up two wires to the terminals on the heating element and according to the instructions I followed, I connected the ground on the wire to the pipe and secured it with JB Weld where the pipe and PVC meets.

I put it all together and tested the electrical work dry (only for a minute!!!) on a single GFCI outlet that has no other circuits downstream. The heating element heated up and the GFCI outlet was not tripped. That was yesterday.

Today, after making sure there were no holes in the weld and it had all dried (I waited over 24 hours) I filled a pot of water, placed the heatstick in the water and plugged it in. Within a second I got a loud pop and the GFCI outlet flipped off. I unplugged the heatstick and tried to reset the outlet. There was some sparking in the socket holes but it wouldn't reset. Now nothing happens when I hit the reset button. Additionally, the GFCI outlets downstream also do not work.

I realized after all this happened the coffee maker was plugged into a GFCI outlet downstream from this one and it was turned on.

I tried flipping off the circuit and leaving it off for a while and then flipping it back on to no avail. I also waited about 15 minutes to try to reset the circuit and still nothing.

Ok electrical geniuses of HBT (and you all are, seriously) what did I do? Where did I go wrong? Should I make another attempt to run the heatstick or curse it to hell?

(I did call an electrician to come out and fix the outlet. Hopefully I did not completely screw up the house but I don't want to make matters worse by screwing around with the wiring in the house.)
 
OK first things first.

1500 watts at 110V is going to pull 13.6 amps so you should be using 12 gauge not 16

Secondly, you didn't mention what size your breaker in the panel is for the circuit you're plugging into. Pulling 13.6 A with just your heat stick you'd need a 20A breaker for that circuit. Add in the coffee pot and you're probably close to overloading a 20A circuit, and I'd bet you're working with a 15A circuit.

Remedy? Fix your wire gage, have your electrician install a 20A breaker while he's fixing the GFCI outlet, and just be glad you didn't burn the house down!

Good luck!
 
Leak? Improperly mixed JB Weld could be the cause. They have a product called Waterweld which sounds like a better fit.

However this kind of project IMO is inherently dangerous and should be done by someone who is very careful in the build, or is nuts and a risk taker. I'd much rather install the element in the kettle so that the electrical connections are enclosed outside of the liquid zone.

+1 on all of the above
 
First and foremost, thanks for all the help.

I did leave the heatstick in a kettle of water for an hour with the lid off and then flipped it over and not a drop of water came out, so I don't believe there is a leak, but I could be wrong.

Looking at the breaker it has a 20 on the top of the switch. Doesn't that mean it is a 20A breaker?

Now that the heatstick is put together and welded together with jb weld, is there any way to fix the wire gauge without completely starting from scratch??
 
My guess is that the GFI outlet may or may not have tripped but most likely the panel breaker feeding the circuit did. A coffee pot and 1500 watt element would have overloaded it. However, it could be that the panel breaker did NOT trip but the overcurrent fried the GFI. If that's the case, you replace it and I'd suggest a 20amp GFI.
 
If it has a 20 on it, it should be 20A. I'm not electrician, but your wire gauge does seem a bit light. I built a 1500w stick and used a 14 gauge cord and, assuming I calculated correctly, that's about the bare minimum you would want to use. I think mine might be running on only a 15A GFI circuit, but, I'm careful not to run anything else on it and so far it works great, plug fitting doesnt get hot and the GFI doesn't trip. It's great for heating my sparge water without having to fire up the burner or to help boost my time to boil.
 
The quick and dirty way to tell if your GFCI outlet is 20A if it has a slot on the side of one of the receptacles like pictured below. If they are both just straight slots then it is 15A.

IMG_20101230_130143.jpg


Another thing that crossed my mind is your ground. If you can take a pic of how you have it connected that would help. I haven't built a heatstick myself since I'm working on my single tier electric build, but if you have it grounded to the pipe and the pipe is in contact with the water then this is no pinche bueno!!!
 
+1 to the ideas here...

I'm no electrician and don't have a heat stick of my own, but it sounds like you did 2 things simultaneously:
1) created a "ground fault" that tripped/broke the GFCI. (this to me says that something might be wrong with your wiring in your heat stick
2) popped the breaker. (It's probably 15A, not 20...)

