Explosive decompression!!

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soldstatic

soldstatic

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KABOOM!

I'm in the midst of designing / building my brewing system. I want to do 10 gallon all grain batches, and I want all kinds of flexibility. I'm building a boiler so I can do a steam injected mash type system, and I plan to use this method to also boil in the kettle. Since I'll be turning my boiler on and letting it come up to temp / pressure for a long time, I don't want to have to wait for any sparge water to heat up. Heating up the water for the mash I could do that in the vessel where the grain bed will be then dump the grains in.

So here's the problem. I have water at whatever superheated temp it's at. I forget what it is at the top of my head, but whatever I need to get 10 psi or something. How can I draw WATER (instead of steam!!) out of the vessel, keeping it under pressure? Then I'll obviously mix that crazy hot water with some cold water to get the sparge temp I want, but I'm worried about drawing out too much liquid, or the liquid I draw out turning to steam, and eventually blowing up my house.
 
cause I want to use the same manifold etc in the mash and in the kettle. and to sanitize some things and to steam my clothes.

Or if you mean to add another vessel to my setup, I don't want to do that because that means I take up more floor space. And I've got a 15 gal vessel I was going to use for the boiler, so I could potentially put plenty of water in there.
 
soldstatic said:
KABOOM!

I'm in the midst of designing / building my brewing system. I want to do 10 gallon all grain batches, and I want all kinds of flexibility. I'm building a boiler so I can do a steam injected mash type system, and I plan to use this method to also boil in the kettle. Since I'll be turning my boiler on and letting it come up to temp / pressure for a long time, I don't want to have to wait for any sparge water to heat up. Heating up the water for the mash I could do that in the vessel where the grain bed will be then dump the grains in.

So here's the problem. I have water at whatever superheated temp it's at. I forget what it is at the top of my head, but whatever I need to get 10 psi or something. How can I draw WATER (instead of steam!!) out of the vessel, keeping it under pressure? Then I'll obviously mix that crazy hot water with some cold water to get the sparge temp I want, but I'm worried about drawing out too much liquid, or the liquid I draw out turning to steam, and eventually blowing up my house.
Click to expand...


Blowing up ones house is no bueno
 
Building and using DIY steam boilers is a very bad idea and also a very dangerous one. Your worry about blowing up your house is absolutely justified. IMO, it's not at all worth the risk.

Yeah, Kaboom...no sheet!
 
Catt22 said:
Building and using DIY steam boilers is a very bad idea and also a very dangerous one. Your worry about blowing up your house is absolutely justified. IMO, it's not at all worth the risk.

Yeah, Kaboom...no sheet!
Click to expand...

With the proper care I'm confident I can do it just fine. I've got two degrees in engineering, and work in the power industry. I used to design control systems, including valves and distributed control networks, etc etc for power plants. If anyone on this board can do it, I can too. It's just the physics of pulling liquid out, I'm not sure it's possible without relieving the entire pressure that the vessel would have been working so hard to build up.
 
A long, coiled copper tube might help. You need something to cool the water to 100C or less, and to dissipate the pressure. 25' or 50' of 1/4" coiled copper tube, (much like a very old fashioned still), would probably do the trick, and could be misted with water if it overheats. Connect it to a valve with a diptube into the bottom of your boiler, (to pull off the superheated water), and open the valve slowly. You'll get steam at first, but after a few seconds you should just get hot water....mist the coil to keep it cooler than 100C.

You've got expansion on your side. As the water vapor expands, (as it hits atmospheric pressure), it will cool, so it will be self-regulating to a point. Whether the copper tube can dump the rest of the energy fast enough by itself or you need to mist it is something you can certainly determine empirically.

There should be no "explosions". It's just rapidly expanding gas. The tube can easily handle the 10 PSI at the part closest to the boiler, so no worries there. I think this is perfectly safe as long as you don't stick your hand in the steam, (and as long as your boiler is pressure regulated!)

