Oktoberfest marzen

Hey folks; I will be cranking out this beer in the next week. Please feel free to comment and critique. I wanted a strong Munich presence. Most recipes I see have large amounts of pils and Vienna and very little Munich. Any thoughts appreciated.

It looks pretty damned tasty. I love lots of Munich in my festbiers. To me a lot of the current recipes are more "bumped up" Helles than what I would consider a traditional festbier or Marzen. In fact I would even consider decreasing the percentage of pils malt in the recipe and adding more Vienna or even Munich, maybe almost reversing the amounts of Vienna and Pils.

BigEd said:

It looks pretty damned tasty. I love lots of Munich in my festbiers. To me a lot of the current recipes are more "bumped up" Helles than what I would consider a traditional festbier or Marzen. In fact I would even consider decreasing the percentage of pils malt in the recipe and adding more Vienna or even Munich, maybe almost reversing the amounts of Vienna and Pils.

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Hey Ed: Thanks for the advice. I will bump up the Munich to 6lbs and decrease the Pils 3lbs. I only has 2 lbs of Vienna so can't mess with those numbers and I have a lot of Pils and Munich grains to use. Thanks again, I was afraid of using too much Munich but it seems not to be a problem. Charlie

26 IBU ??

Do most Oktoberfests have a high IBU like this??

ApolloSpeed said:

26 IBU ??

Do most Oktoberfests have a high IBU like this??

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It's certainly within range AFAIK especially with an OG pushing 60. This will still be a most definitely malt dominated brew.

I think the range on the oktoberfest is 20-28. I have made a similar recipe though wouldnt really classify it an oktoberfest but it had an IBU of 28.8.. a little on the bitter side for this brew.. But I really liked it.. My OG was 1.067.. I guess its all about what you like in a beer..

You didn't mention how long the decoction boils were but I would boil the first one for at least 30 minutes...probably 45. Looks tasty.

SpanishCastleAle said:

You didn't mention how long the decoction boils were but I would boil the first one for at least 30 minutes...probably 45. Looks tasty.

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Good point. With my recent Boh Pils I only boiled it for 10(I think, no notes here) and my Vienna I boiled for 30 or more minutes. I do plan a long boil for the Oktoberfest. This might be my last lager for the season but I will be ready for next Decembers lagering peiod. This will be my 3rd lager this year. Without a fermentation fridge I must rely on mother nature. She's been very good to me this year as I was able to keep my fermentation @ 50F/10C.

I may have a bit of confusion regarding Marzen/Oktoberfest beers (and Maibocks as well).

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Marzens were brewed in March with the intention to be consumed in late summer...which to me implies 'before Oktoberfest' (Oktoberfest actually starts in September).
I thought Oktoberfests were brewed with the intention to be consumed at Oktoberfest.
But other than that they are essentially the same beer?

Marzens are named from the month they are brewed...where I thought Maibocks were named from the month they are consumed.

I hope this isn't too OT balto?

SpanishCastleAle said:

I may have a bit of confusion regarding Marzen/Oktoberfest beers (and Maibocks as well).

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Marzens were brewed in March with the intention to be consumed in late summer...which to me implies 'before Oktoberfest' (Oktoberfest actually starts in September).
I thought Oktoberfests were brewed with the intention to be consumed at Oktoberfest.
But other than that they are essentially the same beer?

Marzens are named from the month they are brewed...where I thought Maibocks were named from the month they are consumed.

I hope this isn't too OT balto?

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From what I have read Marzen and Oktoberfest names are the same brew. Marzen "is" the original name for the beer served at Oktoberfest and is the named after March. They also call it Festbier and Oktoberfest. Maybe some brewers could wait until fall to drink their brew(like me) so there are reportss of it being consumed in late summer. These beers are brewed in March for a fall serving after lagering in caves for the summer.
I believe you are correct about Maibocks name. It is served in May but I am clueless when it is brewed, I'm guessing sometime in the winter (January??). I hope to do one next winter for May serving.

Here is my view on this:

The distinction between Oktoberfest and Maerzen is not that clear cut. Originally the Oktoberfestbier was a Maerzen b/c the beer brewed during the summer wasn’t very shelf stable and good, so they brewed a lot during March and kept it cold in caves and ice houses. Once of the reasons for not being able to brew good beer during the summer was the inability to cool the wort fast enough and keep fermentation temps below 50F.

