The Most Unconventional Hefeweizen You've Heard of

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sidepart

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Update #1 - Primary Fermentor

Update #2 - Secondary Fermentor/Dry Hopping

Update #3 - Finished label, another test.

Here's a recipe I'm going to play with over the summer. The idea is that it'll be a smoked wheat beer. Hoping to get some citrus, apples, plums and a touch of smokiness. First time making a recipe, and I feel like this one's pretty unconventional hop wise. So what do folks think, any thoughts or critiques?

Recipe Volume: 6.5 gallons pre-boil, expect 5 gallons post-boil

Grains/Extracts

6 lbs Briess Wheat LME
1 lbs Briess Golden Light DME
8 oz Briess Carapils

Steep grains for 30 minutes at 155F. Bring wort to boil and add extracts.

Yeast: Wyeast 3638

Bittering Hops

12 AAUs Simcoe Pellets
Add at last 10 minutes of boil. (Ended up going with 1 hour and reducing the amount of Simcoe)

Aroma/Flavor Hops

1 oz Citra Leaf Hops.
Cold Smoked 2 hours with Applewood.
Dry Hop at beginning of secondary fermentor (5-7 days).

Pre-boil Gravity: ~1.040 (used for my utilization table)
OG: 1.053
FG: 1.014
ABV: 5-5.6%
IBUs: 15-16?

The oddities here are that I'm not using the typical hops at all. I'm using some extremely high acidic hops. Simcoe is crazy but I enjoy the aroma and flavor, and I plan to boil it for only a short amount of time so the IBUs don't get out of control. Citra is also acidic but dry hopping won't add to the bitterness. It's similar to Simcoe only a little more citrusy in flavor as I understand it. So hopefully I get some Simcoe aroma and citrus flavor through the dry hopping. The cold smoking will hopefully give me a nice applewood smoke during the dry hopping process as well (not sure about this).

Some variations I have if the Citra smoking doesn't impart enough smoke.

- Add 0.5-1oz of Briess Smoked Malt to the mix. That's about 5-10% of the grain bill, but I just want a touch of smoke.

- If the Simcoe turns out to be an awful disappointment, I might go more conservative with some Liberty and actually have an hour long boil. Will probably keep the Citra dry hop though.

- Might also try completely removing the Citra and Simcoe. Applewood smoking some Liberty, and boiling for an hour to see what that does.

EDIT:

So those are the critical details. Figured I'd also include the name and story for the beer that kind of influences what I've come up with here. Decided to add this for some reason.

Name: Smokey Al

Story: Al was my grandpa. In his final years of life he developed macular degeneration linked to his smoking of Lucky Strikes during WWII (he quit a few years after). I used to see him a lot in the summer time, so those are my fondest memories. I figure the label might include something like, "When drinking Smokey Al you'll hopefully taste a hint of the smokey character of Al and summer time picnics. While peering through a glass of this cloudy brew, you might just be able to see the golden world as he once did." (queue awws and sobbing from the audience)
 
Hefewiezen is a traditional name of a wheat beer with a pretty strict, defined recipe. You pretty much HAVE to have 50% Wheat malt and 50% Pilsner malt, then one Hallertau hops (for traditional Bavarian) or other noble hop addition (for non-traditional) and a Hefeweizen yeast that gives off the signature phenolic character (clove/bananna). Otherwise, it's just not a Hefewiezen.

If you aren't following the traditional recipe pretty closely, it isn't a Hefewiezen, it's just a wiezen/wheat beer.

So, you are making a wheat beer above. You can do a search and find many examples of people making Simcoe Wheats, and they seem to be pretty hit or miss. Most of the flavor and aroma of a weizen is supposed to come from the yeast, not the hops, so you are going to lose alot of the weizen character by adding such distinct hops. You aren't supposed to be able to detect the hops in a weizen/Hefeweizen.

You do realize that adding your Simcoe at 10 minutes isn't going to add much bittering to the beer? You really need to add less hops and let it boil for the full 60 minutes for it to add the bitterness to offset the maltiness of the malt. 0.3 ounces of Simcoe @ 60 will do the same thing as 1.0 ounces of Simcoe @ 10 for your overall bitterness and balance.