Edit: and once your superheated water has flashed to steam, then condensed back into water (inside the tube), it's perfectly safe, and at atmospheric pressure, so you can connect some silicone tubing to the other end of your copper tube and use it to direct the flow of water.
 
shortyjacobs said:
A long, coiled copper tube might help. You need something to cool the water to 100C or less, and to dissipate the pressure. 25' or 50' of 1/4" coiled copper tube, (much like a very old fashioned still), would probably do the trick, and could be misted with water if it overheats. Connect it to a valve with a diptube into the bottom of your boiler, (to pull off the superheated water), and open the valve slowly. You'll get steam at first, but after a few seconds you should just get hot water....mist the coil to keep it cooler than 100C.

You've got expansion on your side. As the water vapor expands, (as it hits atmospheric pressure), it will cool, so it will be self-regulating to a point. Whether the copper tube can dump the rest of the energy fast enough by itself or you need to mist it is something you can certainly determine empirically.

There should be no "explosions". It's just rapidly expanding gas. The tube can easily handle the 10 PSI at the part closest to the boiler, so no worries there. I think this is perfectly safe as long as you don't stick your hand in the steam, (and as long as your boiler is pressure regulated!)

Edit: and once your superheated water has flashed to steam, then condensed back into water (inside the tube), it's perfectly safe, and at atmospheric pressure, so you can connect some silicone tubing to the other end of your copper tube and use it to direct the flow of water.
Click to expand...



Hm interesting. I'm not sure even 50 ft would cool it below 100C without some kind of cooling. But if that was how I was doing it I could use something akin to a counterflow chiller. Hopefully somehow mix the water coming out at both ends to make 170F. That would probably be a lot better than misting a coil and wasting the heat. Might have to have 3 sources of water to 'mix'. Superheated (cooled to below boiling point), heated (used to do the cooling), and cool (source). That said without a lot of 'cooling' water moving fairly quickly, I don't know if it would be able to absorb enough. But if was done slowly enough on the high pressure side, I might be able to maintain the pressure fairly well since the volume released would be very small.
 
motobrewer said:
you need a bunch of welding certifications to be able to weld a steam boiler.
Click to expand...

i'm not going to certify my boiler, and i'm not going to sell it. Besides, My dad is a PE and has been welding for years. I'm not concerned about needing certificates to build my system.

Please people, I obviously am aware of the dangers involved and understand the risk in undertaking this method. That's the whole point of this post. How do I safely pull liquid water from a boiler?

Thanks for your concern, now help me solve the problem!
 
Dip tube coming from the bottom of the boiler with a 10# check valve at the end?
 
soldstatic said:
Hm interesting. I'm not sure even 50 ft would cool it below 100C without some kind of cooling. But if that was how I was doing it I could use something akin to a counterflow chiller. Hopefully somehow mix the water coming out at both ends to make 170F. That would probably be a lot better than misting a coil and wasting the heat. Might have to have 3 sources of water to 'mix'. Superheated (cooled to below boiling point), heated (used to do the cooling), and cool (source). That said without a lot of 'cooling' water moving fairly quickly, I don't know if it would be able to absorb enough. But if was done slowly enough on the high pressure side, I might be able to maintain the pressure fairly well since the volume released would be very small.
Click to expand...

You'd be surprised how much expansion helps you.

The latent heat of vaporization of water is orders of magnitude higher than the heat capacity of water. When you open that valve, the water will flash to steam, but when it does this, it will pull a LOT of energy, cooling the vapor, possibly enough to get it back into a liquid phase.

Ugh...now I have to figure it out for you, cuz I'm curious...I'll be back.
 
soldstatic said:
I've got two degrees in engineering, and work in the power industry. I used to design control systems, including valves and distributed control networks, etc etc for power plants.
Click to expand...

Then I think you should know better. Operating a home-built steam pressure vessel may well be illegal. I have no doubt you have the capability to build and operate a steam boiler. I do have serious doubts about whether you should actually do so. Your insurance company would probably frown on the idea too.
 
