Dark Red & Hoppy?

Hi, I'm looking for some feedback on this recipe, I may replace the Willamette for Simcoe or Amarillo if I can get them but feedback on how it is currently would be appreciated? Am I just wasting hops at this level? (Sorry about the odd measurements, I build it in Metric but figured I'd get more feedback if it's imperial)
Thanks in advance.

Brew Method: BIAB
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Efficiency: 60% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.090
Final Gravity: 1.025
ABV (standard): 8.51%
IBU (rager): 129.98
SRM (morey): 29.33

FERMENTABLES:
11 lb - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (54.1%)
2.2 lb - German - CaraRed (10.8%)
1.1 lb - United Kingdom - Wheat (5.4%)
0.55 lb - German - De-Husked Caraf I (2.7%)
4.4 lb - German - Munich Dark (21.6%)
1.1 lb - Belgian - Aromatic (5.4%)

HOPS:
0.9 oz - Centennial for 20 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 13.45)
0.9 oz - NZ Cascade for 20 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 12.37)
0.9 oz - NZ Chinook for 20 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 12.91)
0.9 oz - Willamette for 20 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 4.5, IBU: 6.05)
0.9 oz - Centennial for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 10.56)
0.9 oz - NZ Cascade for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 9.72)
0.9 oz - NZ Chinook for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 10.14)
0.9 oz - Willamette for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 4.5, IBU: 4.75)
0.9 oz - Centennial for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 8.6)
0.9 oz - NZ Cascade for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 7.91)
0.9 oz - NZ Chinook for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 8.26)
0.9 oz - Willamette for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 4.5, IBU: 3.87)
0.9 oz - Centennial for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 6.42)
0.9 oz - NZ Cascade for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 5.91)
0.9 oz - NZ Chinook for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 6.16)
0.9 oz - Willamette for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 4.5, IBU: 2.89)
0.9 oz - Centennial for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10)
0.9 oz - NZ Cascade for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2)
0.9 oz - NZ Chinook for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6)
0.9 oz - Willamette for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 4.5)
0.9 oz - Centennial for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 10)
0.9 oz - NZ Cascade for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 9.2)
0.9 oz - NZ Chinook for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 9.6)
0.9 oz - Willamette for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 4.5)

YEAST:
Danstar - American West Coast Yeast BRY-97
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 72%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 62 - 75 F
Additional Yeast: another half packet of BRY-97

NOTES:
Add the Boil time zero hops at flame out then the Aroma time zeros once temp below 60degrees

Sweet Jesus, you're not messing around! That is a heck of a hops schedule! I'll refrain from giving any advise here since I've never attempted anything close, and am not familiar with CaraRed. Subscribed, to see what others may have to say. Good luck!

That seems like waaaaay to many hop additions, and I love an overly hopped beer. Also at that SRM you are going to end up with a brown color a bit past red. I just brewed a hoppy amber ale and only used 4 oz of hops in the boil and I am currently dry hopping with another 2 oz. my SRM was at 17 and it was bordering on coppery brown.

Personally I would choose a bittering hop with a higher AA% for the start of the boil and maybe 2 flavor hops to add later on in the boil. I feel like the flavors might be muddled here with so many different hops. 6-8 oz would be the most I would put in during the boil and that's still pretty high.

As for the malts, I would cut out a portion of the darker ones. Mess around with beersmith until you get around 16-17 SRM. I used 1 lb Carared, 8 oz Melanoidin, and 2 oz chocolate malt to gety color instead of the carafa. It's totally up to you tho. But by all means if you wanna experiment and make an insanely hoppy darker beer go right ahead. I'd be quite interested to see how your recipe turns out.

Thanks 501irishred, I'm do love pushing the boundaries

I will have to stick to Willamette as my LHBS just said they don't have/can't get at the moment, some Simcoe or Amarillo.

CaraRed is just another version of Crystal 20 made by Weyermann. It's fairly light, and despite the name, you're not going to get a red color from using it... especially the typical hoppy AIIPA amounts of crystal we usually see at 0-5% in recipes.

10.8% crystal for a hoppy red colored IIPA is kind of overkill in terms of Sweetness, and this will limit your hop focus by more than double it's potential. It's doable though if you're going more for a sweet American Red Ale. The dark munich is also overkill. Use light munich at 10% or less. 2% chocolate malt could also be used if you want the color contribution, but without the flavor contribution or acrid bitterness of a few other black malts. Ditch the aromatic malt, and cut some of your Maris Otter with American 2-row. You might need a longer 90 minute mash otherwise considering the reduced diastatic power of all of your character malts. Mashing low (148-150 F) will help you with fermentability and lower that FG.

