Bottle-Carbing in #1 PETE

Brewing Friends...

Rather than continuing to hijack the "Man, I Love Apfelwein" thread, I figured it was a good time to spin this off into its own thread.

About 5 weeks ago, I mixed up a batch of EdWort's Apfelwein. My intent from the beginning was to bottle-carbonate the batch just as one would with a 5 gallon batch of beer: 5 ounces of corn sugar mixed into the liquid just prior to bottling.

Well, being somewhat new to brewing, I do not have an endless supply of beer bottles...or any other bottles, for that matter. But I DID save the #1 PETE bottles the apple juice came in.

I did read a bit about bottle-carbing beer in plastic soda bottles, and no one, to my knowledge, had any issues with that. There are some, however, who did have issues with apple juice bottles. So, I did some further investigating: 2 liter soda bottles and apple juice bottles BOTH have heat-sealed seams; they are both made from a single layer of #1 PETE. The only differences between the two are: the soda bottle uses a thinner plastic; the soda bottle has two more threads for the cap.

Well, I am willing to be the guinea pig on this one, and attempt to bottle-carb my apfelwein in 3-quart #1 PETE apple juice bottles! I did just that very thing about 90 minutes ago. I did, however, take an extra precaution: the filled bottles are INSIDE of a sturdy, plastic storage tub, with a tight-fitting lid.

I will keep the board informed on what's going on with the plastic bottle carbonation experiment. I THINK it will work just fine. But then again, maybe not! I am still collecting empty pop-top beer bottles, so if the experiment fails miserably, I can easily mix up another batch and bottle-carb that in beer bottles. Stay tuned for further developments!

glenn514

I think it will work but you missed a very important difference. They geometry of the apple juice bottles I have seen varies radically from the geometry of soda bottles. I am no engineer but I suspect that they will hold much less pressure than soda bottles (though soda bottles will hold much more pressure than your application requires).

Geometry of pressure vessels is a pretty big deal. Let us know how it works in this particular application.

Thanks for the replies, Brewers! I just went and checked the capped bottles inside the tub...and all is well. The differing geometry of the bottles did, indeed, cross my mind, but I didn't consider it a sufficient difference to toss out the entire experiment. I figured that, if the bottles could stand being boxed into a case, stacked several cases high on a front-end loader, and banged about by various nefarious folk, they could certainly stand a bit of pressure from bottle-carbonation. So far, so good!

On the other thread, I was encouraged NOT to use the bottles twice. I do plan on recycling the bottles, since I will have brand-new bottles for the next batch of apfelwein.

Stay tuned for further information.

glenn514

Day 2 of bottle-carbing apfelwein in the original #1 PETE apple juice bottles, and no explosions yet. The seven bottles are behaving themselves quite nicely inside the large plastic storage tub!

glenn514

We are now into Day 4 of bottle-carbonating a batch of apfelwein in the #1 PETE juice bottles which originally held the apple juice. I just checked the plastic storage tub, and all is well within! The bottles are getting hard, which is expected from the carbonation. No explosions nor any leakage yet.

I did purchase another 5 gallons of apple juice, at $2.38/gallon. This time, it is in 1/2 gallon bottles...two quart bottles rather than 3 quart. I'll get the next batch started when I'm about 1/4 done with the first batch.

glenn514

glenn514 said:

We are now into Day 4 of bottle-carbonating a batch of apfelwein in the #1 PETE juice bottles which originally held the apple juice. I just checked the plastic storage tub, and all is well within! The bottles are getting hard, which is expected from the carbonation. No explosions nor any leakage yet.

I did purchase another 5 gallons of apple juice, at $2.38/gallon. This time, it is in 1/2 gallon bottles...two quart bottles rather than 3 quart. I'll get the next batch started when I'm about 1/4 done with the first batch.

glenn514

Click to expand...

why not start now?

Because I can't drink it that fast...especially if I don't want to be buzzed 24/7!

I have to chime in on this from two sides.

