Can You Brew It recipe for Wychwood Hobgoblin

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EricCSU

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All recipes are (unless otherwise specified): 6 gallons post-boil, 70% efficiency, Morey for color, 15% evaporation, 7.27 gallons preboil, Rager IBU, and most hops are in grams not ounces. Most, if not all recipes are primary only (no secondary).

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If you brew this, please reply with your results for discussion.

OG 1046
FG ?
IBUs 36.3
SRM 15.5

90% UK Pale Ale Malt 4.29kg
7.5% British Crystal 75-80love. 360g
2% British Chocolate malt 100g
0.5% cane sugar 20g

Mash at 153F for one hour.

Boil for 60min

14g Kent Goldings 4.75%AA 60'
14g Fuggles 5%AA 60'
16g Cascade 5.75%AA 15'
64g Styrian Goldings 5.25%AA 15'

WLP023, ferment at 61F, rise to 68F over 3 days.


Thanks.

Eric
 
There are some strange elements in here.

  • 20 grams of sugar - it really doesn't seem to add much (little OG/FG effects)
    Cascade hops - not in the original (original is Fuggles + Styrian Golding)
    IBU level 36/38 doesn't come through that high in the original (closer to 20s)

FG would come in around 1.012, but I think the original is closer to 1.014.

Thoughts.
 
There are some strange elements in here.

  • 20 grams of sugar - it really doesn't seem to add much (little OG/FG effects)
    Cascade hops - not in the original (original is Fuggles + Styrian Golding)
    IBU level 36/38 doesn't come through that high in the original (closer to 20s)

FG would come in around 1.012, but I think the original is closer to 1.014.

Thoughts.

Thoughts ? You didn't listen to the podcast :D All the info was given by the headbrewer. Maybe he's trying to lead us poor homebrewers on a wild goose chase, but I doubt it.

The sugar was because of the mash tun size if I remember right. They add a small fraction of invert to get the gravity right with their setup. The cascade he specifically mentionned, along with the IBUs. Now, I don't think the headbrewer mentionned how he came up with 36 and he was a bit more secretive about the finishing styrian hops than with the initial bittering charge.
 
Okay, I listened to the podcast...

I see where Cascade came from - strange that it didn't make it to the bottle label.

I was surprised to hear the brewer say they used crystal 150. The clone brew uses crystal 75.

I still don't understand why the high bitterness vs. what the head brewer said he get -
36 vs 25 Rager (which is like 21 Tinseth) The brewer mentioned that they use whirlpool hops (which I'm reading to be hops added at flameout and while whirlpooling to settle trub.) So I wonder why they put their addition at 15mins. Moving the 15min addition to flameout drops the bitterness to 15IBU.

Its funny that they choose WLP023 (aka Wy1275) the Brakespear yeast - when others have said this isn't the one they use. I guess, as they said, this is the closest.

I will have to try this, but without the higher hop level. I'm going to empty a keg of orfy's hobgoblin as it is too bitter - possibly due to the missed brewing salt additions?!
 
Try dry hopping the beer, even if it isn't to style you'd be amazed at how that can knock down the bitterness of an overly bitter batch. I've done that a few times for the win.
 
So has anybody tried this version? I"m drinking the real thing right now, and I gotta brew up a batch. This stuff is awesome.
 
Thanks for the info, I think I'm gonna go with that recipe then. Is it close to the real thing? I remember reading a whole thread about one of Orfy's clones, but can't find it anymore.
 
I'm just polishing off a store bought version and some things I noticed:

The bottle says the ABV is 5.2. I put a drop on the refractometer and it reads 6brix. I think the OG would have to be around 1.048 and an FG of 1.009 to get that reading with 5.2%ABV. It doesn't taste that dry. I think I remember the brewer saying the alcohol was 4.3% and it had a FG in the 1.012 range? That is probably the cask version. What is the ABV on the bottles people get in the US?

The bottle I bought from the government store was oxidized with very little hop taste. I have no idea how anyone could compare this to any homebrewed beer brewed within the last 6 months and declare it cloned. Its still delicious but I'm sure the fresh beer tastes nothing like this.

