AG vs. Extract Brewing

I've been brewing for about 6 or 7 years now, and have always brewed using extracts. I've seen tons of stuff on all grain brewing, but it all seems a little too complicated...but I digress. Anyhow, what are the positives and negatives of all grain brewing as opposed to using extracts? (obviously AG uses what it looks to be a hell of alot more equipment)

Pros for all grain:

More control over recipies
more controll over your beers
cheaper after initial investment
more rewarding final product

cons for all grain:

brewdays slightly longer?
Very addictive



Thats all I got

I agree with Deathweed. As far as more complicated, yes, but only slightly so. Once you do your first, you'll realize it's quite easy.

Not to sound like an idiot, but what exactly do you mean by more control over your recipes and beer?

Pros for All Grain :
1) Freshest beer possible. Age/quality of extract will always play a factor in how the beer turns out.
2) Most control over the beer profile
3) Greater sense of accomplishment once the beer has been made
4) Cheaper (in the long run)

Cons
1) Way more variables to take into account
2) Requires more equipment, greater initial cost
3) More complicated brewing process, takes more time.
4) More break material in wort, possibly requires irish moss

I can't think of any more.

beerme70 said:

Not to sound like an idiot, but what exactly do you mean by more control over your recipes and beer?

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You're not limited by the extract, so you are free to substitute your own grains in the place of others, so you can tweak your favorite recipes based on your own personal preferences. With extract, the bulk of the wort is supplied to you pre-made, so you have little control over the finished product.

AG can use a bunch more grains that are "mash only". Gives you much more flavor variables, which is a great way to tweak any recipe to your tastes.


No twang!!!

beerme70 said:

I've been brewing for about 6 or 7 years now, and have always brewed using extracts. I've seen tons of stuff on all grain brewing, but it all seems a little too complicated...but I digress. Anyhow, what are the positives and negatives of all grain brewing as opposed to using extracts? (obviously AG uses what it looks to be a hell of alot more equipment)

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I had the same feeling, especially since I'm new at this and have only done 3 extract brews. They've all been fantastic, but I wanted to get into the recipe formulation a bit more and try something new. I will say that it doesn't take "alot more equipment", I did mine with just a spare 5g cooler I had laying around, and $20 worth of hardware from the store. I was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't that difficult to go all grain...you just really need to do your homework. My reasons for trying it out:

1. Curiosity
2. More complex recipe formulation
3. I wanted to make beer more like a brewery does
4. Cheaper (debatable, but per recipe it pencils out)

+1 on all of the above not to mention way cheaper beer. figure around $10.00 per 2 cases of beer as opposed to $25-$45 for extract. Granted this is if you buy in bulk but if you are going to brew on a regular basis there is not reason not to buy in bulk.

Also it is not that complicated, watch some of the youtube videos, listen to the all grain podcasts, and read up on all grain brewing via papazians or howtobrew.com and it will make perfect sense.

If you already do full boils, the switch to all grain is only $30 away for a converted cooler/mash tun. And it is really very simple.

Pros:
Just look at the variety of base malts that you can choose from yet alone all of the other grains. The mash temp can change the outcome of the beer (how fermentable the sugars are, how much sweetness or dryness the finished product will be) vs. whatever that particular batch of DME/LME was made at. You get more out of the specialty grains (than you would just steeping them). Its cheaper in the long run. It makes your brewing process a little more involved.

Cons:
It makes your brewing process a little more involved.

DO IT!!! DO IT NOW!! :rockin:

To the OP, you might want to consider doing partial mashes if you want to get an all grain result with your current equipment. That's what I am planning to do in the near future

I just hate doing the conversion calculations. Let's hope Beersmith's coverter is accurate

It's like driving a car with a stick shift, rather than an automatic. There are steps you have to go through on both, but while driving a stick is slightly more involved, you have more control.