What's with all this negativity....people have built many steam infusion rigs on this forum before. FlyGuy made one with a pressure cooker. Yuri_Rage has made a couple....I don't see the big deal.

Also, I can't figure out the damn math, and all my books are at work. I say try it, see if expansion alone, (plus the copper bleeding heat), gets you below boiling...
 
Try PMing Yuri_Rage, he uses a converted keg as a boiler to generate steam which he direct injects into recirculating mash and sparge water. I think he did exactly what you're trying to figure out, though he just uses the steam.

Yuri's Setup

That's an option for you...just run steam into your running water to heat it to whatever temp you need at the output.
 
shortyjacobs said:
Hey Op, while looking around for other examples of steam systems, I found that Yuri has a new toy:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/yuri-goes-big-steam-new-boiler-point-use-water-heater-125953/

I didn't read all through the thread, but his idea for "point of use" makes more sense than yours, I think....I'd go with that!
Click to expand...

Wow brilliant. I didn't think it could be that simple, but that makes too much sense. I've got too much engineering blood in me. My gut reaction was to make it way more complicated than it needed to be. Only thing I'll do differently will be to attach an on off valve in addition to the flow regulating valve in line for the 'point of use' piece, and then add a line dedicated to steam that will go to the manifold in the bottom of the MLT / kettle.

Brilliant.
 
orangehero said:
Try PMing Yuri_Rage, he uses a converted keg as a boiler to generate steam which he direct injects into recirculating mash and sparge water. I think he did exactly what you're trying to figure out, though he just uses the steam.

Yuri's Setup

That's an option for you...just run steam into your running water to heat it to whatever temp you need at the output.
Click to expand...

I've been reading up on Yuri's steam systems, and taken a large amount of inspiration from them indeed. I don't know how that post escaped me, but i never saw that thread until you two pointed it out! Thanks so much!!
 
I believe Kladue does inline steam injection also. He uses an instant steam boiler, though...more efficient if you can figure out how to do it. His system is extremely sophisticated, check it out for ideas.

Kladue's system

None of them use steam to boil the wort, and I think this also is due to inefficiency. Personally I prefer electric heating...cheaper, cleaner, and more efficient; just make sure you use ultra low density elements for the kettle.
 
With a fairly simple steam mixer you can heat liquid quietly with steam, if you want to do on demand steam the flash boiler is the way to go. I have an older system with a flash boiler and mixer that raises steam in about 50-60 seconds and can do the strike and sparge with water and gas flow adjustments. Not hard to build, one cup or less water in play at any time, and with SS coils it will withstand dry firing to orange hot and quenching with cold water.
 
orangehero said:
I believe Kladue does inline steam injection also. He uses an instant steam boiler, though...more efficient if you can figure out how to do it. His system is extremely sophisticated, check it out for ideas.

Kladue's system

None of them use steam to boil the wort, and I think this also is due to inefficiency. Personally I prefer electric heating...cheaper, cleaner, and more efficient; just make sure you use ultra low density elements for the kettle.
Click to expand...

That's crazy... I'm going to have to look into how to build an on demand boiler, not sure how to do that one. That would be flippin amazing though.

I am going to use electric heating elements. Definitely cheaper and cleaner and more efficient. I just want to use them to make steam so I can change the temp of my mash super fast and get a 10 gal batch boiling in no time. And use the steam for other things too. Sanitizing kegs etc would be amazing with steam. Plus I could use it to remove wall paper, steam my clothes to a wrinkle free awesomeness, and in general make me feel awesome.

Side note and not really related: did you know you can buy activated carbon from ebay for (farily) cheap? I'm going to use that to build an on demand filter for my garden hose with a high rate of flow. Water here is great for stouts etc, but if I wanna do a pils I don't want to have to count on a flippin brita pitcher lol

Guess I could just go buy a couple gallons of water from the store, but what's the fun in that.
 
kladue said:
With a fairly simple steam mixer you can heat liquid quietly with steam, if you want to do on demand steam the flash boiler is the way to go. I have an older system with a flash boiler and mixer that raises steam in about 50-60 seconds and can do the strike and sparge with water and gas flow adjustments. Not hard to build, one cup or less water in play at any time, and with SS coils it will withstand dry firing to orange hot and quenching with cold water.
Click to expand...