Anyway, experiment as you will, but wheats and simcoe/citra seem to not really mix. Those are GREAT for IPAs, wheats, no so much. It's all a matter of taste, though!

Good luck.
 
Thanks for the advice. I had called it a hefeweizen since I adapted it from a hefeweizen recipe originally but I guess I didn't realize how much I really changed things. We'll call it a weizen to be on the safe side here.

I'm not looking for a gut punch of bitterness from the Simcoe (which some people would probably just say, "Then don't use Simcoe") so I'm not expecting much from the boil. I wasn't too sure what I could expect from a 10 minute boil with such a high acidity hop. But it sounds like it may be a better idea to use less hops for a longer boil for different (maybe better) characteristics? Or is it relatively the same thing, but I'd just be paying for less hops?

If the Simcoe/Citra experiment doesn't work out so well, I'll probably end up falling back on Liberty and resorting to smoked malt (maybe smoked wheat) for the hint of smoke. Maybe I can try a more traditional Hallertau. My list of hops to try originally was: "Spalt, Tettnang, Liberty, Hallertau Hersbrucker, Styrian Goldings". Some more different than others obviously, but interesting to me nonetheless.
 
One other hop related thing to think about. The hops have an impact on biological growth in your beer. If you don't reach the desired level of alpha acid you are inviting bacterial growth. I had the unevyable experience earlier this year when I reused some yeast from a barrel project in which we used a very low hop rate to invite bug growth. The rye beer that was not part of the barrel project, but used the same yeast was completely diacetyl. I would use computer program to be sure your hop rate/time of boil produces more than 10 IBU.
 
There are smoked hefeweizens; they aren't that common, but it's one of the styles that can be made with some rauchmalt. I've had an imported German one, one of the local brewpubs made one that was very nice, and I brewed one myself a couple years back. But, what I made (and my understanding of the classic version) is that it's really a basic hefeweizen receipe, but simply using rauchmalt for a portion of the pilsner. It's semantics, but you're getting into something which is an experimental wheat beer, it's not really a hefeweizen any more.
 
Hefewiezen is a traditional name of a wheat beer with a pretty strict, defined recipe. You pretty much HAVE to have 50% Wheat malt and 50% Pilsner malt, then one Hallertau hops (for traditional Bavarian) or other noble hop addition (for non-traditional) and a Hefeweizen yeast that gives off the signature phenolic character (clove/bananna). Otherwise, it's just not a Hefewiezen.

If you aren't following the traditional recipe pretty closely, it isn't a Hefewiezen, it's just a wiezen/wheat beer.

So, you are making a wheat beer above. You can do a search and find many examples of people making Simcoe Wheats, and they seem to be pretty hit or miss. Most of the flavor and aroma of a weizen is supposed to come from the yeast, not the hops, so you are going to lose alot of the weizen character by adding such distinct hops. You aren't supposed to be able to detect the hops in a weizen/Hefeweizen.

You do realize that adding your Simcoe at 10 minutes isn't going to add much bittering to the beer? You really need to add less hops and let it boil for the full 60 minutes for it to add the bitterness to offset the maltiness of the malt. 0.3 ounces of Simcoe @ 60 will do the same thing as 1.0 ounces of Simcoe @ 10 for your overall bitterness and balance.

Anyway, experiment as you will, but wheats and simcoe/citra seem to not really mix. Those are GREAT for IPAs, wheats, no so much. It's all a matter of taste, though!

Good luck.

BJCP conventions aside, it is what the name implies. An unfiltered wheat. Sure, it won't win any awards for the category but there is no genocide implied by calling it a heffeweisen.
 
Also, the name comes from a style originally made in Germany in compliance with German labeling laws. To match what the Germans mean by the style, it has to be at least 50% wheat. Most American wheat beers that aren't like German ones have that high a proportion of wheat too, though there aren't any legal requirements for it here.

The Briess wheat extract is made from a blend of wheat and barley malts, not just wheat, so you're looking at something around one part wheat to three parts barley.

Tasty beer? Almost certainly, I'd love to try one. Like a Hefeweizen? No.
 
One other hop related thing to think about. The hops have an impact on biological growth in your beer. If you don't reach the desired level of alpha acid you are inviting bacterial growth. I had the unevyable experience earlier this year when I reused some yeast from a barrel project in which we used a very low hop rate to invite bug growth. The rye beer that was not part of the barrel project, but used the same yeast was completely diacetyl. I would use computer program to be sure your hop rate/time of boil produces more than 10 IBU.