This is listed as a commercial example of Northern Brown Ale in the BJCP style guide. The bottles they had when they wrote that must have been in worse shape than this. From the style guide:

"A light but appealing fresh hop aroma (UK varieties) may also be noticed."

"Malt-hop balance is nearly even, with hop flavor low to none (UK varieties)."

I'm gonna brew this on the weekend but I don't think I'm going to worry too much about cloning it. I was only able to get 2oz of styrian goldings and I think I will just repitch the 1469 west yorkshire from the batch still in the fermenter. I'll probably leave the sugar out too as I will be adding more than that for priming and it doesn't even add a single point to the OG.
 
Made this 10 days ago... Use Thames Yeast and followed 3 day/5 day yeast schedule.
But I didn't bother checking the FG before starting the 46 deg 5 day schedule...

Bad move. It was still 1.030 after 8 days and bubbling slowly. So now its back to the 63 deg temp.

But it did taste good from the sample. Here's hoping aging won't be too long. :mug:
 
Made this 10 days ago... Use Thames Yeast and followed 3 day/5 day yeast schedule.
But I didn't bother checking the FG before starting the 46 deg 5 day schedule...

Bad move. It was still 1.030 after 8 days and bubbling slowly. So now its back to the 63 deg temp.

But it did taste good from the sample. Here's hoping aging won't be too long. :mug:

How did this turn out? You were using Thames I or Thames II?
 
Thames Valley - 1275...

How did this turn out ? Good question... Tonight/tomorrow it comes out of the FC/aging chamber.
Hoping for something good.
 
Comparing the original to the homebrew.
Did not get the hobgoblin dark, sweet malt smell... Actually, kind of disappointing - no aroma
of the sweetness at all. Bitterness is a bit higher than the original.

Notes from brewing: Did not add water additions. My water is like Dallas water.
Mashed at 152, used Hugh Baird Crystal 75. Added no suger - too little to affect numbers.

Any thoughts ?
 
Comparing the original to the homebrew.
Did not get the hobgoblin dark, sweet malt smell... Actually, kind of disappointing - no aroma
of the sweetness at all. Bitterness is a bit higher than the original.

Notes from brewing: Did not add water additions. My water is like Dallas water.
Mashed at 152, used Hugh Baird Crystal 75. Added no suger - too little to affect numbers.

Any thoughts ?

The hobgoblin bottles we get in canada is 5.2% ABV but the beer the brewer described in the interview was the cask version that came in around 4.5% - the export version is clearly a different beer. What does it come in at in the US? Maybe its just stronger but the hops have dropped out by the time I crack a bottle here. I haven't had cask hobgoblin but I have had cask london pride and well's bombadier and they are both sweeter and less hoppy when I've bought canned or bottled versions here. If you used british pale, chocolate and crystal, your beer is probably closer to what its supposed to taste like than the bottled export version. Leave a few bottles 6 months, it might age into what we get here. This beer has been my "next batch" since this episode aired, but I still havent done it. I will but I need to get some more styrian goldings.
 
Comparing the original to the homebrew.
Did not get the hobgoblin dark, sweet malt smell... Actually, kind of disappointing - no aroma
of the sweetness at all. Bitterness is a bit higher than the original.

Notes from brewing: Did not add water additions. My water is like Dallas water.
Mashed at 152, used Hugh Baird Crystal 75. Added no suger - too little to affect numbers.

Any thoughts ?


I brewed about 3 weeks ago and kegged about a week ago. I used wy1968 (as thats what I had going), Fawcett's Marisotter, Baird's chocolate and c75. Mine is low on bitterness and despite the massive charge of styrians and cascade, hops aroma and flavour is low. it finished at 1.012 but still has some sweetness. Its good and I like this but its not quite what I was going for. I'm going to take it to a party next weekend to kill the keg and I'll try again.

