brewing with maker's mark

I have an idea for a recipe that I would like to try and am very interested in getting some feed back for proceedure, amounts, aging, etc.

so here is my idea....I want to brew a beer that would be similar to a muddled old fashioned made with maker's mark. I am flying by the seat of my pants here. I want to brew some thing that will be somewhat orangy, yet not terribly wheaty. I am using rye grain, crystal malt, sweet dried orange peel with a light LME, citra hops and Belgian Ardennes wyeast. I am going to ferment as usual, then transfer to a new white oak barrel that has been lightly toasted.
I want to incorporate maker's mark into the mix, but do not know when, how, or how much for a five gallon batch. I thought once the aging process is done, which I also have no idea how long to age the beer, I would bottle with a maracchino cherry and a few splashes of bitters into each bottle.
anyone out there ever try something crazy like this? Input, suggestions, past experiences???

This sounds pretty awesome! I made a strong ale once where I put in a pint of Mr. Beam. It was very whiskey-y. I think that the oak aging that you are doing will be sufficient to get the right amount of whiskey flavor without over-powering it.

That said, you probably want to stick to the "old fashioned" so I would say add 1/2 Cup to the secondary would do it. Or even better - soak the cherries in a maker's mark and bitters solution for a while and bottle with that!

I made a big stout last year with Makers Mark. I still have a jealous few left. This beer was scary at first but at 6 months it was amazing. It was supposed to be a version of bourbon barrel stout. My friends drank a few with me and later named it, "Death Trap".

I think it is now sublime. I open 1 12 oz bottle periodically and enjoy it in a brandy glass. Its rich, dark and 1 is all you need!

Here's about what happened.

Partial Mash at 152F
4.5 pale malt
1 choc malt
.25 roasted Barley
.25 Flaked Oats

6 lbs Light LME

3 oz Hallertau (was what I had on hand) 60, 20 and 5 mins.

Nottingham dry yeast.
Primary:
3 weeks
Secondary: Pour in 2 full cups of Makers Mark
4 weeks later
Boil some Oak Chips 4 oz. toss em in and go 7 more days.

Bottle and forget about it for 6 months.

After primary is complete it doesn't matter when you add the bourbon. You can do it a month before bottling or just add when filling a glass. After primary it is just a blend and does nothing to the beer itself.

if you are going to add it to bulk beer I would suggest you start light. You can always add more later.

Don't put bourbon in a primary.

You can put bourbon in as a 0min addition, you will lose the alcohol, but retain much of the flavor.

batch has been brewed, thank you for input. now i just need to be patient.

@aseq nice suggestion on soaking the cherries, I am certainly going that route!

any suggestions on how long to age in barrel? get varying time frames, i do want the barrel to impart its flavor upon the sweet nectar. it is a five gallon batch, i understand that the oak will do its magic quicker but still how long? prepping barrel now, soaking it swell, man it smelled devine, this is exciting.

I think it depends on how old/used the barrel is amongst other variables. You should taste it daily for sure though.

aseg said:

I think it depends on how old/used the barrel is amongst other variables. You should taste it daily for sure though.

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brand new never used barrel, all bourbonie-like offical.

there is so much conflicting information on this.

also think a pint of makers is the right amount to add to secondary (the barrel)?

Are you going to "season" the barrel first? With a brand new barrel, I would think it would be between 1 and 3 days.

For the bourbon, I would start with 1 cup - a pint will likely be too much with the oak.

aseg said:

Are you going to "season" the barrel first? With a brand new barrel, I would think it would be between 1 and 3 days.

For the bourbon, I would start with 1 cup - a pint will likely be too much with the oak.

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by season do you mean soaking with water swelling up and sealing said barrel? if so yes, that is currently being done. I washed out loose char, then soaked. it is sealed, but i left the water in as I know it should not dry out and plan on adding wort this weekend.

Yup, that is what I meant. That will likely tone down the oakiness a bit, but it will still be really assertive.

update:
wort has been transferred to said oak barrel. I added 1 cup of maker's to the mix. I am planning on keeping in barrel for at least two weeks, but i will draw a small sample in one. Still weary on length of time the sweet nectar should stay in barrel. I am looking to produce quite the strange brew. I have heard that once the beer is in bottles over time the oakiness will disapate? Anyone know how much truth there is to that?

The aroma of the wort is amazing and it is going to be quite difficult to excercise restraint and patience.

Gravity is at 1.032 as of now (before adding the 8 oz. of makers) plan on two weeks in barrel, then bottle (assuming gravity has dropped to proper level).

Given the taste and smell, I am tempted to not carbonate and drink out of barrel, any down sides to that? (just a thought)

Barrel aging is all about surface area that is in contact with the beer, which is why a smaller barrel will impart its' oaky goodness faster. On top of that, a new barrel is even more potent.