I calculated somewhere around 15 which is on the high side for the style of beer I'm going for. Is that still inviting infection? I guess do weizens in general have higher infection issues? I feel like I'm usually pretty careful with my sanitation. I really try to act like I'm performing veterinary surgery. Scrub in, gloves, hairnet, apron, don't touch ANYTHING that hasn't been sanitized. Onestep the equipment involved, heat dry in dishwasher. I use an immersion chiller to get things cooled quickly and into the bucket as fast as possible. My only concerns are dust in the air entering the wort, but I try to keep a lid on my pot where possible during the cooling process.
 
I'm picturing Walter at the bowling alley.

LOL.....This beer is definitely "over the line."

The OP wants it to be an 8 really bad.....but I'm going to have to mark it a zero, Dude. There ARE rules.

:rolleyes:
 
Hefewiezen is a traditional name of a wheat beer with a pretty strict, defined recipe. You pretty much HAVE to have 50% Wheat malt and 50% Pilsner malt, then one Hallertau hops (for traditional Bavarian) or other noble hop addition (for non-traditional) and a Hefeweizen yeast that gives off the signature phenolic character (clove/bananna). Otherwise, it's just not a Hefewiezen.

German purity laws state "at least 50%" to be considered as a wheat. Thus implies a minimum. Nothing says that a german wheat MUST have 50% wheat, 50% Pils. Only that at least 50% is required to get the weisen name. The rest usually being pils, munich, or vienna and likely for lautering purposes.

The Briess wheat extract is made from a blend of wheat and barley malts, not just wheat, so you're looking at something around one part wheat to three parts barley.

Data sheets for Briess Bavarian Wheat LME, the only one listed in their products that I found, state 65% Malted Wheat and 35% Malted Barley.

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CBWBavarianWheatLME.pdf
 
Data sheets for Briess Bavarian Wheat LME, the only one listed in their products that I found, state 65% Malted Wheat and 35% Malted Barley.

Ah, yup. I'd thought I remembered it being something like 60/40 but didn't look it up.

Personally, I think straight Briess wheat extract and Hallertau or Tettnang hops make for an awesome Hefe. I also think the smoked hops will give an interesting twist on the style, just not one that's actually the same thing.
 
Ah, yup. I'd thought I remembered it being something like 60/40 but didn't look it up.

Personally, I think straight Briess wheat extract and Hallertau or Tettnang hops make for an awesome Hefe. I also think the smoked hops will give an interesting twist on the style, just not one that's actually the same thing.

My only issue is that so many people pidgeon hole everything based on BJCP, as if THEY created the styles themselves. When, in fact, a German would look at the beer, see that it is cloudy, ask if is a wheat (in which this does contain at least 50% wheat) and call it a Hefeweisen, take a drink and ask if it was brewed on a fruit farm under a pine tree. ;)

The name means wheat with yeast. The BJCP bastardizes it into something more narrow.
 
My only issue is that so many people pidgeon hole everything based on BJCP, as if THEY created the styles themselves. When, in fact, a German would look at the beer, see that it is cloudy, ask if is a wheat (in which this does contain at least 50% wheat) and call it a Hefeweisen, take a drink and ask if it was brewed on a fruit farm under a pine tree. ;)

Yeah. It's a Hefeweizen, just not a traditional one *at all,* and given that there's nothing particularly German about it stylistically I think "wheat beer" would be a more accurate description in terms of setting drinkers' expectations.

The name means wheat with yeast. The BJCP bastardizes it into something more narrow.

I am not, in general, a fan of BJCP style guidelines, but they do a pretty good job for many (but not all!) styles of describing what is most typical of the tradition they are based on.
 
Yeah. It's a Hefeweizen, just not a traditional one *at all,* and given that there's nothing particularly German about it stylistically I think "wheat beer" would be a more accurate description in terms of setting drinkers' expectations.