1st Side: I have done it. Works fine. I did my first two batches this way. I used the 1/2 gallon "rectangular" bottles. Bottles did deform as they weren't intended for internal pressure. But worked. I still have 4 bottles that are bottled this way back in November.

2nd Side: I am a mechanical Engineer and design pressure vessels for a living. SHAPE is the most important thing when talking about pressure. Also Internal and external pressure are completely different. Spheres and cylinders are the best at holding internal pressure, further explanation requires too much time and I need to get back to design a vessel that holds 3500PSI.

So in short this is why Soda bottles are round. Many Juice containers are not because they don't need to hold pressure and rectangular bottles fit into square boxes more efficiently for shipping.

Just an FYI post
smee

smee44 said:

I have to chime in on this from two sides.

1st Side: I have done it. Works fine. I did my first two batches this way. I used the 1/2 gallon "rectangular" bottles. Bottles did deform as they weren't intended for internal pressure. But worked. I still have 4 bottles that are bottled this way back in November.

2nd Side: I am a mechanical Engineer and design pressure vessels for a living. SHAPE is the most important thing when talking about pressure. Also Internal and external pressure are completely different. Spheres and cylinders are the best at holding internal pressure, further explanation requires too much time and I need to get back to design a vessel that holds 3500PSI.

So in short this is why Soda bottles are round. Many Juice containers are not because they don't need to hold pressure and rectangular bottles fit into square boxes more efficiently for shipping.

Just an FYI post
smee

Click to expand...

This is good info. And probably the "square" bottles won't explode.

But I want to stress that just because several test bottles didn't explode it doesn't mean that it can't happen. A batch of TAP-A-DRAFT bottles which were designed for carbonation were recalled because a couple bottles exploded. Probably just a quality control problem. But since the square juice bottles are not specifically designed for pressure, no one is paying attention to that aspect of quality control. So the likelihood of explosions, IMHO, is higher with the square bottles.

For the O.P., use the ones designed for pressure. You can get three liter soda bottles from the dollar stores for, a dollar, or 2 liter no-name soda is on sale all the time at supermarkets.

Safety is always worth thinking about. Just saying....

Rich

smee44...thanks for the input on spherical shapes holding internal pressure. I seem to recall that from the deep, dark, seldom-used recesses of my brain when I took physics! The juice bottles I am currently using are almost round, but there are two indentations which form a "handle" in the plastic.

RickBenn...I think we will, in the future, use 2 liter soda bottles. I started another batch of apfelwein, and those bottles are <oh, the horror> square! I did save them, but I think we'll start collecting the soda bottles. Got one already...only 9 or so left to go!

And, so far, so good!

glenn514

It's now been one week since my first batch of apfelwein was primed with 5 ounces of corn sugar and bottled. As the carbonation increases inside the bottles, the CO2 becomes diluted in the liquid, with an increase in internal bottle pressure.

As of this particular moment in time...1030am CDT...all bottles are happy and well-adjusted inside the large plastic storage container. I have no idea how much carbonation has occured, but I do know that the bottles are stiffer than empty ones, just like 2 liter soda bottles become "hard" under the pressure of carbonation.

SWMBO and I decided that, this coming weekend, we will put the least full bottle...it's got about 2.5 quarts in a 3 quart bottle...in the refrigerator, chill it down, and then see what we've got.

At this point, however, I believe I have proved POSITIVE the cockamammie theory that you CAN bottle-carbonate beer and wine in #1 PETE bottles OTHER THAN SODA BOTTLES. Now, that may change overnight! One or more of the bottles could well explode and blow the wind right out of my sails! I will know more this coming weekend.

glenn514

RichBenn said:

But I want to stress that just because several test bottles didn't explode it doesn't mean that it can't happen. A batch of TAP-A-DRAFT bottles which were designed for carbonation were recalled because a couple bottles exploded. Probably just a quality control problem. But since the square juice bottles are not specifically designed for pressure, no one is paying attention to that aspect of quality control. So the likelihood of explosions, IMHO, is higher with the square bottles.
Rich

Click to expand...