Keep in mind that GFCI's serve a purpose that's a little different than the breaker in your box. The breaker serves to keep the circuit from getting overloaded. The GFCI protects "you" from having 110V run through your body via a "stray" ground. For instance, the old story of dropping a toaster in water, which creates an electrical short to ground that's different than the ground in the outlet. The receptacle itself "senses" that the ground reference has changed, and trips, shutting the circuit or receptacle off.

So, if your wiring somehow - say perhaps through the heating element touching your kettle and the stove - created a "new" ground, it could have tripped the GFCI outlet.

Just a thought anyway. If there's one coming, just ask the electrician... Maybe trade him a homebrew to have him look at the wiring of your heat stick???
 
Ok so it looks like the outlet is 15A.

All the different instructions I found online have the ground wire in the heatstick attached to the pipe, which obviously goes in the water. I thought that was kind of weird myself, but obviously other people have built these without incident, so am I missing something there? Basically I have the ground wire stripped and hung over the edge of the chrome pipe and sealed down with jb weld between the chrome pipe and pvc.

Like this, but put together:

heatstick3.jpg
 
Just for clarification, you say you initially tested the heat stick dry. Do you mean you plugged it in quickly without submerging it in water? Are you certain that didn't burn out the element?

Yes, I did. However, I only had it plugged in for maybe 30 seconds max. It didn't turn red or get incredibly hot. Would that be enough to burn out the element?
 
Just for clarification, you say you initially tested the heat stick dry. Do you mean you plugged it in quickly without submerging it in water? Are you certain that didn't burn out the element?
This was my thought also. Reading the quote below, I believe that one minute would be enough time to burn out an element.

I put it all together and tested the electrical work dry (only for a minute!!!)
 
Yes, I did. However, I only had it plugged in for maybe 30 seconds max. It didn't turn red or get incredibly hot. Would that be enough to burn out the element?

I can only tell you what I've heard and that is NEVER run the things dry as the elements can burn out very quickly. Not sure if that could have happened in 30 seconds or less. However, they seem to come up to full heat in a matter of only a few seconds.
 
Do you have another appropriate GFCI circuit you can test the stick on, with the element submerged this time? Although, I'd hate to see you blow another circuit again. Hmm, your call on whether you want to try that or not.
 
Do you have another appropriate GFCI circuit you can test the stick on, with the element submerged this time? Although, I'd hate to see you blow another circuit again. Hmm, your call on whether you want to try that or not.

It seems like all the plugs in the house are 15A so I am hesitant to create more problems with other outlets.
 
Did you reset the breaker the GFCI is on?

Sometimes when a breaker trips, it is not obvious by looking at it. Turn the breaker off and then back on. See if it "clicks" in both directions. If it doesn't click when you turn it off, it was tripped.

You said there were sparks in the outlet when you reset the GFCI. Did you unplug the heatstick before you reset the gfci? Unplug it and try to reset again. Plug something into the gfci outlet other than your heatstick to test the outlet.

You should be able to run a 1500w element on a 15a breaker if there is nothing else on the circuit.

The 16awg wire is likely the problem. It probably heated up and tripped the gfci. If you reset the gfci with it still plugged in, you probably tripped the breaker.

Good luck.

Ed
 
You should be able to run a 1500w element on a 15a breaker if there is nothing else on the circuit.

The 16awg wire is likely the problem. It probably heated up and tripped the gfci. If you reset the gfci with it still plugged in, you probably tripped the breaker.

I run a 1500w on a 15a with no problem, just got to be sure nothing else is plugged in. However, I do run a heavier gauge cord.
 
Did you reset the breaker the GFCI is on?

Sometimes when a breaker trips, it is not obvious by looking at it. Turn the breaker off and then back on. See if it "clicks" in both directions. If it doesn't click when you turn it off, it was tripped.

You said there were sparks in the outlet when you reset the GFCI. Did you unplug the heatstick before you reset the gfci? Unplug it and try to reset again. Plug something into the gfci outlet other than your heatstick to test the outlet.

You should be able to run a 1500w element on a 15a breaker if there is nothing else on the circuit.