Ahhh, but the OP did say "most unconventional Hefewiesen" ... :p
 
why not try a more neutral yeast strain? you've got so much going on with the hops and smoke not sure you'd want the estery flavors from a traditional german wheat strain.

simcoe and citra can work great with wheat - i brewed a citra wheat pale ale that was really tasty

also with all the wheat you prob don't need the carapils in there but they won't really harm anything either
 
Yup. I can't disagree with that description, even though I personally wouldn't confuse the issue with the H-word.

I guess I mostly take issue with the concept of "tradition". Too often it's purpose "regulates" creativity or adaptation rather than honoring a base concept.
 
Whew I should've known I'd be inciting a huge discussion over semantics with my crackpot brewing ideas. I'm learning quite a bit about the wheat beer classifications.

why not try a more neutral yeast strain? you've got so much going on with the hops and smoke not sure you'd want the estery flavors from a traditional german wheat strain.

simcoe and citra can work great with wheat - i brewed a citra wheat pale ale that was really tasty

also with all the wheat you prob don't need the carapils in there but they won't really harm anything either

I guess I'm not sure where I'd go with this one. The strain I picked was mainly for it's fruitiness. I thought it'd go well with the smoke. Kind of a summer picnic BBQ is the mental picture I'm getting out of this beer. I am worried about the complexity of the yeast though. I'm hoping it doesn't turn into a cluster **** of smells and flavors.

Specifically though, I am going for the cloudiness produced (I think) by these more traditional weizen yeasts. Not because I adore cloudy beer...but there's a complicated story (about my passed grandfather) behind this brew that's influencing its ingredients and style.

Mainly just including the Carapils on a recommendation because it's a neutral grain that promotes head retention I guess.

EDIT: Upon further consideration, I decided to add the complicated story behind this brew that's influencing the recipe to the OP.
 
the wheat will give you tons of head retention on it's own

you can also try using a fruity low floculating yeast that is a little cleaner like a kolsch yeast

wyeast 2565 is fruity and has similar floculation properties per their description

i like the concept behind it, esp trying to smoke the hops - def curious to hear how it turns out :mug:
 
If the rules and definitions don't matter, why don't we just call it a Grande Hazelnut Mocha Latte? :hs: ;)

Because his beer lacks hazelnuts, chocolate and milk, that's why. He's calling it an unconventional, smoked Hefeweizen. That's exactly what he's got, since he's using roughly 50% wheat, Hefe yeast and some smoke flavor. Adding fruit to a Pale Ale doesn't make it "not a Pale Ale" anymore. :D


The rye beer that was not part of the barrel project, but used the same yeast was completely diacetyl.

Maybe you had a massive Pediococus colony and not enough Brettanomyces to clean it up. Pedio makes diacetyl and Bretts chews it up later, if I recall my souring lore correctly.


The strain I picked was mainly for it's fruitiness. I thought it'd go well with the smoke. Kind of a summer picnic BBQ is the mental picture I'm getting out of this beer ... Specifically though, I am going for the cloudiness produced (I think) by these more traditional weizen yeasts ... there's a complicated story (about my passed grandfather) behind this brew

Just a recommendation here, I'd think that the "clove" flavor associated with cold-fermented Hefe's might match the smoke better than the fruit. I'm just not sure what flavor combo I've had that mixed fruit and smoke, outside of smoked chili peppers (yum). If you ferment that yeast cold (61-63F) you'll get more clove than banana (can't imagine banana and smoke mixing well), but hey, its your beer! Experiment away!

And the whole concept behind the beer is very, very cool. Best of luck to ya. :rockin:
 
Just a recommendation here, I'd think that the "clove" flavor associated with cold-fermented Hefe's might match the smoke better than the fruit. I'm just not sure what flavor combo I've had that mixed fruit and smoke, outside of smoked chili peppers (yum). If you ferment that yeast cold (61-63F) you'll get more clove than banana (can't imagine banana and smoke mixing well), but hey, its your beer! Experiment away!

And the whole concept behind the beer is very, very cool. Best of luck to ya. :rockin:

I read that too, and I was thinking the same thing about trying to bring out the clove instead of the banana. My basement keeps the wort at roughly 64-66F right now, which is already on the low end of most ale yeast. Maybe I'll stick the bucket on the floor to make it a tad cooler.
 
Any yeast that ferments fast (including Hefe strains) will ramp the beer's temp up as much as 10 degrees above ambient, at peak fermentation. Having a basement at 64F is a great thing, but definitely keep it in a water bath to keep the fermentation temps a degree or two below that.