As far as dissipating over time, it definitely will (not much, but it will). I think the biggest difference is that initially the oak is quite sharp, and with a little time it mellows and blends with the other flavors. It doesn't dissipate at the rate of hops, but it does. I wouldn't worry about that though. With the maker's in there, the oak will seem to linger indefinitely.

What is your actual recipe, and what was your starting gravity? 1.032 seems really high to be transfered to the oak. I would have waited until the beer has completely finished fermenting before moving it to the oak.

Does the alcohol in whiskey when added to a secondary affect the ABV%? I was wondering if the whiskey should be boiled beforehand to remove the alcohol and than add to the fermenter for just the flavor. Do any of you think this is necessary?

adepeppojr said:

Does the alcohol in whiskey when added to a secondary affect the ABV%? I was wondering if the whiskey should be boiled beforehand to remove the alcohol and than add to the fermenter for just the flavor. Do any of you think this is necessary?

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i was wondering the same thing. i am sure the 8 oz of makers will have an effect, been trying to figure out how to determine what kind of impact it will have. I did add makers (5.5 oz) at zero minutes to add flavor but cook off alcohol. the idea behind adding bourbon to barrel is to impart flavor and alcohol.

You have to cook alcohol quit a while before it really goes away, and it almost never goes away completely. Here's a chart that shows the rate of cook off.
http://homecooking.about.com/library/archive/blalcohol12.htm

rockfish42 said:

You have to cook alcohol quit a while before it really goes away, and it almost never goes away completely. Here's a chart that shows the rate of cook off.
http://homecooking.about.com/library/archive/blalcohol12.htm

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I went off what someone had posted for "cook-off." i actually added it at 5mins left in boil (well first addition) according to the chart I am going to have quite a bit of the bourbon's alcohol still in the wort, which is what I was really going for. This beer is an experiment, and I am looking to produce something that is as close to a muddled old fashioned but with a beer base.

waiting is the hardest part

Add the Makers after fermentation is complete. It's already sterile and you'll only stress the yeast that is trying to ferment your beer.

moviebrain said:

Add the Makers after fermentation is complete. It's already sterile and you'll only stress the yeast that is trying to ferment your beer.

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Better yet, why not wait until point-of-use? If one were to place the bourbon in the glass before pouring the beer, the mix would be fairly complete, IMO. This way, one can adjust the amount of bourbon to one's taste.

point of use takes the fun out of using it in the recipe and this is a grand experiment for me, trial and error my approach here.

what is the draw back to having the beer ferment in the barrel? is that not what the barrel is for? It is being used as a secondary, fermentation at this point has subsided quite a bit, as it was in the primary for ten days before being moved to the barrel.

If you do some reading here in the forum you will find that many/most home brewers don't use a secondary fermentation at all. Obviously in the case of barrel aging you are using the barrel as a secondary to add flavor but I am pretty sure the general consensus would be to complete the fermentation in primary, letting the yeast cake clean up any off flavors then transfer the beer into the barrel for flavoring purposes.

+1 I would have left it in primary for at minimum 2 weeks, and most likely 3 weeks because of how big this beer is.

Your plan has always been to leave it in the barrel for quite some time though, so the only way to compress your timeline is to shrink time in primary. I am really eager to hear how it comes out!

Be careful with adding cherries to your bottles. You'll need to account for the sugar there to avoid bottle bombs.

This is a little down the road, but definitely worth mentioning - to preserve that barrel after you are done using it, fill it up with some Nitrogen gas. This is what we do at the winery I work it, and it works pretty well. An untreated empty barrel will quickly begin to produce nasty molds and bacteria. I would even fill it up with some 155 deg. water to kill off any bacteria that may be lurking prior to the nitrogen fill.

Northern Brewer home brew supply has a porter that recommends makers mark. I want to sub that out with cruzan black strap as I am more of a rummy! and maybe use some of their "Pirate spices"... make my own "Shiver Me Timbers" porter

I appreciate all the comments and reco's I am getting here. Sampled the worth this weekend, it is quite tasty, very bourbon like and has the flavors i am looking to impart in the beer. I actually like the taste so much i have been considering not carbonating it and drinking it straight out of the barrel!
maybe i will bottle with the cherries and what ever carbination i get from them will be how much it gets carbonated.
I may have transferred too soon in some of your opinions yet from sampling I am picking up no ill effects, the beer is tasting quite like I expected it to. just not oakie enough yet.....

the_sloth said:

I appreciate all the comments and reco's I am getting here. Sampled the worth this weekend, it is quite tasty, very bourbon like and has the flavors i am looking to impart in the beer. I actually like the taste so much i have been considering not carbonating it and drinking it straight out of the barrel!
maybe i will bottle with the cherries and what ever carbination i get from them will be how much it gets carbonated.
I may have transferred too soon in some of your opinions yet from sampling I am picking up no ill effects, the beer is tasting quite like I expected it to. just not oakie enough yet.....