But today you don’t get a Maerzen at the Oktoberfest. What you get is a Wiesenbier (since the okboberfest is called the “Wies’n&#8221. Ed is correct that this Bier is more of a Festbier. These beers are basically a mix between a Helles and a Maibock and not as malty as the classic Maerzen. They are also better attenuated so you can gulp down many of them. BTW, the Spaten Oktoberfest Maerzen that you get in the store here is not the beer that they serve on the Wies’n.

I’m about to put the finishing touches on two articles about German brewing in the later half of the 1800s. This will shed some light on the winter/summer beer thing and also how the beers back then were brewed. Stay tuned for that.

I actually make a Maerzen, which I brew in March, and an Oktoberfest (which I brew in the summer) for my Oktoberfest party. The Maerzen is more traditional and maltier and the Oktoberfest is more modern. I then point out these differences to the guests who care.

Kai

That is very Interesting Kaiser. Puts a spin on the oktoberfest beer recipe I had in front of me. I like the phrase.. "Better attenuated so you can guld down many of them" really puts some ideas in my head about this brew..

Supposedly one time a brewery ran out of Oktoberfest beer and they made more by mixing their Maibock with their Helles.

Kai

Kaiser said:

Here is my view on this:



I actually make a Maerzen, which I brew in March, and an Oktoberfest (which I brew in the summer) for my Oktoberfest party. The Maerzen is more traditional and maltier and the Oktoberfest is more modern. I then point out these differences to the guests who care.

Kai

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Hey Kai What are the different recipes if you don't mind me asking. I actually sent Ayinger an email asking for their recipe. They still haven't replied. I realy love their festbier. Charlie

balto charlie said:

I actually sent Ayinger an email asking for their recipe. They still haven't replied. I realy love their festbier. Charlie

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Keep waiting. No way that they will send it to you. And even if it might be very simple and you’ll have to copy their process (including fermenter size) to copy the beer.

I used to make my Marzen with 75% PiMa, 10% MuMa, 5% CaraMunich I (I think this is similar to the recipe Dan Gordon mentioned once on TBN) but was not satisfied. This year I plan to go with 50% ViMa and 50% MuMa (the light kind). Only one 60 min hop addition.

The Oktoberfest will be more along the lines of 80% PiMa and 20% MuMa with a 60 min hop addition and a 20 min one. But I’m not sure yet.

Kai

Kai,

With a 50-50 Vienna-Munich bill, what kind of a mash schedule are you looking at? I take it a simple single infusion wouldn't cut it, due to those malts not being highly modified?

I want to brew a traditional Marzen this month for drinking next fall.

Thanks,

Those malts are sufficienctly well modified these days and you can go with a single infusion mash. But a more interesting option is a Hochkurz double decoction:

145F held for 20-30 min -> thick decoction boiled for 15-30 min -> 160F held for 30 min -> thin decoction boiled for 10 min -> 170F

I plan to use a more intense version where I dough in around 90F and use a large decoction to get to 152F and then another one to get to 170F. Given the intensity of this mash I may add some CaraFoam to compensate the greater protein degradation that happens with this mash.

Kai

I plan to use a more intense version where I dough in around 90F and use a large decoction to get to 152F and then another one to get to 170F. Given the intensity of this mash I may add some CaraFoam to compensate the greater protein degradation that happens with this mash.

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I'd love to see this Kai. I like doughing at the acid rest temp and would like to have the option to skip the protein rest. But the jump from acid to sacc rest if pretty big. So it's either that or being concerned about the mash sitting at really low sacc rest temps for too long if I used an elevated protein rest temp. Hope that made sense.

Kaiser said:

145F held for 20-30 min -> thick decoction boiled for 15-30 min -> 160F held for 30 min -> thin decoction boiled for 10 min -> 170F

I plan to use a more intense version where I dough in around 90F and use a large decoction to get to 152F and then another one to get to 170F. Given the intensity of this mash I may add some CaraFoam to compensate the greater protein degradation that happens with this mash.

Kai

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Is there a problem with a slower temp increase than by using a decoction method? What if I used this mash schedule with a HERMS setup (other than losing the flavor properties created by boiling some grain)?

