Steeping question

Hey guys, I'm about to brew extract beer #2 this weekend and I had a question regarding steeping specialty grains. For my first brew I did a partial boil because I was using a 3 gal enamel pot we had. I dug out my turkey frier and cleaned that up really nice and now I'll be able to do a full boil. My question is, should I steep in the full volume of water or do the steeping in a smaller pot and then add the water in to the big pot? Unless there's a specific reason it needs to steep in 3-4 quarts as I usually see recommended it seems like it would be easier to just have one pot going.

I used to steep my grains in about 3 gal of water, but my last batch I steeped in a smaller amount on the stove and then added the grain tea to the water in the kettle. I decided to do this after reading several steeping threads stating that it was better to steep grains with 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain.

Haven't tried this brew yet so I can't tell you how it has changed since my first ones.

I can't see any good reason not to steep in the full volume.

Use about 1 - 1.5 qts of water per pound of grain for steeping then add it to the rest of your water. Of course you could steep in your kettle then add the rest of your water when you are done steeping.

I believe that steeping in larger volumes tends to extract tannins from the grain lending an astringent taste to your beer.

hogwash said:

Use about 1 - 1.5 qts of water per pound of grain for steeping then add it to the rest of your water. Of course you could steep in your kettle then add the rest of your water when you are done steeping.

I believe that steeping in larger volumes tends to extract tannins from the grain lending an astringent taste to your beer.

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Not even close to being true. There is a lot of BS on the subject of tannins, mostly rumor. If you read a text by experts you'll find that tannins have nothing to do with volumes. Only pH and temp effect tannin production.

I'm a BIAB'er, but I've never read anywhere on here (or Palmer, etc) where someone has altered a mash or steep water volume to compensate for pH, only adding buffers.

Strangelove said:

If you read a text by experts you'll find that tannins have nothing to do with volumes. Only pH and temp effect tannin production.

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I've been reading so many things that say that tannin production vs volume thing but my gut has been telling me that it is not true.. glad to hear someone say it!

Strangelove said:

Not even close to being true. There is a lot of BS on the subject of tannins, mostly rumor. If you read a text by experts you'll find that tannins have nothing to do with volumes. Only pH and temp effect tannin production.

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Okay, my bad, should have researched a bit before i posted. I could swear that i read that somewhere though. But in referring to palmer's how to brew just now, i see in his extract w/ specialty grains sample recipe that they steep the 1.25# grain in 3 gallons of water. My apologies to the op, sounds like there'd be no problem steeping in the full amount.

From Palmer:

After determining your residual alkalinity and probable pH, the chart offers you two options:
a) You can plan to brew a style of beer that approximately matches the color guide above your RA, or
b) You can estimate an amount of calcium or bicarbonate to add to the brewing water to hit a targeted residual alkalinity, one that is more appropriate to the color of the style you want to brew.

I'm sure that volumes will effect pH to a degree, but I suspect it won't be much compared to buffering.

IF YOU USE YOUR TURKEY FRYER, & it's aluminum, you need to condition first by boiling water in it until the inside takes on a gray patina. Otherwise aluminum will come out into your beer & that won't be good for your brain unless you like drooling & crapping yourself. No steel spoons with aluminum either

Strangelove said:

From Palmer:

After determining your residual alkalinity and probable pH, the chart offers you two options:
a) You can plan to brew a style of beer that approximately matches the color guide above your RA, or
b) You can estimate an amount of calcium or bicarbonate to add to the brewing water to hit a targeted residual alkalinity, one that is more appropriate to the color of the style you want to brew.

I'm sure that volumes will effect pH to a degree, but I suspect it won't be much compared to buffering.

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Buffering has more to do with the acidity/alkalinity of the water & it's ability to buffer properly in regard to the mash. But that also seems to be able to change in regard to volume to whatever extent. But I do agree that the acid/alakaline aspects with regard to buffering is the greater of the 2.

I generally stick to the mashing ratios even when steeping that way I know my pH is in the ballpark. Volume would only be an issue when the grain quantity is not suffcient to buffer the water volume. I suppose you could only figure this out using a pH meter and experiment.

Ok, so basically the consensus seems to be it shouldn't effect it to a noticible degree, but it seems to be a good practice to go with a smaller volume, so I'll just go that route. It'll be easier to hold a steady temp for steeping with a smaller volume of water anyway.

doktorhook said:

IF YOU USE YOUR TURKEY FRYER, & it's aluminum, you need to condition first by boiling water in it until the inside takes on a gray patina. Otherwise aluminum will come out into your beer & that won't be good for your brain unless you like drooling & crapping yourself. No steel spoons with aluminum either

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Filled it full of 6.5 gallons the other night and boiled for close to an hour to build up the oxidation layer. Hadn't heard about not using a steel spoon, is that to avoid scratching the aluminum? Do they even make
aluminum long handled spoons?

ktblunden said:

My question is, should I steep in the full volume of water or do the steeping in a smaller pot and then add the water in to the big pot? Unless there's a specific reason it needs to steep in 3-4 quarts as I usually see recommended it seems like it would be easier to just have one pot going.

