Pliny the Younger Clone

The wort in the secondary is looking extremely clear at this point. 3rd dry hop addition went in last night. The final addition goes in this friday, and it'll get kegged middle of next week.

And..... It's done! http://bertusbrewery.blogspot.com/2012/07/ipa-clone-series-pliny-younger.html

It's been in the keg around a week now, and I can't see it getting much better other than the clarity improving a little more. It turned out pretty incredible, but less like PTE than I thought. The hop profile is more citrusy and Amarillo-forward than I figured it would have been. There's still some pine in there, but it's not as in your face as it is in the Elder.

It definitely has a big 'alcohol' character to it, but that's to be expected with a dry 10.6% beer. I personally would like to see the same recipe brewed with an english yeast, and finishing out around 1.014.

But ya, pretty awesome beer. The bitterness is not very intense, it lingers smoothly in the background, but it's not biting. I'd say the amount of hop extract is definitely accurate. I'd love to see how close this is to the real thing. Maybe one day...

Looks wonderful! What a coincidence, I made my first pilgrimage to Russian River on the 6th. Quick question, and forgive me I'm a n00b to brewing, about ready to try a Blind Pig clone but I was wondering when you added the dextrose?

Brewed this yesterday...quite a lot of hop mass in the kettle. Hit 1.090 OG and it's currently fermenting away with WLP090 (San Diego) since that's what I had on hand.

Awesome!! Let me know how it turns out.

I submitted this beer to a competition a couple weekends ago, and it placed 2nd. Still waiting for the scoresheets to see the comments and the score. I'm actually surprised it did well, as the alcohol character is a bit too big for a double ipa.

scottland said:

Awesome!! Let me know how it turns out.

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Not that great. Hit my OG right on, but FG is 1.026. In the time it was brewed until now, I had a lot of stuff going on, so I only cracked the fermentor just now. Way too sweet.

This was with WLP090 San Diego Super Yeast...wasn't so super. Might try to rehydrate a pack of US05 and see if that does anything. If not, I'll try some enzyme to bring it down...just way too sweet. 1.090 was the OG. Still haven't dryhopped yet.

Ya, some amalyze and a fresh pitch of yeast might help.

In your blog you mentioned that after you finished the boil you had a sticky film from the hop extract. Did you add it when you had a full rolling boil? Hop Union mentions that not having your wort at a full rolling boil can cause that. Or do you think that your wort was saturated with hop extract?

It was a full rolling boil. I used some again for a Pliny the Elder clone 2.5weeks ago, and same thing. It's not horrible to clean, as a good dose of oxyclean takes it off. It just takes a bit more to clean than I'm used to.

Basically, take some hops, run them hard in your hands, then feel your hands after. That's how the kettle was.

How does it age?

Not all that well. I saved a bottled, and the hop aroma was a ghost of it's former self within 90 days. Still tasted good, but no comparison to when it was fresh

scottland said:

Not all that well. I saved a bottled, and the hop aroma was a ghost of it's former self within 90 days. Still tasted good, but no comparison to when it was fresh

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That usually happens to my IPAs but I use a lot less hops than this. I was expecting it last longer.

Alright, re-brewing this today. We made it up to RRBC last weekend, and got to try it straight from the source. My first attempt was close, but too fruity. So, I've made some adjustments. Check my blog in the signature for the long-winded version of my recipe formulation.

17.25lbs 2-row
12oz Carapils
7oz C40
1lb Dextrose
Mash @ 145 for 75min, then 155 for 10min (I know this isn't RR's mash schedule, but it will maximize my attenuation.)
35ml Hop Extract @ 90
5ml Hop Extract @ 45
10g CTZ @ 45
1.5oz Simcoe @ 30
2.5oz Simcoe @ 0
1.5oz Centennial @ 0
1oz Amarillo @ 0
.5oz Chinook @ 0
350bil cells of WLP001
DH1: .5oz ea Simcoe/Amarillo/Warrior
DH2: 1oz ea Centennial/CTZ
DH3: .5oz ea Simcoe/Chinook + .25oz Warrior
DH4: 1oz ea Simcoe/Amarillo

I formulated the dry hop schedule based on the percentages of each hop I wanted total. I didn't put much thought into which hops which weeks. They very well might do something different. Warrior struck me as super odd, but I heard from a couple places that there is definitely a fair amount of Warrior in the dry hop this year.

I'm really excited/anxious to see how this turns out. I think it's going to be damn close.

subscribed

Too fruity from the yeast or the hops?

Definitely hops. Too much of that Amarillo/Centennial thing. I cut back on those this time around.

I was thinking that i would brew something similar but sub the hop extract for FWH of 3 oz of Magnum. Do you think that would work?

I would never FWH Pliny or use Magnum to bitter it. If anything, use a little less of a very high alpha CTZ or Apollo. You need that harsh marijuana-esque dankness.

Ya, what bob said. If you want to make Pliny you need a bittering hop with some character. You'll make a good double/triple IPA, but it'll lack that Pliny quality. If you want to clone this without extract, get your hands on the highest %AA hop you can find, and use 70AAU worth (3.9oz @ 18%AA)

Anyway, brew day went smooth. Took 5.25gal into the fermenter at 1.089. Oddly enough, the exact OG I hit last year. I blasted the wort for 90sec with O2, which I'll probably repeat tomorrow. It's in the yeast's hands from here. 1.008 or lower is the goal.