You're going to want to get that attenuation way up so it finishes below 1.015 FG. Keep the ferm. temp in the low to mid 60s. Lastly, the Willamette seems a little out of place here. I think it'll be fine with the three C hops... or with Simcoe/Amarillo like you said. And the entire hop schedule is funky... I don't like what you're doing with no bittering addition and everything at 20-15-10-5-0 with no dryhop... certainly not for an IIPA.

Bassaholic said:

That seems like waaaaay to many hop additions, and I love an overly hopped beer. Also at that SRM you are going to end up with a brown color a bit past red. I just brewed a hoppy amber ale and only used 4 oz of hops in the boil and I am currently dry hopping with another 2 oz. my SRM was at 17 and it was bordering on coppery brown.

Personally I would choose a bittering hop with a higher AA% for the start of the boil and maybe 2 flavor hops to add later on in the boil. I feel like the flavors might be muddled here with so many different hops. 6-8 oz would be the most I would put in during the boil and that's still pretty high.

As for the malts, I would cut out a portion of the darker ones. Mess around with beersmith until you get around 16-17 SRM. I used 1 lb Carared, 8 oz Melanoidin, and 2 oz chocolate malt to gety color instead of the carafa. It's totally up to you tho. But by all means if you wanna experiment and make an insanely hoppy darker beer go right ahead. I'd be quite interested to see how your recipe turns out.

Click to expand...

I want to try only late hop additions as I've been doing a bit of reading and it apparently results in a smoother bitterness, which is probably a good thing with this many hops. I could drop the entire Willamette hopping though, that brings the ibu down to 110 and as you say, would reduce the risk of it being muddled.

Just did a little playing with the grain bill, I've never used Melanodin malt before so I'll have a little read. I'm not too concerned about the colour, I just want a decent malt flavour to try and balance the hops

bobbrews said:

CaraRed is just another version of Crystal 20 made by Weyermann. It's fairly light, and despite the name, you're not going to get a red color from using it... especially the typical hoppy AIIPA amounts of crystal we usually see at 0-5% in recipes.

10.8% crystal for a hoppy red colored IIPA is kind of overkill in terms of Sweetness, and this will limit your hop focus by more than double it's potential. It's doable though if you're going more for a sweet American Red Ale. The dark munich is also overkill. Use light munich at 10% or less. 2% chocolate malt could also be used if you want the color contribution, but without the flavor contribution or acrid bitterness of a few other black malts. Ditch the aromatic malt, and cut some of your Maris Otter with American 2-row. You might need a longer 90 minute mash otherwise considering the reduced diastatic power of all of your character malts. Mashing low (148-150 F) will help you with fermentability and lower that FG.

You're going to want to get that attenuation way up so it finishes below 1.015 FG. Keep the ferm. temp in the low to mid 60s. Lastly, the Willamette seems a little out of place here. I think it'll be fine with the three C hops. And the schedule is funky... I don't like what you're doing with no bittering addition and everything at 20-15-10-5-0 with no dryhop.

Click to expand...

Hi Bobbrews,
I think I'll definitely review my grain bill and use some of your suggestions.
Can I ask why the cut of Maris for 2-Row?

I think I will drop the Willamette. so now I'm down to only 450grams of hops :fro:
As I said in the previous post I'm keen to try only late hop additions. (and no dry hop)

The grain bill could go either way. It really depends on wether you want a dryer beer with more hop characters or a slightly sweeter beer to balance out the hoppiness a bit. Cut out some of the caramel malts to reduce the sweetness or leave them if you like. I personally like the balanced versions better.

I feel that the 20 and 15 minute additions will give you more bitterness than flavor. I think you might save a bit of money on hops if you just use an oz or two of neutral bittering hop, such as magnum or warrior, at 60 min and then maybe do 3 oz of the c's at 10 and 0. This should give you plenty of the hoppy flavor and you can still taste the results of the late hop additions.

If money's not an issue, then you could always stick to your hop schedule. It would be nice to see the outcome. Keep us posted on your decisions/outcome.

What about the maris for 2-row change? Why did you suggest that? I've used Maris in 75%+ of my all grains and love it but keen to know your reason for swapping it?

Oh and I pretty much always 90 min mash.

I'm not sure why exactly bobbrews suggested that you replace some MO with 2 row. I'm assuming its because MO is slightly darker and tends to be a bit sweeter, but again it depends on the type of beer you want to brew. If you want more of an IIPA then go with the two row, or keep the full amount of MO for a hoppy amber ale.