If you listen to the interview, the bittering hops are added before boil and the styrian's and cascade are whirlpooled. Jamil interprets the whirlpool as a 15minute but on my system I think that doesn't work. Next time I'm going to first wort hop the goldings and fuggles and I'm going to move the styrians and cascade to 5minutes. The new bag of EKG I got is 6.5%AA so that should increase the bitterness (vs the 5%AA kent goldings I used this batch). I might try adding tsp of gypsum to the water (the current batch is done with virtually 0 sulphate water).
 
Did you do a head to head taste test? What was the final attenuation? This was another yeast recmd to try. Will prob brew in aug. Right now it's too hot for brown ales. Hefe is where it's at for summer.
 
I didn't do a head to head tasting yet but i can tell mine is lighter. OG 1.046, FG 1.012 (don't know what the attenuation works out to be), 4.5%ABV which is lighter than the commercial hobgoblin sold in canada at 5.2%ABV so I don't expect this recipe to ever taste like the bottles I can get. I brew a lot of english bitters and I like this recipe so I'm definitely going to do it again - plus i have a 2lb bag of styrian goldings and 3lbs of east kent goldings to use up. My basement is still 18.5C/66F (i think thats the F conversion?) so I can still brew. Next time I might up the gravity some to try to match the commercial bottles.
 
I would be curious to know if you get the bright sweet taste that the original has.
I can't seem to duplicate this taste. I taste (in a smaller amount) in warsteiner dunkel too.
 
I'm ready to brew this again too. I'm going to use Hugh Baird for the Pale and crystal.
I was also thinking of adding some crystal 10 for the additional sweetness that I taste
in HG.

What yeast are you using ?

See you in a month for the tastes - be sure to do a taste test, yours against the real thing.
 
I'm using wy1968 again. I have a cake I'm going to put this batch on and I really like that yeast - it ferments well doing primary only in a carboy with minimal blow outs, clears really quick and has an awesome big malty taste. I've tried different yeasts and seasonals but lately have been sticking with wy1968 for ales and wy2124 for lagers. If this gets really close I might switch to the thames valley next time, but I'd rather go with one I know i can get consistent results and no surprises. I'm using baird's 500L chocolate but I'd really like to get some simpsons malt. I'm pretty sure I remember him saying they use simpsons for the colour malts during the interview. Their chocolate is 350-400L and the C75 apparently has a unique taste with hints of chocolate but nobody sells it around here. That might be the key to replicating this one. I was contemplating using a blend of TF pale chocolate and bairds chocolate but decided not too as I was already changing up the base malt and the crystal from last time.
 
You think Simpsons Crystal is the key - Northern Brewer sells it. Too bad I didn't know this a few weeks ago. I was standing in front of Northern Brewer on vacation.
Now its shipping away...

Anyone else trying this out ?
 
I think the key to replicating the Hobgoblin i buy here in canada is increasing the gravity to the 1.055 range and leaving it warm in a shipping container for at least a month:) Baird's crystal must be pretty close to the simpsons - on the fullers esb failed attempt they used an american crystal (briess i think) but nailed it with the rebrew using Bairds. But the chocolate sounds completely different.

I almost feel bad calling my beer hobgoblin after the changes I made this brew: crystal 60, I skipped the fuggles and went with a full oz of EKG, moved the styrians and cascades to 5mins and increased the invert to 3oz which brought the OG to 1.048.
 
I did a side by side tasting this evening. The 5.2% ABV commercial bottle vs the 4.6% ABV homebrew. The colour was pretty close. the homebrew wasn't perfectly bright so it looked a little lighter in colour. The head colour was perfect. The aroma of the homebrew was a bit yeasty and styrian goldings, the commercial pour has no hop aroma, slight oxidation, lots of malt, licorice and molasses. When i go back to the homebrew all I'm getting now is diacetyl. Its weird that the side by side tasting has really highlighted it. Its not that bad but is an obvious difference between the 2 beers. I don't even want to drink the homebrew now but I taste it. The homebrew is much lighter tasting, the bittering seems similar, the styrians are in the homebrew but you really need to search hard for them in the commercial bottle. There is a similar malt sweetness that I seem to be getting in everything I've brewed with this bag of golden promise but the commercial has the noticeable molasses and licorice again which mine has none.