Lots have said the beer turns out "better", and for some it seems to be the challenge of getting the best efficiency out of their system, or they simply wanted to brew for cheaper, or do that recipe that they jsut couldn't do with extract.

I've looked into it this winter, and am nearly ready to try it. The cost is not much more, if you do it a certain way, and it's not really that much more work, but just more time.

Read up on the AG forums, and read the information online until you think you understand it. It's not that intimidating once you wrap your mind around the process.

I did AG years ago before kids and on my days "working at home". Now I know I won't get back to AG until I can get a whole day to brew as opposed to a few hours at night. Oh well... partial mashes taste pretty good too!

All Grain is just more fun because it's more challenging - more to think about.

Extract = opening a can and pouring it in. Nothing terribly exciting about that, IMO. You always know what your gravity is going to be, but with AG it's more of a challenge to get there.

TwoHeadsBrewing said:

I will say that it doesn't take "alot more equipment", I did mine with just a spare 5g cooler I had laying around, and $20 worth of hardware from the store.

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That was my experience as well.

Well, it's a little more daunting if you were doing extracts at a 2 gallon boil and want to step up to all grain. It's the challenge of handling full boils (chillers and bigger pots) added with the mash/sparge mystery. Getting the first one done while still on extracts is a great way to inch towards AG. I personally recommend this course of action.

I have done a few extract batches now and have been pricing equipment for my switch to all grain. If I wasn't such a challenge seeker, I'd stick with the extracts. My brews have come out fantastic so far. I've had some people tell me my brews taste better than some of the ones they've had at brew pubs. I've never experienced what some people refer to as "twang" from extracts no matter whether I was using liquids or dries. Cost is a major concern for all grain. This is what I've researched so far as far as things I don't have already.

1) 10 or 15 gallon weldless SS brewpot with ball valve $250-$350
2) Rubbermaid 10 gallon round cooler $55 (direct from rubbermaid.com)
3)Outfitting cooler for mash-tun use $75 (All SS parts)
4) Second rubbermaid 10 gallon or el cheapo 10 gallon hot liquor pot w/ ball valve $55-$200
5) Outdoor Patio Burner $45-$60
6) Small propane tank $???
7) Assorted hoses, mash paddle, etc $???
8) Good quality grain crusher $????

This is just what I have come up with so far.... big bucks to go all grain!

I think AG make a world (or a universe) of difference. Others will tell you that tons of competitions are won by extract brewers and I believe them. However, I have never had an extract beer that really knocked my socks off. Not to say that everyone of my AG's is the best beer in the world, but they are all superior to any extract I have had. That said, everyone's tastes are different, and to some it will make little to no difference in taste.

As far as the process, it takes longer and becomes a hardware addiction, those are the only cons. However, you will have made beer from raw materials. I always felt like I was cooking when I brewed extract; the mash makes a world of mental difference. Plus the impact when you tell people about your brewing is much more impressive than the "I use a malt syrup" explanation.

Go AG, you will not regret it!

p.s.- I am surprised there have not been more pro-extract guys on here, there side of the story is definately worth hearing.

Drews... way unrealistic. It's like saying that your first car HAS to be a Mustang GT500.

40qt aluminum turkey fryer kit, cooler with a stainless braid and an immersion chiller and you're ready to go.

DrewsBrew said:

1) 10 or 15 gallon weldless SS brewpot with ball valve $250-$350
2) Rubbermaid 10 gallon round cooler $55 (direct from rubbermaid.com)
3)Outfitting cooler for mash-tun use $75 (All SS parts)
4) Second rubbermaid 10 gallon or el cheapo 10 gallon hot liquor pot w/ ball valve $55-$200
5) Outdoor Patio Burner $45-$60
6) Small propane tank $???
7) Assorted hoses, mash paddle, etc $???
8) Good quality grain crusher $????

This is just what I have come up with so far.... big bucks to go all grain!

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I have to disagree. The keg is cheap to find if your dedicated to finding it. I got one for free and $70 for another.