Mr K i was just drooling over your brewery pr0n. Do you have any guidance you can lend me on howh to build a flash boiler / mixer? I love the idea of less and less water in play. Less damage if the PRV were to fail lol.

Only catch is I want to do electric heating elements. Eventually I'm going to automate this rig with my old instruments and controls experience and electric elements would be so much more rad for automating.
 
Here is the old system http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/SteamRimsBrewingEquipment# and a shot of the new system http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/CoolingSystem#. Trying this with electricity will be a problem as the btu's needed will raise the kw requirements to levels not easily reachable with residential systems, the gas powered flash boiler is able to reach 30KW heating range. The new system is built around Opto 22 G1 series hardware and uses industry standard 4-20 Ma transmitters, RTD's, and J thermocouples. Gas flow is controlled with Mass flow controllers and a 0-5vdc signal, ignited by honeywell direct spark ignition modules. Hardware was assembled in about 3 months in 08, software is still ongoing as I have time on my hands while on the road away from home and come up with tweaks and features to incorporate.
 
Did you see the Mythbusters episode with the water heater blasting off thru their makeshift two story house? Add to this a heater out in the open that reached and altitude of 500' when the bottom blew off. A vast amount energy released during decompression. Use your boiler outside in an open field as I bet your homeowners policy will not build you a replacement house.
 
kladue said:
Here is the old system http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/SteamRimsBrewingEquipment# and a shot of the new system http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/CoolingSystem#. Trying this with electricity will be a problem as the btu's needed will raise the kw requirements to levels not easily reachable with residential systems, the gas powered flash boiler is able to reach 30KW heating range. The new system is built around Opto 22 G1 series hardware and uses industry standard 4-20 Ma transmitters, RTD's, and J thermocouples. Gas flow is controlled with Mass flow controllers and a 0-5vdc signal, ignited by honeywell direct spark ignition modules. Hardware was assembled in about 3 months in 08, software is still ongoing as I have time on my hands while on the road away from home and come up with tweaks and features to incorporate.
Click to expand...


Yea 30kW isn't very feasible unless I get a special tap from the utility co. Luckily I work for my utility company lol, so i'm going to look into that. But it probably isn't a very good option. Given that limitation I guess I'll have to steer clear of the flash boiler. :( Let me know if you have any more detailed information about your flash boiler, I'd be interested to learn what you did!
 
BrewBeemer said:
Did you see the Mythbusters episode with the water heater blasting off thru their makeshift two story house? Add to this a heater out in the open that reached and altitude of 500' when the bottom blew off. A vast amount energy released during decompression. Use your boiler outside in an open field as I bet your homeowners policy will not build you a replacement house.
Click to expand...

Yea I've seen a ton of those videos! There are a couple about power plants and stuff, those are even crazier. But the reason they explode is the reason I want it!

Steam heat! I want steam heat!
 
Here is a picture of the old boiler http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/InstantWaterHeater#5018859442542030754 4 10' coils wound around 2" pipe and connected to swagelok cross fittings top and bottom. Heated with a 6" cast burner on high pressure propane, water and gas flow controlled with needle valve and water flow monitored with flow meter. Here is the steam mixer http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/NewSystemSteamMixer#5156297767550785986 SS screen wire rolled over 1/8" rod and silver soldered to 1/4" tube. Steam and water inside the screen, wort over the outside, with a sizzling sound like frying bacon at high steam injection rate.
Check GreenMonti's threads on flash boilers for detailed pictures of a copper tube boiler, the one I built with 100' of tubing was overkill and did not perform like expected, 50' is probably the right length.
 
orangehero said:
Personally I prefer electric heating...cheaper, cleaner, and more efficient; just make sure you use ultra low density elements for the kettle.
Click to expand...