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This thread wandered pretty far afield.

On the top 10 list of how to make your second extract better, full vs partial steep is probably #12, but never hurts follow the directions.

Strangelove said:

Not even close to being true. There is a lot of BS on the subject of tannins, mostly rumor. If you read a text by experts you'll find that tannins have nothing to do with volumes. Only pH and temp effect tannin production.

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The problem with what you're saying is that the relatively small amount of specialty grains used in an extract with specialty grain recipe is not sufficient to drive the pH of a full volume boil down enough to avoid the extraction of excessive tannins. So, in effect, volume has everything to do with tannin extraction with regard to pH.

I've posted an article from BYO magazine here before that was written by Chris Colby a few years ago. It goes into detail about avoiding a dilute steep of specialty grains.

Color me corrected. The article seems to say that, if you wanted to use one pot, you'd use a bit of your LME/DME before steeping to lower the pH and avoid excess tannins.

Strangelove said:

Color me corrected. The article seems to say that, if you wanted to use one pot, you'd use a bit of your LME/DME before steeping to lower the pH and avoid excess tannins.

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That would certainly work. I just find it easier to do the steeping of the specialty grains in a small pot on the stove while my full volume is heating up outside in my main boil kettle.

I steep in 1-3qts/lb specialty grain for 20-25 minutes at ~160˚F. Then I put the grain bags in strainer over my main boil kettle and add 2qts/lb of the water that's been heating in the main boil kettle to the grain "tea" that I just steeped. I then take that and pour all of it over the grain bags to rinse as much of the flavors and colors out of it as possible. Then I proceed with the rest of the process as normal from there.

An interesting FYI: Midwestern's extract kits mention a minimum steep volume (in the case of Irish Red, 2.5 gallons for 1# of specialty grains), Northern Brewer specifies 2.5 gallons for 1# of specialty in one of their American ales. Brewer's Best Red Ale instructions call for 2.5 gallons for 9oz of specialty grains.

Here: http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter13-3.html
Palmer is steeping 1.25 pounds of specialty in 3 gallons.

I guess they've not read the article? Or perhaps when Colby states, "experience has shown...1-3 quarts per pound.." he's referring to his experience alone? Maybe there just isn't a consensus on this one.

Not to be overly argumentative, but in rereading the thread doktorhook implies that aluminum cookware can cause brain damage. I believe that this refers to a theory on Alzheimer's that was in the press a decade ago. This has been soundly disproved. Aluminum may effect the taste of the beer, but it's perfectly safe for cooking, patina or no.

Strangelove said:

I guess they've not read the article? Or perhaps when Colby states, "experience has shown...1-3 quarts per pound.." he's referring to his experience alone? Maybe there just isn't a consensus on this one.

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I'm of the opinion that a lot of people have never seen that article. Chris Colby actually emailed the article to me personally when I saw it mentioned on the MoreBeer forum years ago. The article was not in the BYO archives so I asked if he would send it to me and he did.

After years of reading posts by Chris Colby, I've come to respect him as a brewer quite a bit. The dilute steep was something that concerned him and his experience told him to do some research and write an article about it. I had been getting some "twang", for a lack of a better term, in all of my first full volume boil batches that I could not explain. Once I eliminated the dilute steep from my process the "twang" was gone and has never returned, so I chalked it up to astringency from the dilute steep extracting excess tannins. Tannins are found in every beer, there is no way to avoid it. It's when it's excessive that it reaches the taste threshold.

Wow, my first thread and I've incited a big debate. Ok, so I'm just going to go with 2 qts/lb to steep and add it into the big pot.

Not really a debate. More of a very informative discussion. I've found that homebrewers are some of the most brilliant, creative and out of the box type thinkers I've ever had the pleasure to be associated with.

I never dismiss out of hand anything a fellow homebrewer has to say based on his experience. This hobby is all about refining and perfecting the process in an attempt to make each batch better than the last. I lift my glass to all of you!

From Brewing Classic Styles:

For best flavor results, the ratio of steeping water to grain should be less than 1 gallon per pound. This will help keep the ph below 6 and minimize tannin extraction in alkaline water.

This is what i was thinking of in my initial post. The key word here being alkaline. So i think what they are saying is it's safest, provided you aren't sure of your water profile, to steep in lower amounts.

One last word. I listened to a "Brew Strong" podcast all about tannins by Jamil and Palmer a month or two ago ( http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/798 ). The main thing I took away (there was a LOT of information) is that tannins are necessary for beer. They provide a lot of taste and color. The key is to avoid "excess tannins". How to define that is tough and a matter of taste, I'll bet. I really enjoy beer, we all do, but I'm not really a "beeroisseur". I'm not sure that I'd be able to taste the amount of excess tannins made by 9 ounces of grain in a 5 gallon batch by having extra water or the steeping temp off by a couple of degrees. I'll keep practicing, though.