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I cant wit to hear about this. My old roommate and i made a milk stout with toasted French oak chips and burbon last winter it was amazing! People in the neighborhood would come knock on the door asking of they could buy six packs from us.

BrewMonster said:

I cant wit to hear about this. My old roommate and i made a milk stout with toasted French oak chips and burbon last winter it was amazing! People in the neighborhood would come knock on the door asking of they could buy six packs from us.

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Got a recipe?

a few have asked for the recipe of this concoction and as I would like to keep it a guarded secret I will share it in hopes that someone else brews this and can weigh in on what they think. I know it is in beginning stages and I rarely hype my own beers deliciousness (usually let everyone else talk it up--not me) but this beer has won me over immediately. without any further ado:

2lbs crystal rye, thomas fawcett, UK 70-80
2lbs rye malt, breiss, USA 3.7
1lb. maris otter pale ale, bairds, UK 2.5-3.5
1lb victory toasted malt, breiss, USA 25
3lbs golden light DME, USA
3.3lbs golden light CBW breiss LME
3oz. citra whole hops 15.6%/3.5%
1oz. cascade whole hops 8.9%/6.0%
(2) wyeast 3522 belgian ardennes
3tsp. gypsum
2 tsp. irish moss
1/2oz sweet orange peel
1/4 tsp. wyeast nutrient
1/2c. lactose
1/2lb maltodextrin
2/3c. maker's mark w/ 10 dashes angostura bitters & orange zest of one orange
post fermentation:
8oz maker's mark

-add grains to 4 gallons h2o @ 150 degrees, steep for 30 minutes
-raise temp to 158, hold for 30 minutes
-heat 2 1/2c h20 to 170 sparge grains
-raise to boil (60min boil), add DME, LME, malto, gypsum, lactose, 1/2oz citra, 1/2 cascade
-@45mins add 1/2oz citra
-@30mins add 1/2 cascade
-@20mins add irish moss
-@10mins add wyeast nutrient
-@5mins add 2/3c. markers. 1/2oz sweet orange peel, 1/2oz citra, 1/2oz cascade
OG 1.0854
-pitched 2 wyeast 3522 smack packs
-transfer to new oak barrel, adding 8oz. of makers mark bourbon to barrel

after aged to acceptable taste will bottle adding a bourbon soaked maraschino cherry (muddled) to each bottle individually (no priming--this will be the sugar source of carbonation)

bottle condition (few months????) then ENJOY!!

if anyone attempts this please share your thoughts, insights and reviews.....

does anyone have any idea how to figure out what kind of impact adding maker's has to the overall alcohol content? I would imagine doing standard gravity reading would tell me after i transfer to bottle? But any way to figure it out beforehand? I added 5.5oz at five minutes left in boil and another 8oz. direct to barrel post fermentation.

the_sloth said:

does anyone have any idea how to figure out what kind of impact adding maker's has to the overall alcohol content? I would imagine doing standard gravity reading would tell me after i transfer to bottle? But any way to figure it out beforehand? I added 5.5oz at five minutes left in boil and another 8oz. direct to barrel post fermentation.

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I did the math once before for adding whiskey to a beer.
Example based on some of the figures you have posted:
Beer
(7% of 640 oz = 44.8oz pure alcohol)
Bourbon - Some alcohol will boil off, not to sure what percentage, so to make it easy I'll pretend none of the alcohol boiled off from the 5.5 oz added with 5 min left in the boil.
(40% of 13.5 oz = 5.4oz pure alcohol)
Add the figures together
(50.2 oz of pure alcohol in 653.5 oz of total liquid)
Divide to find the Percentage
50.2 divided by 653.5 = 0.0768171385 7.6%

Side Note & Questions:
That is one of the craziest recipes I have ever seen, I understand why your gravity into secondary was so high. All of the Crystal Rye contains no Diastatic Power so doesn't convert into fermentable sugar. I also always wondered why some people split the extract into both LME and DME why not just use 100% of either especially since they are both Golden Light extracts. Also what prompted the use of the Belgian yeast? And your OG seems really high based on my calculations. Why steep the grain at 150 for 30 min then raise to 158 not sure what you were trying to accomplish? If you are going to use gypsum to treat the water it should be added during the steeping (Mashing Phase) I am not sure it does anything during the boil.

All-Grain:
I actually think you may have made a nice Rye IPA I fiddled with it a bit but I actually might use this recipe in the future.