Electric is generally more expensive than NG or Propane. Gas used to be wayyy cheaper, but electric is still more expensive than gas even considering inefficiency.
 
Do you have a close-up of that steam injector?

Also how does the solder hold up after repeated use?

triethylborane said:
Electric is generally more expensive than NG or Propane. Gas used to be wayyy cheaper, but electric is still more expensive than gas even considering inefficiency.
Click to expand...

Well let's see...how much do you pay for a refill and how many brews do you get out a 20lb propane tank?

Electric vs. Propane
 
triethylborane said:
Electric is generally more expensive than NG or Propane. Gas used to be wayyy cheaper, but electric is still more expensive than gas even considering inefficiency.
Click to expand...

Blue Rino propane in my area for a 3.5 gallon fill bottle exchange is $23.95 or $6.84 a gallon. Last specs read off a members a commercial NG steam heated 12 gallon unit had 65% efficiency. This makes electricity rather cheap in my area which is cheaper than PG&E customers pay off the grid.
 
The silver soldered screen in the old mixer is 7 years old and still sound, the new mixer only has an hour or two on it as testing opportunities are limited to once a month. You need the 56% silver content solder and the staysilv flux, but a microtorch will get the job done. The old mixer is similar to the picture shown, but the screen is soldered to the port connector fitting between the tees on the old system.
The flash boiler makes startup a matter of minutes to heat strike water, then with low flow you make superheated steam for wort heating, to step mash, then turn water flow up and heat sparge at the end. With all water and steam going to the mash tun you do not touch the plumbing during brewing, just adjust water flow and fire as needed. During wort heating the fire level is adjusted with a needle valve in the burner gas line to control temperature, and temperature rise across heater lets you send wort back to mash at next step temperature.
Old system gets about 3 brews from a 5 Gallon tank, I do not know what new system will get from 7 gallon tank.
 
orangehero said:
None of them use steam to boil the wort, and I think this also is due to inefficiency.
Click to expand...



Almost..........I am going too. I followed Kladues boiler and built the copper version he referenced too. I have boiled water on many occasions with my flash boiler. While I don't have the perfect sientific equipment to know the precise flow of gas to my rig. I figure I will get about 8-10 batches out of a 20lb tank. My build thread is stalled out right now due to time constraints. But that is exactly what I'm building.https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/full-monti-179621/

I have another thread on my boiler build too. I'll have to find it.

I don't use the Blue Rhino as it just too much money. Next to the BIG tank where the guy fills mine up at, is a Rhino cage. I asked him straight out one time why in the heck anyone would pay so much for the same gas. He looked at me funny then did the math in his head........all he could do was shrug his shoulders and smile.

Here is an old pic of my boiler
P1010070.jpg


This is the inside coils.
P1010097.jpg
 
Sorry Monti, didn't mean to leave you out. Hadn't read through your threads yet...everything is sexy though.

Kladue, you posted elsewhere that your homebrew club experimented with pressure cooker steam injection mashing but gave up on it. Could you please elaborate on your experiences? What exactly was the overwhelming downside to the method?
 
Catt22 said:
Then I think you should know better. Operating a home-built steam pressure vessel may well be illegal. I have no doubt you have the capability to build and operate a steam boiler. I do have serious doubts about whether you should actually do so. Your insurance company would probably frown on the idea too.
Click to expand...