I agree 100%. Use of any product outside its original designed usage can lead to problems. And obviously even though i should know better i throw caution to the wind. As always we are responsible for our own choices.

smee44 said:

...even though i should know better i throw caution to the wind.

Click to expand...

Isn't that sorta what life is all about? I threw caution to the wind almost 41 years ago, not knowing what the future would bring. Today, I still love her, and she's the mother of four of the most awesome young women you can imagine! Some would say life is a crap shoot...throwing caution to the wind sounds so much more "eddicated."

glenn514

More than ten days have passed since the apfelwein got bottled. I just checked on the bottles...still behaving themselves inside the large plastic tub...and I did notice some sediment beginning to form on the bottom. That tells me that some of the yeast and other particulates in the "wein" have settled down to the bottom, just like bottle-carbed beer. It also is an indication of SOME carbonation in the "wein." How much...I dunno! But I will put the least full bottle into the frig this weekend, chill it down good, and drink it. I'll report on the amount of carbonation after I open it up.

glenn514

I'm thinking about using 3-liter soda bottles when my first batch is ready for bottling. Has anyone experimented with long-term aging in those?

PS thanks for being the guinea pig I hope it works. I bet you could also drill a half-inch hole in the lids, install a grommet and airlock, and ferment right in the bottle. You could ferment right in the bottles making the apfelwein recipe even simpler: open apple juice, pitch yeast, replace cap with grommeted cap and airlock. I thought about trying that but only after I had invested in a couple Better Bottles <frown>.

Today marks two full weeks since my first batch of apfelwein was bottled and left to condition/carbonate in the #1 PETE bottles the juice originally came in.

Just a few moments ago, I took a look inside the "safety" plastic storage tub, and the six remaining bottles seem perfectly happy, containing the carbonation raging inside of them. The seventh bottle was placed in our second refrigerator last week Friday, with the intent to pop it open sometime over the weekend and see what we've got. Well, it never got opened. I certainly will post when I do, in fact, open it.

There appears to be absolutely NO distortion to the plastic of the juice bottles. Each bottle has a light layer of "stuff" on the bottom, indicating that yeast and/or other things have fallen out of suspension. The "wein" is quite clear and it sure does LOOK tasty. No caps have popped, either.

It keeps looking more and more positive for bottling/carbonating in #1 PETE bottles, with the "caveat" to use bottles that are as round as possible.

Stay tuned for further news reports. Film at eleven.

glenn514

I popped open that one least-full bottle that I had put in the refrigerator last week Friday...shared a little of it with a friend. YUMMY! Nicely carbed...great "fessh" sound when I unscrewed the cap...and LOTSA little tiny bubbles in the liquid. Tasted close to a dry champaigne with a hint of apple flavor. Quite good! Friend was on his motorcycle, so I didn't offer him seconds...but I had seconds!

So, in the final analysis...you CAN bottle-carbonate in #1 PETE bottles OTHER THAN soda bottles! It works like a charm with no worries of bottle-bombs. None of the plastic was in the least bit distorted, and the caps have remained in place. So, go ahead and reuse your juice bottles, friends!

glenn514

SWMBO asked me if I could back-sweeten the already bottle-carbonated apfelwein. I said, "Yes, indeed." About an hour ago, I opened a 3-quart bottle and added two tablespoons of Splenda. I noticed that the "hand-hold" portion of the juice bottle had been pushed out by the pressure of the carbonation. Checked the other five bottles, and they are all the same: "hand-holds" pushed out. That is the ONLY distortion in the juice bottle that I can see. And there was LOTSA carbonation in the bottle I opened...the "fsssssh" when turning the cap was amazing! I poured out a little apfelwein, mixed in the two tablespoons of Splenda, and poured it back into the bottle. I'm not worried about infection...not at over 10% ABV!

glenn514

to anyone wanting to carbonate in PETE bottles I highly recommend used 2 liter soda bottles. I make my own soda and use them under 40-45 psi but as I understand they are rated for 130psi.