Est Original Gravity: 1.070
Est Final Gravity: 1.014
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.3 %
Bitterness: 79.0 IBUs
Calories: 151.6 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 13.9 SRM


6 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 43.6 %
4 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 29.1 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 3 10.9 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4 9.1 %
1 lbs Crystal Rye Malt (Thomas Fawcett) (80.0 SRM) Grain 5 7.3 %
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 12.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 28.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [13.00 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 8 25.6 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 9 6.2 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 10 2.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min

Thank you so much for those calculations. Seeing them typed out seems like it was a silly question on how to figure it out.
To answer your questions:
1- Honestly not sure why I use both LME and DME, I do not always but did this time - have no better answer than that.
2-The belgian yeast was chosen for its fruit like characteristics and tolerance to higher gravity
3-The change in temps during mash was am attempt to extract different enzymes from grain, read it in a book so thought it was something I was supposed to do?
4-I have always used gypsum in boil, not saying that is right, but I am a newbie and was told to add at start of boil. (knocking on wood) I have never had off flavors due to water so it seems to be either (a) working or (b) I have good water?

If you happen to use the recipe please let me know how you like it and how it turns out.
I use beer calculus for figuring things out, but my notes say I read my hydrometer at 1.085, would not be surprised if I am wrong.

the_sloth said:

3-The change in temps during mash was am attempt to extract different enzymes from grain, read it in a book so thought it was something I was supposed to do?

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That is true but i think that you temps are wrong, and I have never heard of this style of Mashing during an extract brew. The typical steps are around 115, 140, 150, or something like that. I think you would be safe to just steep the grains at 150 for 30 min and call it good.

the_sloth said:

4-I have always used gypsum in boil, not saying that is right, but I am a newbie and was told to add at start of boil. (knocking on wood) I have never had off flavors due to water so it seems to be either (a) working or (b) I have good water?

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I dont think you are going to hurt much by adding gypsum but by adding to the boil I dont think you are really changing anything either. The point of adding minerals to the mash water is to either enhance the malt or hop characteristics or to change the mash PH/residual alkalinity to promote proper conversion. If you don't know what the profile of you water currently looks like I think it would be better not add anything rather then throw your water chemestry out of balance. If you are curious what you water profile is Ward Labs does home water tests.

the_sloth said:

I use beer calculus for figuring things out, but my notes say I read my hydrometer at 1.085, would not be surprised if I am wrong.

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Unless your Hydometer has not been calibrated then I am sure your reading is correct. To calibrate use your hyrdometer in 100% distilled water. if it reads 1.000 you are correctly calibrated.

I am looking to add a maraschino cherry to each bottle individually when I transfer my next batch to bottles.
I ordinarily like my beers slightly under carbed, I use 2/3c dextrose to prime my usual batches. The label on the cherries say there is 2 grams of sugar per cherry, I assume that does not include the syrup. How would I figure out what kind of carbonation I will get by adding just the cherry to the bottle. I certainly do not want these to begin exploding.

When I bottle, I use ~4 oz dextrose, depending on the size and style of the batch for a moderately carbonated beer. With that in mind, you should be able to roughly calculate the impact of the cherries. The syrup is most likely going to be complex sugar, so won't contribute to carbonation.

If you can, weigh your dextrose - volume will vary depending on atmospheric changes.

so the wort is in the barrel, aging. about five days ago the airlock started bubbling, about once every ten seconds or so. still continues to this day. I do not think it is yeast, is this something I need to be worried about? I have tasted it and it is quite yummy, not skunky or any off favors.

the_sloth said:

so the wort is in the barrel, aging. about five days ago the airlock started bubbling, about once every ten seconds or so. still continues to this day. I do not think it is yeast, is this something I need to be worried about? I have tasted it and it is quite yummy, not skunky or any off favors.

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Probably just CO2 escaping out of solution from when you transferred it to the barrel. The rule of thumb is that airlock activity is not a direct indication of fermentation, it is simply a correlation to it. The only way to truly know is through an objective measurement, i.e. hydrometer reading.

By the way, did you ever figure out what kind of sugar you'd be getting from each cherry? I think its a good call on the muddling part, that will help make the sugars available to the yeast in the bottles. If I had to guess, you'd probably want to age it for at least 2 months before opening. The cherry will probably take a while to dissolve and be broken down by the yeast.

after four months in the barrel, it is now ready for bottles, where it will sit for months once again

okay folks, update: batch has been bottled, final gravity was 1.010, leaving the wort at 9.8% before factoring in the maker's contribution. it is now sitting in 23 swing top bottles, 13 12oz., a 22oz, and a 750ml. let's see how much more restraint i can exercise as i now have to wait for the conditioning.

final stats: OG 1.085 FG 1.010 add 19.17 fl oz of 45% alcohol and by my math ABV is 11.7%

the smell was enough to get you drunk, i can not wait to drink this sweet nectar....

this beer is out of control! a huge fan fav! this recipe is going to be a staple brew. i want to thank everyone for their input, it was very helpful. for the record, never did add the cherries individually to the bottles, got lazy and also thought the cherry could be muddled prior to pour, that way people have the option with or without.