Down here in Florida, the ambient temps are only good for making Saisons :(
 
Any yeast that ferments fast (including Hefe strains) will ramp the beer's temp up as much as 10 degrees above ambient, at peak fermentation. Having a basement at 64F is a great thing, but definitely keep it in a water bath to keep the fermentation temps a degree or two below that.

Down here in Florida, the ambient temps are only good for making Saisons :(

Good advice, I'll keep track of that and maybe use a water bath. The basement ambient temp is cooler than that by a little. I was saying the average wort temperature I've been getting is usually around 64-66 when it's in the basement. I bet with a hefe strain it could go up a little.
 
Didn't mean to scare you about infection. It sounds like you are very careful. If you do in fact hit 15 IBU you should be just fine. I'm not sure you can make that assumption with a 15 minute bittering hop boil. It takes time for the alpha acid in hops to isomerize and become a factor. Probably better to use a smaller amount and boil them for the entire time. Then do whatever late hop additions you want for flavor/aroma.
As far as grain I think you are right on with the carapils for head retention since this is a partial mash. I made a smoked hefe to resemble bamberg ones (they don't add smoke malt, but the hefes pick up small amounts of smoke from the equipment). I remember thinking next time leave it out. It wasn't bad though, I just like some straight up hefe.
 
The problem was in the carboy. The bugs were added to the barrel. It was probably pedio or lacto but was not supposed to be in there. Live and learn, unfortunately I'm super sensative to diacetyl so the rye went down the drain.
 
The brew is in the bucket right now fermenting, and it started bubbling pretty good the day after.

I decided to do about 1 hour with 0.3oz of 12.9%AA Simcoe. Took a hydrometer reading after the boil. It came out to an OG of about 1.049 (close). It's probably because I started with 6.5 gallons and only managed to boil it down to about 5.5-5.75 gallons.

I tasted what I tested with the hydrometer. Tasted like honey, then a sharp kick of Simcoe bitter followed immediately by citrus. I have a feeling the sharpness is going to die down a bit once the yeast go to work. Should only be about 14-15 IBUs. Can't wait to taste it with the yeast when I add it to the secondary.

So far so good.
 
Funny to see this thread, I actually wrote a recipe for a smoked hefeweizen that I haven't brewed yet. I wanted to make a classic Bavarian hef first so I can harvest all that tasty tasty yeast for the smoked hef and some roggenbier. I think it's a great idea, and if we like it, maybe we'll put it on tap at the brewery.
 
I put a BMW ornament on my Honda Civic hood last night. It doesn't have the BMW engine, or the BMW rims, or the BMW interior, or the BMW body.....in short it isn't what one would call a traditional BMW, but it says BMW right there on the hood....clear as day....so it's a mf'n BMW!

Lol, sorry, I couldn't resist!! :ban:
 
Funny to see this thread, I actually wrote a recipe for a smoked hefeweizen that I haven't brewed yet. I wanted to make a classic Bavarian hef first so I can harvest all that tasty tasty yeast for the smoked hef and some roggenbier. I think it's a great idea, and if we like it, maybe we'll put it on tap at the brewery.

You planning on using smoked grains for it? I'm really not sure if I'll get any smoke flavor out of the hops with this recipe.

I put a BMW ornament on my Honda Civic hood last night. It doesn't have the BMW engine, or the BMW rims, or the BMW interior, or the BMW body.....in short it isn't what one would call a traditional BMW, but it says BMW right there on the hood....clear as day....so it's a mf'n BMW!

Lol, sorry, I couldn't resist!! :ban:

How about this: I call it a Davidweiss with the specific rules that it needs to be a wheat beer, use high AA hops but have low IBUs, contain some smokiness, and also contain a cluster **** of random flavors? :D
 
You planning on using smoked grains for it? I'm really not sure if I'll get any smoke flavor out of the hops with this recipe.

Yea, I'm not sure either. My recipe definitely has smoked malts- I don't really have the ability right now to smoke anything, so smoked hops are out.
 
I have another update on the Smokey Al. Just racked it to the secondary fermentor. The highly active Wyeast strain left a lovely gelatinous ring around the top of my bucket.