If you look at greatbargins.net, local supply or McMaster-Carr, you'll find the fittings for MUCH cheaper. Throw a step-bit from Harbor Freight, and your revised estimate is about $100 I bet.

You'll need to cut the top off too, but any welder'll do that for a six pack considering how little time it'd take...

The cooler can be found much cheaper at home depot or lowes. I got a 10 gal from there for only $25 if I remember right. Certainly less than $35.

If you are doing batch sparging, which you prolly are at first, then you just need a SS braid conversion, which is less than $15 all told.

You don't need a second tank at all! That's why you have an insulated cooler in the first place. Sure, you can if you want, but it is not needed.

A grain crusher is not needed at all either! You can get them pre-crushed just fine from every HBS.

$18 for propane, unless you need a tank, then $38.

Keep an eye on cragislist or other sites for a sale on propane burners. I suspect you'll find them cheaper.

What you will also need is a wort chiller and good thermometer. Get some copper tubing and make either a CFC or IC. Bobby's Tutorials will make it easy.

A thermometer is crucial for your mashing and sparge temperatures. McMaster-Carr has a probe one that is water-proof and recalibratable for $23.

1)15.5 gallon Keg weldless SS brewpot with ball valve $100
2) Rubbermaid 10 gallon round cooler $35
3) Outfitting cooler for mash-tun use $15 or $30 if you want all SS.
4) Outdoor Patio Burner $45-$60
5) Small propane tank $18-$40
6) Assorted hoses, mash paddle $not much. You can use a big ol' spoon at first if you want. The hoses are cheap along with the fittings.
7)Wort Chiller $30 (you'll make two so give one to a friend or sell it)
8)Temperature probe $23

I see it at about $300, give or take. If you are willing to do the work and read a lot of stuff, you can do AG on the cheap. And that's assuming you don't have a cooler or propane burner already.

The others have covered it pretty well, I think. AG gives you more options for recipe formulation compared to extract, but it is also more time consuming and there are more things that can go wrong.

Overall, though, AG is not that difficult. With 6-7 years of brewing experience already under your belt you should be able to get your system dialed in within a few brews.

I'm mostly an AG brewer, but I do extract batches from time to time. I make good beer with them.

You can start AG with minimal investment. You don't need a 3-keggle sculpture to get started. A 40-qt turkey frier will get you going, but if you can afford to go bigger then by all means do so. You will definately need an immersion chiller, though, and an MLT, of course.

This is the setup I started with, and I'm still using all of it. All I've added is a bigger boil pot (15-gal).

Pros........

Bobby_M said:

Drews... way unrealistic. It's like saying that your first car HAS to be a Mustang GT500.

40qt aluminum turkey fryer kit, cooler with a stainless braid and an immersion chiller and you're ready to go.

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Couldn't agree more. I got my turkey fryer kit on sale for $25 and had a spare cooler (only 5 gal but its a start) just needed the SS braid and fittings. It only has to be as expensive as you want it to be...

Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong... it GETS expensive. You start off like:


and end up like:

Flames around plastic shelving. Now that's scary :cross:

It wasn't until I did AG that I tasted one of my beers and could honestly say that it tasted just as good as a micro. There just seems to be a certain 'fullness' of body and taste that I never got with extract. This seems to really be the case with malty brews. This is not to say that I haven't had extract beers that taste better than AG-it's just a general trend.

In a nutshell though:
Pros: Cheaper cost per batch, Better overall quality (IMO), More control, More fun, Closer to the commercial process, Makes for an entire afternoon of brewing and drinking

Cons: Initial $ investment, More things to screw up, Can't do a batch on a weeknight, You will only want to do AG from then on

Also, the procedures needed to do AG do not require all the neurotic sanitation that you should be used to already...the ateps that are AG-specific are all pre-boil, so it's not like you need 2X as much sanitation.

Bobby_M said:

Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong... it GETS expensive. You start off like:...
and end up like:
...