That sounds amazing. Interested to see and read about the final results compared to last time you brewed this beer, as well as any pointers from your experience for a more successful clone.

Scottland, thank you for your passion and your efforts on cloning PTY. We’re giving your recipe a spin this weekend, and I appreciate your approach around organizing the dry hop schedule. But, a couple of questions come to mind regarding the latest revision. Why did you cut back on the sugar and why the change on the mash temperature? I got the impression 148 degrees and 1.33 lbs of sugar worked pretty well as far as FG. And for clarification, I understand that you cold-crashed after reaching FG, and then dry-hopped at room temperature?

Thanks
Jim

Ya, no worries. This is a beer that definitely needs a solid clone recipe floating around. Hopefully we'll get there =)

FYI, for the dry hop schedule, I focused on the total hop amounts (2oz Simcoe, 1.5oz Amarillo, 1oz Centennial, 1oz CTZ, .75oz Warrior, .5oz Chinook). The way I divided those up probably isn't identical to how RRBC divides them up. Personally, I don't feel it will make much difference. I just tried to keep each addition around 1.5-2oz each. I was/am still tempted to flip the Amarillo and Centennial amounts. I don't know...

I was torn on the sugar. Part of me said to use less because Russian River probably uses less. The other part of me was scared this beer wouldn't attenuate as much as I want. I don't know. Lean more towards your experience with your brew system, and how WLP001 attenuates for you at given mash temps. I'm pretty sure I can hit sub-1.008 with this grain bill and mash temp. We'll see in about 10 days. I'm also fermenting very cool (62F) to keep the hot alcohols down; that's probably not helping. hahaha

I'm not going to fully crash the primary, I'm just going to drop it to 50F or so to get most of the yeast to drop out. I'll then flush a keg with CO2, rack into that, and dry hop at room temperature. The keg will come in handy as I can flush it with CO2 after every hop addition. I oxidized a batch of Union Jack a few weeks ago because I wasn't careful with it in the secondary. I won't make that mistake with this beer. From there, I'll rack to a clean keg to serve in.

In 7-9 days we'll know how it attenuated. Updates to follow.

Very interesting thread! Thank you for sharing your hard work and experiences with us.

I had the younger last week (last day) at the pub and my friends who live there told me that they ran out of the batch that was brewed at the pub and was actually younger from the production brewery. They said that the pub version wasn't as sweet and had a nicer hop character. So evidently there is some variability even at Russian River.

Question? Would it make sense to add the sugar latter in fermentation with a beer this big?

Sure, I'm just lazy, so I added it during the boil.

I've got a question regarding this recipe. What is the theory behind using four separate dry-hop additions rather than one, two, or three?

One thing you have to remember is you are shooting at a moving target. I heard that Vinnie changes the hop bill pretty regularly.

Ya, I did some googling. It looks like the dry hop has changed pretty much every year for the past few years. With a beer this big, and a hop aroma this complex, I just need to get in the right ballpark. it'll be pretty hard to distinguish any differences from that point.

Since I am on the east coast I most likely will never taste real younger. So if you get your recipe close that is good enough for me to brew it myself. How consistent are Russian River's beers. From what I know of dogfish head their beers while each batch is similar the beer isn't an exact match to the last one.

crazyirishman34 said:

Since I am on the east coast I most likely will never taste real younger. So if you get your recipe close that is good enough for me to brew it myself. How consistent are Russian River's beers. From what I know of dogfish head their beers while each batch is similar the beer isn't an exact match to the last one.

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Some places in Philly get it.

I think it would run out between the time I hear about it and the time I can get there. It's a 6 hour drive to Philly for me.

Down to 1.020 today. There's still a nice krausen on top, and it seems very active. The sample tasted great. Lots of Simcoe coming through with a punchy clean bitterness. Hopefully the yeast chew off another 12-14 gravity points

do you warm it up at the end of the fermentation?

Subscribed.

Did you use the hop extract vials from northern brewer, you have like 40ml? That would be like 8 of them.

Ya, currently at 68F.

I use hop extract, but not from Northern Brewer. Yup, it would be 8 hop shots. This isn't a cheap beer.

scottland said:

I use hop extract, but not from Northern Brewer. Yup, it would be 8 hop shots. This isn't a cheap beer.

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Nice, I'm really looking forward to your tasting notes.

I think Amarillo is a pretty dramatic hop. I get huge passionfruit and tropical flavors with only modest amounts of dry hops. Don't want to try and make you second guess yourself but every time I use more than an ounce that's all I can taste.

I'm using Williams brewing hops btw.

You can get 10 ml ones here http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/category_s/1851.htm

Do you know the volumetric equivalent of the can of extract on that yakimavalleyhops page?

Hey Scottland, great blog. Thanks for sharing your knowledge through all the hard work, trial and error!!

PseudoChef said:

Do you know the volumetric equivalent of the can of extract on that yakimavalleyhops page?

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It varies slightly. They sell the cans by weight of alpha acids. So there's 100g if Alpha in that can.

It equates to roughly 190-200ml of extract. You won't get every drop in a syringe., so figure 140-160ml. That's what I got. That's about 30 hop shot syringes, which would cost $60.

PS, when I checked the beer this morning, fermentation has slowed way down. There's still a small krausen on top, but it's close to done. We'll know the FG in about 2 days.