I don’t think that there is a benefit to starting at 90F except for being able to boil a lot of grain. To make that large of a jump, the decoction is about 60% of the mash volume and you’ll have to make sure it converts before it is brought to boiling.

Kai

Couevas said:

Is there a problem with a slower temp increase than by using a decoction method? What if I used this mash schedule with a HERMS setup (other than losing the flavor properties created by boiling some grain)?

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You would spend an awful lot of time in the protein rest range, which is probably not a good thing especially if SNR > 40 which it will be for most malt.

Kaiser said:

I don’t think that there is a benefit to starting at 90F except for being able to boil a lot of grain. To make that large of a jump, the decoction is about 60% of the mash volume and you’ll have to make sure it converts before it is brought to boiling.

Kai

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So If I doughed in to hit 145, held it there for 30 minutes then cranked to 160 and held there for 30, then brought to 178 for mashout prior to sparge, I would be good to go?

Sorry, I have never step mashed before.

Couevas said:

So If I doughed in to hit 145, held it there for 30 minutes then cranked to 160 and held there for 30, then brought to 178 for mashout prior to sparge, I would be good to go?

Sorry, I have never step mashed before.

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Yes, that sounds right. Go for it.

Kai

"the Spaten Oktoberfest Maerzen that you get in the store here is not the beer that they serve on the Wies’n."

Kai, Whats the difference between the two?

Bulls Beers said:

Kai, Whats the difference between the two?

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I wish I could tell you, but I haven't been on the Wiesn' for a long time.

Kai

How does this look?

Traditional Marzen/Oktoberfest

6 lbs Munich
6 lbs Vienna
2 oz. Hallertau (60 min)
Wyeast Bavarian Lager 2206

Dough in to achieve 145 degrees. Hold for 30 minutes.
Step up to 160 degrees. Hold for 30 minutes.
Step up to 178 degrees. Sparge as necessary.

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This is about the same as the one I plan to brew.

Kai

>>> Step up to 178 degrees. Sparge as necessary.

I would not go that high. 170 is good enough.

Dough in to achieve 145 degrees. Hold for 30 minutes.
Step up to 160 degrees. Hold for 30 minutes.
Step up to 178 degrees. Sparge as necessary.


....am I the only one here that is lost as to what this means?

This doesn't sound as easy as I thought a Mash Tun would be.

Care to break it down for a beginner in Mash Tunning? Layman's terms...

ApolloSpeed said:

Dough in to achieve 145 degrees. Hold for 30 minutes.
Step up to 160 degrees. Hold for 30 minutes.
Step up to 178 degrees. Sparge as necessary.


....am I the only one here that is lost as to what this means?

This doesn't sound as easy as I thought a Mash Tun would be.

Care to break it down for a beginner in Mash Tunning? Layman's terms...

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Sorry Apollo,

This is a step mash schedule for all-grain brewing.
It is definately not the easiest way to mash grain. Most common malts today can be mashed with one constant temperature to convert the grain's starches to fermentable sugars (usually between 140 and 160 degrees). When us anal retentive brewers become obsessed with the details, we start wanting to step mash at different temperatures to optimize the different stages and types of enzymes that become active at different temperatures to break down different types of starches.

A mash temperature around 145 should be good for a single temperature mash on this brew and will get good utilization of the two main types of enzymes.

Does this make sense?

EDIT: By the way, the mash tun is the vessel you mash in, not the process itself. The process is just called mashing.

ok....so in theory, start by warming the pot to 145. And let the grains soak for 30 minutes.....then slowly the the grain to 160 for 30 minutes.

All of this while the grain is still in the pot right?

And then take the grain out, and put into another pot at 170-178 for the teabagging...aka Sparge?

Is that right?

I am not sure what you are trying to do. Are you attempting your first all-grain? If so, I wouldn't recommend a step mash. If you still want to, do a search for "Brew in a Bag." You will need something to strain the grain out of the wort (false bottom, braid, grain bag, etc.)

I've done a couple all grains before....

I'm just trying to get everything under my belt as to what I'm doing. I kinda used DeathBrewers Easy allgrain method. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-stovetop-all-grain-brewing-pics-90132/

Worked fairly well....but my efficiency just kinda sucks. I always get around 60-65% I've hit 70% a couple times with mini-mashes....but never with AG.