The 16awg wire is likely the problem. It probably heated up and tripped the gfci. If you reset the gfci with it still plugged in, you probably tripped the breaker.

Good luck.

Ed

Yeah it clicks in both directions. I might not have unplugged the heatstick before trying to reset the outlet. I thought I did, but I might be wrong. At this point the reset button won't push back into the outlet.

It sounds like at a minimum I need to replace the heatstick wiring. Is there any way to deconstruct the heatstick? That JB Weld looks like it doesn't just pull off.
 
Yeah it clicks in both directions. I might not have unplugged the heatstick before trying to reset the outlet. I thought I did, but I might be wrong. At this point the reset button won't push back into the outlet.

It sounds like at a minimum I need to replace the heatstick wiring. Is there any way to deconstruct the heatstick? That JB Weld looks like it doesn't just pull off.

That's the problem with potting electrical connections in JB Weld... it's fairly permanent.

Sounds like you may need to replace the GFCI. Are there other outlets that do not work that may be connected to the gfci? Unplug everything in all the non working outlets and try again to reset the gfci. If you still can't get it to reset, probably needs to be replaced.

Ed
 
That's the problem with potting electrical connections in JB Weld... it's fairly permanent.

Sounds like you may need to replace the GFCI. Are there other outlets that do not work that may be connected to the gfci? Unplug everything in all the non working outlets and try again to reset the gfci. If you still can't get it to reset, probably needs to be replaced.

Ed

Yeah there are three other outlets downstream from the outlet I blew and none of them work either.

I guess I am starting back over from scratch on the heatstick...
 
That's the problem with potting electrical connections in JB Weld... it's fairly permanent.

Well, someone finally said it. Since there's no way to get to the connections on the element, assuming it isn't fried, what you have is a really cumbersome, but interesting, paperweight. If it's any consolation, I think you will really enjoy using the new improved heatstick you will now have to build. :(
 
Don't feel too bad, I have my electrical elements potted in JB weld for my keggles, so far so good but I'll likely replace them with boxes at some point.

Nothing like throwing away good money, just go out in your yard and pick some off the tree, have a few homebrews and enjoy your build, it'll go faster the second time around, trust me, I've redone things many many times.
 
Ok so it looks like the outlet is 15A.

All the different instructions I found online have the ground wire in the heatstick attached to the pipe, which obviously goes in the water. I thought that was kind of weird myself, but obviously other people have built these without incident, so am I missing something there? Basically I have the ground wire stripped and hung over the edge of the chrome pipe and sealed down with jb weld between the chrome pipe and pvc.

Like this, but put together:

heatstick3.jpg

In my humble opinion, heat sticks are accidents waiting to happen. If you do not assemble it exactly right, you have a suicide weapon in your hands.

I was able to paste the link to you picture into the address line of the browser, so I could see your picture. I do not like the way the ground wire is just wrapped over the edge of the pipe and JB welded. The ground wire is your last line of defense against electrocution and it needs to be terminated correctly. For example, use a ring terminal and a screw with nut through the pipe, tighten it well then seal the outside with epoxy or silicone.

A 1500W element will draw 12.5A from a 120V socket, less if there is voltage drop in the wiring. A 15A outlet will be OK, but you have to check that nothing else is powered on that circuit when you run the heat stick, especially heaters such as the coffee pot.

At least for now you can relax about the wire gauge. These rules of thumb you will find around here apply primarily to fixed installations where your cable is hidden in a wall. Extension chords violate these rules all the time. You will know if the chord gets hot that it is undersize (check this), but it will not pop your circuit breaker in one second like you described.

I believe you have a water leak. Water may not run out of your pipe, but it takes just a little moisture to create a short. Did you dilute the JB weld?

If you have an Ohm meter handy you can test the element if it is burnt out. Make sure it is unplugged, then measure resistance between the two terminals. It should be about 9.6 Ohm for a 1500W 120V element. It will likely be a little less cold. Then check resistance from each terminal to the heater body. You should have infinite resistance. If it passes these tests it survived the dry firing.
 