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Or in my case you start off like this:

and end up like this:

The equipment may be minimal, but the space to brew AG can be very expensive as I don't know of many places that sell garages with the land to put them for cheap.

If you don't have a boil keg, look on your local craigslist or place an add looking for one, I got my for $35. And you don't need to drill it and add a ball valve, you can just syphon out of it (or use an aquarium pump like I do). You will need a chiller but some have done so without it.

One other option that hasn't been brought up is the partial mash, all you need is a 2-3 gallon cooler and a grain bag (or you can set up a valve and stainless hose) https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=19413&page=2 ... that was my initial intent but it was only like $8 more for a 5 gallon cooler so I just bought the bigger cooler and have never looked back doing all grain.

carl spakler said:

The equipment may be minimal, but the space to brew AG can be very expensive as I don't know of many places that sell garages with the land to put them for cheap.

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Well, again, it depends on what you can get away with! Here's my "sculpture" and brewing area:



I mean, I'd love to have a three tier sculpture and a place to use it! But I don't. I have a huge yard, but it's COLD here and I'm too much of a wimp to even try it. Really, I could do extract, partial mash, or all-grain right here in my kitchen!

Notice the classy pink nail polish marks at each gallon level!

yeah I'll have to take a pic of my brew day. It's not nearly as expensive or as much shinny metal as these pics, but it works the same... assuming batch sparge. I think I spent a little over $100 to go from extract to AG.

Find someone close by that brews AG and "help" him out one day. This will work wonders on your concerns and you will be brewing AG in no time.

My old LHBS (before I moved to the desert) used to have brew lessons once a month and taught people how to brew AG with cheap and sometimes homemade equipment. That de-mystified it for me and got me building and brewing my own for REAL.

it wasnt that expensive to go from extract to All grain in my case. 2 10 gallon Gott coolers 32 bucks one keggle 130 . Already had the turkey fryer and my sculpture I already had.....

I for one am currently in the process of going AG, it's a slow process for me due to $ and wanting more experience as a brewer. I detest bottling (rather the cleaning of bottles) so I'm trying to save coin up for a kegging setup (lucky me already has the spare fridge). I've got my MLT built, am buying kits and adding grains too them doing partial mash's. I need a keggle, wort chiller (homemade, dang copper prices), and burner to go AG. Soon.... soon!

The biggest pros I see are:
1 eliminating the extract twang
2 MUCH improved basemalt control and flavor (biggest impact I hypothesize)
3 cost savings
4 more involved/scientific process
5 gets me out of the house/out of work/out of the way for longer periods of time
6 control over mash temps etc. gives the brewer extra input on the final product.

Cons
Cost to get started
intimidating process to start on your own (best advice find an AG friend/watch you tube vids)

Schlante,
Phillip

Forgive any typos as I'm having a reall off day here. Migrane this morning and insomnia tonight...

I'm a new brewer with only 3 extract brews under my belt and only 1 all grain brew. Here is what I've learned.

You have infinitely more control with all grain, but that may not be good thing if you're inexperienced. Sometime more control = more @$#% that goes wrong. The point is, extract is much harder to screw up, and much easier to do indoors. Also brewing all grain almost has to be done on a turkey freyer outdoors--I'm not putting that much weight on my nice stove, and while my electric stove fries burgers, and makes spaghetti I sure don't trust my stove for a decent boil on 8 gallons.

Also, I have to wonder if that extract twang thing doesn't go away with time. I gave a few of my second all extract brew to a friend at work. It had just spend about two weeks in the bottles and he reported that it wasn't bad. Then about 2 months later, he had the last one that he'd been saving. He tells me that last one was REAL good. Makes me think that extract twang is a sugary taste that eventially ferments out...

That said, I feel that going to all grain batches is sort of a natural progression from your very first extract brew. It's sort like study mathematics in high school then going to college and declaring a math minor or major. Some will do it, most won't.