I've taken the keg out of the fridge in the faint hope that the increased temp might cause some of the diacetyl to be consumed. I wonder what they do to increase the gravity on the export version. Maybe its a dark invert that has a molasses and licorice character, maybe the crystal and chocolate malt, maybe a yeast character? I had planned on taking this to a party this weekend. I definitely don't want to serve it in the present state...I considering dumping in some gelatin to clear it and dry hopping with a few more oz of styrians.
 
Side by side tastings are painful...

I can't seem to get the sweetness of the original in mine. I brewed mine in August.
I added some crystal 10, to try and increase the sweetness, and acid malt to lower the
ph. Unfortunately, I also decreased the chocolate and crystal 70 to take some of the color out and ended up way too light to match the HG color. So I doubt it will taste good.

Will probably brew this again soon - especially if I throw out this batch (I've got a dunkel, oktoberfest and a blue moon set of kegs to drink in its place.)
 
Don't dump your entire batch. At least save a few bottles and try them in 6 months...maybe it will age into something closer to what we get here.
 
I brewed HG again, correcting my previous mistakes... We'll see in two weeks...

I listened to the podcast again, especially to their commentary on the oxidized taste of the commercial version - especially since they joked about the bottles in their hot van
for a while.

So I wonder if most of the missing taste of this beer is due to the oxidation. I picked up a bottle of sherry to try adding some to a GLASS (not keg) to see if the taste more closely
approximates the commercial stuff we get.

I also emailed the distributor and brewery for age. The distributor responded that Delivery to the local distributor can be a month or
shorter from the brewery. So its possible for us to get relatively young beer. But we don't know how its handled...


BTW, the brewery webpage is quite elaborate. One thing definitely stands out.
They list the hops on the site as Fuggles/ Styrian. They list the hops and malts for
their permanent beers.

The CYBI recipe calls for Fuggles, Styrian, EKG and Cascade. This is the hop bill for
King Goblin !!

Did he mislead? mixup recipes ? mislead with the website ? Strange indeed.
 
The CYBI recipe calls for Fuggles, Styrian, EKG and Cascade. This is the hop bill for
King Goblin !!

Did he mislead? mixup recipes ? mislead with the website ? Strange indeed.

...I just bought a wychwood sampler pack and I'm drinking the Goliath Ale right now. http://www.wychwood.co.uk/hobgoblin/beers?fbpage=5#noload Oxidation issues aside, this beer is closer to my homebrewed hobgoblin than the bottle hobgoblin ...and I don't think the brewmaster was misleading or mixed up although he seemed really hesitant to talk about the hopping. My thoughts were that cascade are actually the secret ingredient, if he was trying to mislead he could have just read the marketing copy. I think its a thing in the English brewing scene to not admit to using American ingredients. I remember hearing another interview with a british brewer talking about that. They also admitted using a small percentage of cascade to "punch up" the whirlpool additions of styrians and EKG. Its almost like there is a british reinheitsgebot where every beer is made only with british ingredients and all malt. The brewer felt the need to justify the use of invert sugar despite it being a staple of the british brewing industry for more than 100 years. and its not just adjuncts they are ashamed off, they don't want to mention colour adjustments either. I guess its understandable when its a potentially carcinogenic caramel colourant but even in the Fuller's ESB show the brewer mentions the use of chocolate malt but it is left out of the recipe.
 
Hmm, I'll have to see if we have the sampler pack around here.

What do you think about the sweetness - does the HG sweetness show up in the
other wychwood brews ?

I though that this sweetness may be from some oxidation. I'll have to do a taste test
with HG and with the sherry to see if that's what I taste in it.

BTW, I found out from the distributor that the beer is shipped by ocean freighter and
its flash pasteurized. She is starting to wonder why I ask these questions.

Unless its really hot in an ocean freighter these days, should a month's voyage
cause a noticable oxidation ?
 