So here's my adjusted recipe


Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: Specialty Beer
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 19 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 28.5 liters
Efficiency: 60% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.096
Final Gravity: 1.027
ABV (standard): 9.04%
IBU (rager): 107.8
SRM (morey): 26.25

FERMENTABLES:
6.5 kg - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (66.7%)
1 kg - German - CaraRed (10.3%)
0.5 kg - United Kingdom - Wheat (5.1%)
0.25 kg - German - De-Husked Caraf I (2.6%)
1 kg - German - Munich Light (10.3%)
0.5 kg - German - Melanoidin (5.1%)

HOPS:
25 g - Centennial for 20 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 12.9)
25 g - NZ Cascade for 20 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 11.86)
25 g - NZ Chinook for 20 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 12.38)
25 g - Centennial for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 10.13)
25 g - NZ Cascade for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 9.32)
25 g - NZ Chinook for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 9.72)
25 g - Centennial for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 8.25)
25 g - NZ Cascade for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 7.59)
25 g - NZ Chinook for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 7.92)
25 g - Centennial for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 6.16)
25 g - NZ Cascade for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 5.66)
25 g - NZ Chinook for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 5.91)
25 g - Centennial for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10)
25 g - NZ Cascade for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2)
25 g - NZ Chinook for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6)
25 g - Centennial for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 10)
25 g - NZ Cascade for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 9.2)
25 g - NZ Chinook for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 9.6)

YEAST:
Danstar - American West Coast Yeast BRY-97
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 72%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 16.67 - 23.89 C
Additional Yeast: another half packet of BRY-97

NOTES:
Add the Boil time zero hops at flame out then the Aroma time zeros once temp below 60degrees

Oh and I have to brew this by wednesday if I'm going to use the half packet of BRY97 that I have in the fridge (says use within 3 days of opening on the pack) otherwise I might just go with 2 packs of nottingham as I've used that plenty of times before and it's never failed me.

Bassaholic said:

I'm not sure why exactly bobbrews suggested that you replace some MO with 2 row. I'm assuming its because MO is slightly darker and tends to be a bit sweeter, but again it depends on the type of beer you want to brew. If you want more of an IIPA then go with the two row, or keep the full amount of MO for a hoppy amber ale.

Click to expand...

Using MO is not a pre-requisite for a hoppy Amber ale. Just look at Nugget Nectar.

MO will give you a fuller feel and a toastier, sometimes sweeter flavor. With your current grist, you have more than enough malt character for a hoppy ale. It would not be silly to cut some of it and simplify it more for the sake of having better hop focus. For dry hoppy ales, there's nothing better than a clean base of American 2-row. But in his case, he's brewing something a little darker and could benefit from some added character grains to cut the American 2-row.

Still too much CaraRed (Crystal 20) in there for a dry hoppy red ale. Is that the type of beer you wanted, or rather did you want more of a sweet, subdued hoppy amber? I would also work on hop schedule revamping and lower that OG/FG a ways... otherwise you're going to have more of a sweet barleywine.

How much 2row to maris would you suggest, 50/50?
Or alternatively, would a lower temperature mash correct the sweetness a bit.
I'll drop a bit of carared

I'm not looking for completely dry, i do like a bit of sweetness but in saying that even I think the FG is too high its just what brewersfriend spit out. I have had several beers go lower than the original calculated FG so I don't normally pay a lot of attention to it.

A bit of sweetness for the style would be 1.015-16 FG. I would suggest using more American 2-row than Maris Otter. Yes, a lower mash temp and simple sugar additions will help with dryness. As will pitching enough healthy yeast cells, proper 02 levels before pitching, etc. etc.

Well, this complicates things, I don't have access to US malts. I can get UK 2-Row, NZ Pale Malt or Weyermann Pale Ale.

I'm not going to get this brewed by wednesday so I'm going to ditch the 1.5 packs of BRY-97 in favour of 2 fresh packs of Nottingham

NZ pale malt would be interesting.