Buzz off catt22 you code monkey, if you cant help with the science then just shut up and leave , the post title was not "need doughting tommas mother goose to crush creative minds with bureaucracy and can't do attitude"


there is not way to inject super heated water in to a vessle at atmospheric presser, but i dont know why you would want too,, that "problem? ,," is the point, the heat -matter phase change problem is how its going to heat your stuff up .. just set up a dip tube from the bottom of the boiler , at the tip of the hose some of the water will change to steam, do to lower atmospheric presser , but will give up that heat to the target and convert back to water in milliseaconds. there is really no point in precooling,, the temp change of water (at fix pressure) is liner 1cal 1 gram 1 deagee,, the magic is when there is a phase change ice ,water, steam, you get lots and lots of calore-newton differential

to pre cool the water to 100C would be like useing 32f water to cool your ice tea reather than ICE . sure you could do it with 10x as much waterign down your drink all the wile.... use the super heated water from the presser cooker boiler, with a ball valve and just slowly add the water at a rate that the steam does not break the surface much..

i do the same thing with a pressure cooker for step mashes,, i run steam backward up the manfold of my mash tund, works great
 
soldstatic said:
i'm not going to certify my boiler, and i'm not going to sell it. Besides, My dad is a PE and has been welding for years. I'm not concerned about needing certificates to build my system.

Please people, I obviously am aware of the dangers involved and understand the risk in undertaking this method. That's the whole point of this post. How do I safely pull liquid water from a boiler?

Thanks for your concern, now help me solve the problem!
Click to expand...

"Rag Heads" can also build a nuclear bomb with the proper components but not know how it works.
I've been around live steam model engines that need the boilers certified every year, must be a reason why?????? It doesn't matter what degrees you have they still need to be certified, Berkeley Rad Lab Techs included.
 
Clayton said:
Buzz off catt22 you code monkey, if you cant help with the science then just shut up and leave , the post title was not "need doughting tommas mother goose to crush creative minds with bureaucracy and can't do attitude"


there is not way to inject super heated water in to a vessle at atmospheric presser, but i dont know why you would want too,, that "problem? ,," is the point, the heat -matter phase change problem is how its going to heat your stuff up .. just set up a dip tube from the bottom of the boiler , at the tip of the hose some of the water will change to steam, do to lower atmospheric presser , but will give up that heat to the target and convert back to water in milliseaconds. there is really no point in precooling,, the temp change of water (at fix pressure) is liner 1cal 1 gram 1 deagee,, the magic is when there is a phase change ice ,water, steam, you get lots and lots of calore-newton differential

to pre cool the water to 100C would be like useing 32f water to cool your ice tea reather than ICE . sure you could do it with 10x as much waterign down your drink all the wile.... use the super heated water from the presser cooker boiler, with a ball valve and just slowly add the water at a rate that the steam does not break the surface much..

i do the same thing with a pressure cooker for step mashes,, i run steam backward up the manfold of my mash tund, works great
Click to expand...

Safety should always come first dummy. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.
 
Clayton said:
Buzz off catt22 you code monkey, if you cant help with the science then just shut up and leave , the post title was not "need doughting tommas mother goose to crush creative minds with bureaucracy and can't do attitude"


there is not way to inject super heated water in to a vessle at atmospheric pressure, but i dont know why you would want too,, that "problem? ,," is the point, the heat -matter phase change problem is how its going to heat your stuff up .. just set up a dip tube from the bottom of the boiler , at the tip of the hose some of the water will change to steam, do to lower atmospheric presser , but will give up that heat to the target and convert back to water in milliseaconds. there is really no point in precooling,, the temp change of water (at fix pressure) is liner 1cal 1 gram 1 deagee,, the magic is when there is a phase change ice ,water, steam, you get lots and lots of calore-newton differential
Click to expand...

Granted your talking injecting water at zero to slightly above atmospheric pressures converting to steam as well within your safe pressures, this practice is way over the eyes of the law regarding safe guidelines with steam generating vessels. Even with small scale steam train engines they must be inspected and certified every year. BTW get off Catt22's case he just stated the facts regarding safety! Unless you know more about steam boilers with model locomotives and their annual certifications I beg to believe your blowing smoke up your stack. Sorry to be harsh i've been around these model train boilers for over 50 years going thru certifications. Nuff said, PROSIT!
 
he did not ask for your safty input did he?
you have nothign to add here go away he has said he does not want your BS he wants can do.
 

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