It's more expensive to go all grain, but with a little handiwork, you can offset that. I doubt you have choice on getting an outdoor burner. Cooler conversions are cheap, and you don't need a pot with a spigot. If you don't like to drill into a pot to install a spigot, do what I did and buy some silicone tubing (not vinyl!) and siphon to you're mash tun--just dip it into the hot wort and hold your thumb over the tubing until quickli slipping it over the cooler inlet tube. The grain crusher is an investment I chose to make, but by LHBS will crush for me. I still think going AG is worth it, but I'm thinking one should not expect a usable batch the first 1 or 2 brews...

PS: You do need a wort chiller, but that's nice to have anyway. I made mine with about 25' of 3/8" copper tubing and some compression fittings from local hardware store. Not much to it. Was lucky enough to have my copper tubing laying in the garage from previous job, further cutting the costs.

OOO,

How about this? No extract twang!!! And frankly, if you can make iced tea, you can do a decoction mash. It's exactly the same concept. I see so many people who are intimidated by brewing grain. Yet these are the same people who eat oat meal/malt-o-meal/grits for breakfast and drink tea. If you can make any of the above, you can do a decoction mash.

HTH,

M.

chemist308 said:

I still think going AG is worth it, but I'm thinking one should not expect a usable batch the first 1 or 2 brews...

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While IMO most of your post was accurate, I totally disagree here. My first AG weekend was a clover honey nut brown ale and a homemade farmhouse ale recipe (attempt at WI New Glarus "Spotted Cow"). Both 10g batches turned out to be absolutely amazing. Now I have 4 Cornies full of AG premium homebrew at $0.15 per 12 oz.

In my opinion, the key is DO YOUR HOMEWORK before attempting an AG brew day. You are sitting upon a wealth of knowledge here at HBT. Take advantage of other's experience. Check out Yuri's AG videos(don't feel intimidated by his technical jargin the first time around /poke) as well as the numerous other HBT/youtube AG videos. I personally spent over two months of daily forum-browsing research before I started chipping away at my desired equipment and brewday routine.

Look for good deals on equipment over time, don't just sit down and buy everything at once. I suspect most of the guys around here pieced their rigs together over the length of their brewing careers as they stumbled across deals. I personally love DIY projects, and was able to save some serious $$ by making all of my own equipment from scratch. Check out the How-To project threads. Keep an eye on www.morebeer.com for their Deal of the Day. If you're lucky like me you'll snag a $230 15gal SS brewpot for $100 (free shipping).

As long as you do a mental run-through of the brew schedule and make sure you have the necessary equipment cleaned and ready - you should be fine. The depth and multi-layered flavors created from mixing your own malts is VERY rewarding and worth the effort. All in all going AG was extremely exciting for me, friends and family were a little overwhelmed by my nonstop talking about the upcoming brewday. The feeling of accomplishment is easily 100 fold over extract brewing for me.

Like I said, do your research. If you get the AG bug... you'll know. It will start to consume you like it has most of the AG brewers around. Brewing is one of those hobbies that can be as complex or as simple as you make it. Do what feels right and Don't be afraid to try new things!! That's what this is all about

I hope this helps. Cheers!

If you do your research and read everything you can, any fears about AG brewing being difficult go out the window. I spent about three weeks reading tons of information and listening to brewing podcasts, and in the end I decided to jump past extract and go straight for AG. I did two 1gal batches to start off with, which turned out great (though the 2nd batch didn't have as much body as I wanted), then jumped up to a 5gal setup. I've done a batch a week since I started 3 1/2 weeks ago (2x1gal, 2x5gal)... now I think I'll have to let my drinking catch up to my brewing
I love the process and feel pride in knowing that I'm brewing the very best beer I can, right from scratch.

PS. You can brew an AG batch on a weeknight... though you need to prep a bit before hand. Today I started at 5 and finished everything at 9:30 tonight.

I want to do AG so freaking bad, but I live in a apartment, so I'm stuck with doing extract.