NZ Pale it is then (and its a $1 cheaper per kilo, more money for hops )

I've dialed up the attenuation to 80% but another beer I've got in the fermenter at the moment that had 2 packs of Nottingham has already hit 82% so it's possible it'll go a little drier. Dialed down the Carared and Carafa

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: Specialty Beer
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 19 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 28.5 liters
Efficiency: 60% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.095
Final Gravity: 1.019
ABV (standard): 9.97%
IBU (rager): 108.04
SRM (morey): 17.36

FERMENTABLES:
2 kg - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (20.8%)
1 kg - German - Munich Light (10.4%)
0.5 kg - German - CaraRed (5.2%)
0.5 kg - German - Melanoidin (5.2%)
0.5 kg - United Kingdom - Wheat (5.2%)
0.1 kg - German - De-Husked Caraf I (1%)
5 kg - NZ Pale Malt (Malteurop) (52.1%)

HOPS:
25 g - Centennial for 20 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 12.93)
25 g - NZ Cascade for 20 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 11.89)
25 g - NZ Chinook for 20 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 12.41)
25 g - Centennial for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 10.15)
25 g - NZ Cascade for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 9.34)
25 g - NZ Chinook for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 9.75)
25 g - Centennial for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 8.27)
25 g - NZ Cascade for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 7.61)
25 g - NZ Chinook for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 7.94)
25 g - Centennial for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 6.17)
25 g - NZ Cascade for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2, IBU: 5.68)
25 g - NZ Chinook for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6, IBU: 5.92)
25 g - Centennial for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10)
25 g - NZ Cascade for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.2)
25 g - NZ Chinook for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 9.6)
25 g - Centennial for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 10)
25 g - NZ Cascade for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 9.2)
25 g - NZ Chinook for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 9.6)

YEAST:
Danstar - Nottingham Ale Yeast
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (custom): 80%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 13.89 - 21.11 C
Additional Yeast: 2 Packs of Nottingham

NOTES:
Add the Boil time zero hops at flame out then the Aroma time zeros once temp below 60degrees

I just had a thought, when I transfer this from primary to secondary I might run some off into a separate smaller secondary and dry hop it, just to see the difference.

kiwirevo said:

I just had a thought, when I transfer this from primary to secondary I might run some off into a separate smaller secondary and dry hop it, just to see the difference.

Click to expand...

Good plan. Hey I see your a fellow kiwi. (I figured that out) try forum.realbeer.co.nz for some kiwi input if u need it. Brewshop.co.nz have simcoe if you need it by the way they have citra and mosaic too .

Cheers Crusader, thanks for the links. I've already ordered all my ingredients for this time but next time I want something my LHBS doesn't have I'll check out brewshop.

Well I just transferred to secondary so did a SG measurement and tasted it. 11% abv. Colour is golden brown. Aroma is faint with no carbonation but seems balanced between malt and the hops. Flavour is great, it's bitter but not harsh and some malt sweetness, it's got a dry long finish. For 11% it's supremely drinkable, hopefully some aroma comes through when it's carbed

kiwirevo said:

Well I just transferred to secondary so did a SG measurement and tasted it. 11% abv. Colour is golden brown. Aroma is faint with no carbonation but seems balanced between malt and the hops. Flavour is great, it's bitter but not harsh and some malt sweetness, it's got a dry long finish. For 11% it's supremely drinkable, hopefully some aroma comes through when it's carbed

Click to expand...

That's a strong beer bro!

crusader1612 said:

That's a strong beer bro!

Click to expand...

That's how I like it.

I try not to do super ABV beer anymore. My buddies apparently aren't the brightest in the world, and I got tiered of driving them home!

501irishred said:

I try not to do super ABV beer anymore. My buddies apparently aren't the brightest in the world, and I got tiered of driving them home!

Click to expand...

Fair enough, that's one good thing about having a spare room.
I do have plenty of 5%ers as well

kiwirevo said:

Fair enough, that's one good thing about having a spare room.
I do have plenty of 5%ers as well

Click to expand...

If you need a taste tester I'm happy to help. Haha. Pictures would be good when it's done

Oh and there's a small group of us on a different thread called New Zealand brewers. Feel free to join us

I'll see how it goes, definitely take some pics and if it's good I'll can send some your way

kiwirevo said:

I'll see how it goes, definitely take some pics and if it's good I'll can send some your way

Click to expand...

awesome, look forward to it.

Wow F me that's a lot of hops!

MO & CaraRed are favorites of mine to use, if you change the Carafa to CaraAroma you'll get more red than brown.

Hope it's tasty!

Bottled it today and had another taste, can't wait to try it carbed.

Love the colour! So the hops aren't too muddled?

Looks great!

kiwirevo said:

Bottled it today and had another taste, can't wait to try it carbed.

Click to expand...

Looks the perfect colour to me!

I really want to know how much hop flavor and bitterness comes from your hop schedule. Subscribe

I'm pretty pleased with it at the moment, it's quite bitter, but being 11% and quite malty as well it works. the hop flavour is good, the aroma may be the thing that will be lacking, but I won't know that until it's carbed.