I cold smoked the hops for a couple of hours prior to racking the beer. The citra smelled fantastic, nice citrus aroma. I smoked them with applewood chips, and it surprisingly did change the aroma profile of the hops. They really do smell like apples and lemons now. I think they're going to add a great aroma and flavor to the beer. We'll see how smokey it makes the flavor.

Here's a picture of the cold smoking process. At first it didn't seem to be doing much. Later on I got a spray bottle and spritzed the hops with some water. I figured the smoke would stick better then. After completing the process they were completely dried out again (which is good I think).

The sample of the beer that I took, came out to be at about 1.018 SG, so we're almost to my final gravity. I'll let it condition in the secondary for this week and see if it ends up where I want it. Bottling happens next week. The sample also tasted amazing, I was very surprised. I don't think I've had such a tasty (hefe)weizen before. I almost wanted to bottle it right there and hope it wouldn't change during the bottle conditioning phase. The blunt Simcoe punch was considerably muted as I had hoped. The citrusy flavors still remained however. It was accompanied by cloves and sweeter flavors (plum?), and maybe just a hint of banana. I honestly didn't detect much at all unless I aerated it (I got bubble gum all of a sudden, and I was certain of the previously vague banana flavor when I did that).

Hoping the dry hopping goes well, the smoke particles concern me, and I hope they don't infect the beer. If it does, I'll have made a huge mistake.

Also in process of making a label. It's not quite finished yet, but here's where I'm at.
 
I nearly made the decision to bottle today but I'm going to wait. Took another sample. Still tastes fantastic. There might be some smoke but very hard to tell. I wanted subtle but it's maybe too subtle. So I'm going to leave it in the secondary for more time. I read 10 days minimum for dry hopping...it's only been 4.

Still getting 1.018 sg. The yeast is probably done. I might try a starter next time to see if I get better attenuation.
 
Hope people don't mind me punting this thread by giving these updates. If it's not appreciated, I'll add them to the original post in the future.

Going to bottle tomorrow. Surprising the gravity dropped to about ~1.015 last Friday. I noticed the sample I took tasted even more smokier than it had previously. It's still subtle but it's not an uncertain flavor anymore. If you aerate it, you really do get the idea that there's smoke in the beer. I'm honestly surprised it worked.

Label is also finished...pending the final name for my "brewing" operation. Grillen is just the German version of my last name...not sure it's catchy enough.

Label (it's a little large).
Label on bottle (used the milk method).
 
It's been at least 2 weeks since bottling and I've already run out of a full case of this stuff. I thought it was decent but I figure I'm biased. Everyone else friggin' LOVES this stuff, I had no idea it'd be this popular. Didn't even mention the smoked hops to people, I wanted to see if they could detect it, and everyone could. It was subtle and just right was the consensus. I thought I was just imagining things. The two "worst" responses I got were that the beer was "confusing" but in a delicious way.

Had some concerns early on because I primed the bottles for 4vols of CO2 (that's what I wanted, but too much for bottles to handle I later found). I ended up venting all of my bottles 3 days in to avoid bottle bombs. Still turned out great. Guess it's going to be around 3vols of CO2 it's really fizzy, but that's what I wanted.

The Knox gelatin adhesive I made for the labels is also working perfectly. Some labels are staying on even in the cooler (those that don't only partially come off). Soaking in hot water, they come off in minutes.

I fermented at about 77-78F...too hot, I couldn't control it. I can taste the banana (didn't really want that), but apparently it's not overpowering and people like the flavor it's at right now. I kind of want to try again with better temp control (get more clove flavor), but I'm not sure I want to fudge this recipe since it turned out to be a hit. Glad I documented EVERYTHING in my journal. This one's going into the folder of regular recipes.

If anyone wants to try my recipe for themselves, feel free. Reply or PM me if there are any questions.

Also...I did some research on the hole BJCP guidelines I was being pigeon holed on earlier. I can call this a hefeweizen with it having at least 50% wheat. I'm using a hefeweizen yeast. Those are the guidelines. It's a smoked hefeweizen. If it's not, show me where it says so: http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style15.php :D
 
Right on, dude. I like the way you think. Ignore those bjcp guidelines. Make great beers and thats all. As Brewdog guys says: join the revolution!
 
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