If you have an Ohm meter handy you can test the element if it is burnt out. Make sure it is unplugged, then measure resistance between the two terminals. It should be about 9.6 Ohm for a 1500W 120V element. It will likely be a little less cold. Then check resistance from each terminal to the heater body. You should have infinite resistance. If it passes these tests it survived the dry firing.

Good luck getting to those terminal posts under all that JB Weld!! :p
 
just test with the wires, they are connected to the terminals after all.


Good point, but even if that thing is still good, isn't he going to have to figure out some way to unhook the wires eventually to upgrade the cord?!?! I'm thinking the fact that the element head is encased in JB Weld it really doesn't matter too much at this point, but maybe I'm missing something? :confused:
 
The electrician came by and sure enough I blew the outlet. He wasn't really sure why it happened. He did say that 16 is way too small of a gauge but if I was only running it for a brief period of time it wouldn't really matter.

He speculated that there is a leak causing a short because if it was just a matter of overloading it would have triggered the breaker but it didn't. Rather than trying to figure out where the hole might be I will look into making another one properly at some point in the future.
 
Next time ask the guys here if you are not sure of what you are doing. Electricity can be lethal especially when you are not sure what you are doing.
 
For my four heatsticks I drilled and tapped the metal flange at the base, and wrapped the ground wire around that. It's all under silicone sealant. They have continued to work for several brews. I don't understand the love for JB Weld for this application. I used White Lightning 100% silicone sealant sku 23275 09010. Found it at the local Menards. It meets FDA requirements for food use. Other makers have similar products. It remains flexible, so I could take the things apart if I had to.

Mine are 1500 watts each, run one per circuit on 15 amp GFCI circuits in my basement shop area. Doing 10 gallon batches, it takes the four of them get a decent boil. I have rather wide pots (Mega-Pots), so I may have more evaporative water and heat loss than folks using keggles.
 
Sorry, but the ground is for protecting property, not you. That's what GFCI is for. A properly grounded circuit will happily pass current through you until you're thoroughly dead and never miss a beat.

Nonsense. Perhaps you are thinking of the function of circuit breakers rather than grounding? Circuit breakers protect property, specifically the wiring in our houses, but grounding is used to protect against electrocution. Granted, GFIs do a better job of it, most of the time, but before we had GFIs we had to rely on grounding for protection. Yes, you can get killed by touching a grounded object if you also touch a hot wire somehow. The idea, though, is that if the hot wire comes lose inside an appliance and it comes in contact with its metal exterior, the grounding of the same protects the user from touching an electrically hot surface. That grounding appears to have been what protected the OP in this thread. Had it not been for grounding, he may have had to take the initial shock before the GFI tripped.
 
Big +1.

I did the heatstick thing at Basic Brewing's request, but I'm still not a fan of them. Just commit a kettle to brewing (you will eventually anyway) and mount the element into it.

Hmm, until you said this, I never put two and two together. So, I guess it was YOUR instructions that I used to build my heatstick? :D

I use the heatstick to speed along my boil and for tasks like heating up my strike and sparge water. I only use the gas burner for the actual boil. Anyway, the stick works like a charm, but I treat the thing like it could kill me at any point. I figure it's the best course of action when using one. :mug:
 
Thank god you're not an electrician. :drunk:

Obviously, neither are you.
You do not have to take my word for it. Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia's article on grounding which most closely apply to a heat stick. Highlights are mine.

Equipment bonding conductor. The purpose of the equipment bonding conductor is to provide a low impedance path between non-current-carrying metallic parts of equipment and one of the conductors of that electrical system's source so that should these parts become energized for any reason, such as a frayed or damaged conductor, a short circuit will occur and thus cause an overcurrent protection device such as a circuit breaker or fuse to activate and disconnect the faulted circuit. Note that the earth itself has no role in this fault-clearing process[1] since current must return to its source, not the earth as is sometimes believed[citation needed] (see Kirchhoff's circuit laws). By bonding (interconnecting) all exposed non-current carrying metal objects together, they should remain near the same potential thus reducing the chance of a shock. This is especially important in bathrooms where one may be in contact with several different metallic systems such as supply and drain pipes and appliance frames. The equipment bonding conductor is usually also used as the equipment earthing conductor (see above).
 
EE trumps Wikipedia any day.