I think I'm about to try using a Mash Tun, I just need to get everything straight before I start building. I'm still undecided which Tun to make yet.

I just wanna make a good Oktoberfest like Sam Adams or Spaten damnit!! hahaha

If you are going for a single infusion, don't use a rest temp of 145F. The resulting wort will be too fermentable and the conversion may also take longer than 60 min. For a single infusion you would use 150F.

But there is nothing wrong with stove top mashing. I have been doing this for my last few batches and I really like it. If the mash is thin enough (which it generally should be for German styles) you won't have trouble stirring it during heating. And the rests can easily be held by wrapping the pot in a blanket or two. There is also no problem hitting the rest temps precisely since you slowly approach them and when they are reached you can remove the pot from the burner. This is how home mashing is commonly done in Germany.

Kai

I finally brewed this baby yesterday. I did a double decoction. It is bubbling away in the 50F basement "cold" room. Hopefully temps will hold for the next 10 days or so. OG was 1.060
Final recipe:
6 lbs Munich light
3 lbs Pils
2 lbs Vienna
.5lb carapils
1 oz Mt Hod(60min)
.5 oz Hallertauer (30Min)
German Bock lager yeast (WLP 833)I read this yeast gives a less sweet flavor. We shall see. Thanks for all the advice and will post when the flavor test is complete.

Kaiser said:

This is about the same as the one I plan to brew.

Kai

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So Kai,

What is your actual recipe?

Couevas said:

So Kai,

What is your actual recipe?

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50% light munich
50% vienna

mash with the double decoction that boils 60% of the mash. I don't know yet what sacc rest temp I will be using as I'll have to look at my notes for that.

60 min boil w/o hops added shortly before the start of the boil. For the amount of hops I'll have to look at notes from previous beers.

Ferment with WY2206

I haven't brewed this recipe yet and so I only know the rough outline.

Kai

What kind of attenuation do you typically get with WY2206?

I ask because this Yeast Comparison chart says that both the WY2206 and White Labs WLP820 are the same yeast...it also says that they are the Weihenstephan 206 strain. But Wyeast lists the attenuation as 73%-77% and White lists it as 65%-73%...which is a significant difference considering it's supposedly the same strain.

I have used the WLP820 recently and got ~73% (OG - 1.054, FG 1.0145)...which based on my mash (decoction with 150 F sacc rest) should be at the high end of attenuation limit. That brew (Vienna Lager) is a malt bomb right now...maybe it just needs time...it is a bit young.

SpanishCastleAle,

Forget about those attenuation numbers on the WY and WL web sites. They are misleading. Instead read this: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Attenuation

Since I always do the fast ferment test, I know what part of attenuation comes from the yeast and what comes from mashing. My experiences with WY2206 is that it has a hard time getting the last sugars and it likes to leave a difference of 3-5% between the limit of attenuation (FFT) and the actual beer attenuation. If I want to get it closer to the limit of attenuation, i.e. less residual fermentable sugars, I have to keep the beer on the yeast for a long time and/or warm it up quite a bit. But now that I have the WLP830 in my library I’ll be using this for beers where I want a low amount of residual fermentable sugars (Pilsners for example).

But the more malt oriented Bavarian beers need this residual amount of fermentable sugars and the WY2206 works best for them.

Kai

balto charlie said:

Decoction Mash, Double​

Step Time
Name
Description
Step Temp
10 min
dough in
Add 22.00 qt of water at 139.6 F
134.0 F
90 min
Saccharification
Decoct 7.83 qt of mash and boil it
158.0 F
10 min
Mash Out
Decoct 4.71 qt of mash and boil it
168.0 F
​

[/CENTER]

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I am trying to understand this double decoction process for an Oktoberfest I am brewing this weekend (very similar to your recipe). I would like to use this double decoction schedule but want to make sure I understand.

1. Heat 22 Qt water to 139.6 F and add grains, stir, let rest 10 mins
2. Take out 7.83 Qt of grain and boil for 30 min, then add back to mash to raise temp to 158º for 90 min
3. Take out 4.71 Qt of grain, boil for 30 min, add back to mash to raise temp to 168º for 10 min
4. Sparge with 3.4 gal water at 170º

Does all that seem right? Please let me know!