Hmm, I'll have to see if we have the sampler pack around here.

What do you think about the sweetness - does the HG sweetness show up in the
other wychwood brews ?

I though that this sweetness may be from some oxidation. I'll have to do a taste test
with HG and with the sherry to see if that's what I taste in it.

BTW, I found out from the distributor that the beer is shipped by ocean freighter and
its flash pasteurized. She is starting to wonder why I ask these questions.

Unless its really hot in an ocean freighter these days, should a month's voyage
cause a noticable oxidation ?

The hobgoblin bottle in the sampler was in the best shape of any I have had and the sweetness was there but wasn't as pronounced as most bottles. All of the beers had a similar malt taste which I'm guessing is the yeast, base malts and oxidation.

...I don't know how fast oxidation comes on. Maybe its pretty quick?
 
I did a taste test of Hobgoblin with some sherry.... Its in there - compare the smell of some sherry (dry or cream) and Hobgoblin. You'll smell and taste a faint similarity in the two.

I'll try adding some sherry to my homebrewed version to see what it does to the taste.
 
Finally did a taste test - original vs homebrew.

Aroma:
orig has an oxidized smell - like sherry.
new has good hop aroma

Body:
same

Color:
orig has crystal clear color - ~12 on my SRM transparency.
new is a bit too dark, maybe 1-2. Also cloudy.

Taste:
orig is oxidized - sherry tastes.
new is clean, nice choc notes. Has bit of grainy taste.

If I add 1/2 to 1 cap of sherry to the homebrew version, it tastes a lot more like the original.

If I could get rid of the grainy taste, and clear up the color, clarity it would be real close.
 
Finally did a taste test - original vs homebrew.

Aroma:
orig has an oxidized smell - like sherry.
new has good hop aroma

Body:
same

Color:
orig has crystal clear color - ~12 on my SRM transparency.
new is a bit too dark, maybe 1-2. Also cloudy.

Taste:
orig is oxidized - sherry tastes.
new is clean, nice choc notes. Has bit of grainy taste.

If I add 1/2 to 1 cap of sherry to the homebrew version, it tastes a lot more like the original.

If I could get rid of the grainy taste, and clear up the color, clarity it would be real close.

Can't speak to the sherry issue but I find the water around here is horrible for brewing. Not sure what the Dallas brewers do to treat the water but I would be surprised if they didn't heavily treat or run it through an RO filter.
 
Just brewed the hobgoblin clone today, Had to remove some hops because I didn't have access to them. I used Centennial instead of Cascade. It is now in the fermenter after brewing, aerating and pitching a 1.150L WLP 0023 Yeast (Burton Ale) starter. Will update to see how soon it starts and ends fermentation at 65F. Seems like a good recipe, can't wait to try it.
 
With respect to H20, the best things is to have R.O. water to start adding the minerals as needed. Especially if you are unfamiliar with your H20 chemistry. I use 5.2 stabilizer and Gypsum (~0.5 tablespoon) as a base. If I want, I can add calcium sulfate to "burtonize" my beer. A pH of 5.2 is the best for the diversity of enzyme activity, suppressing bacteria and helping the fungus during metabolism as well.
 
Couple things: You could get centennial but not cascade?!?!?!? Centennial around here is about as rare as seeing bigfoot these days. ...and head over to the brew science forum to find countless threads of 5.2 stabilizer hate.

...and...

What is the ABV on the hobgobblin bottles you get in florida?
What did you use for malts?


...I just moved this weekend. Was thinking about the CYBI well's bombardier or something from the IPA book but I think this might be the first brew of the new house.
 
On the alcohol disparity issue, is it possible the difference in ABV and ABW accounts for it? I thought ABW was a cruel pseudo-formula invented for US states with too many Baptists, but perhaps it is used in the UK, too?

http://www.beertutor.com/tools/abv_calculator.shtml

The numbers don't line up exactly, but it could explain a full point drop in reported versus labled alcohol content. Kind of like 3.2% beer (ABW, grocery store beer in some states) is actually 4% ABV.
 
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