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Your attitude is showing and it is very apparent.

Check out the NEC. You will be amazed.

You might even learn about the pure BS that is stated about the 80% "rule" that is so often quoted on this forum (and other forums).
 
EE trumps Wikipedia any day.

Nothing to see here. Move along.

You know, jkarp, 100% of our interactions have been initiated by you "correcting" my post. I am not kidding, 100%. And in at least two occasions you have shown yaw-dropping ignorance of electrical principles. It is hard to believe that you actually hold an EE degree. So often, people that toot their horn about their degree(s) are usually the least knowledgeable. Since you brought it up, I hold a Batchelor of Science in Electrical Engineering degree, and I am a licensed Professional Engineer (PE) in the state of Washington. Ignorance is OK, we all have to start somewhere, but isn't it time you stop correcting posts when you barely know what you are talking about?
 
Your attitude is showing and it is very apparent.

Check out the NEC. You will be amazed.

You might even learn about the pure BS that is stated about the 80% "rule" that is so often quoted on this forum (and other forums).


Yep, check NEC article 210.2, which real basically states add up all continuous loads and multiply by 1.25 to find the overcurrent protection needed. (using some basic math you can do the same by multiplying by 80% or .8 times the size of breaker to find out how much continuous load you can have on the circuit. There are exceptions, but for most applications the 80% rule is effective.

Also, grounding is not for the protection of property. Grounding is the bonding of conductive material (ie frame of washing machine) to a ground in such a manner that if an energized conductor was to make contact with it it would trip the breaker. If you were to touch the bonded material (frame of the washing machine) you should be prevented from getting shocked as the breaker should have tripped. If you touch the energized section, you will regret it and get shocked until the circuit overloads... if it does. Safer.

A gfci on the other hand measures current leaving and returning to make sure they match. If it does not match it will trip thereby reducing the time and severity of the shock. Safest. (ps.. you will still feel it)

rdwhahb. degree or no degree how about just discussing without attacking
 
"But what happens if the neutral gets shorted out to ground during construction? Anyone? Anyone?"

So, what does happen? (ground ties back to the exact same place in the panel as the neutral. Your words.) It will work fine. you can put a meter on it, the hot will read 115 volts to ground, the neutral will read 0 volts to ground. The pipe will read 0 volts to ground. You can touch it bare handed (not recommended) and not get zapped. Are you confusing a 120 volt element that has a neutral, with a 240 volt element, that does not have a neutral?

Don't for a moment trust the ground to save your ass.(your words again) I agree... but I would not trust the gfci to save it either. I would not trust anything electrical or mechanical either. Everything can and will fail.
 
One more point and I'm out. Quiz time for dobeluvr:

1. Define a "continuous load". (it's in the NEC)
2. List the NEC allowed exceptions for the 80% rule. (they're significant for indoor brewers)
I haven't attacked anyone here. I haven't shown "attitude", and if you have misconstrued my words as such, use the ignore feature in your User CP on this board. I have. I *do* have significant hands-on, real-world, published, experience with electric brewing. Unlike too many here on HBT, I'm not armchairing this discussion from a code book.
Later gents.

So what, you think I cant read? Maybe you think I haven't seen the NEC? If that is not attitude what is. A quiz? really. If you wish to list "YOUR QUIZ" and discuss them, I'm game. But I only consult the NEC when I'm getting paid. Not to argue with someone. Heck, I may even learn something. Like you, I have extensive experience in the electrical field. "Hands on, real world, published experience with electric brewing"...well good for you. I still say that for the average person on here 80% is fine.
If you don't think so, tell me why, I dont do quizzes.
 
OK, then please tell me which of the following (your words) still apply in this failure mode. Do you still define it as "working fine"? If a heatstick was built in such a way and was in operation with the chrome resting against the pot, would you be willing to touch said pot and the spigot on your sink?


of course, both the sink and the neutral are still grounded and at the same potential.

THE PROBLEM occurs when you have an ungrounded heating element and the hot conductor touches the chrome which is resting against the pot. Then the pot has 120 volt potential when compared to sink . That is when you get shocked. (assuming you have metal water pipes and not plastic)
 
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