Double LME + sugar = ????

Hey Guys
Been doing abit of reading around...need some things more clarified.

Well ive got 3 fermenters on the go at the moment, all pretty simple stuff..
baby steps and all that..

1st/ started on 25/9
Real Ale (coopers) LME
BE2
Bottled yesterday
looking about 4%

2nd started on 26/9
Candian blond (coopers) LME
BE1
bottling today (depending on if the hydrometer readings are stable)
last reading was about 2.8%

3rd started on 29/9
Dark ale (coopers) LME
500g brown sugar
500g castor sugar
last reading was about 3.2%

WELLLL
they are all coming about pretty damn weak imo..

what im thinking next is
2 x LME (not sure on types as yet)
1kg sugar (also depending on LME type)
and maybe try it around 20L instead of 23L

will i get a better/stronger result?

It's hard to tell without your specific recipes most likely you did not use the right mix of water to extract. Roughly about 1lb/ gallon will get you around the 4-5% range.

1st batch i used 3L
2nd & 3rd i used 2L (to keep the wort temp down)

there has been a decrease of % with less hot/boiling water added...would u recommend using more than a Gallon?

Are you just taking a reading on your hydrometer from the alcohol percentage scale??

If so, that won't be showing you the actual ABV of your beer. That is showing you the potential alcohol %ge if your brew were to ferment out completely all of the sugars in solution.

Better to calculate from the Specific Gravities. OG= Original Gravity, FG= Finish Gravity.

Have a quick read through the following;

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/barcontrols/BeerandWineHydrometerScales.pdf

Sounds like you are hurrying these brews through and into bottling. You'll find that giving them at least a week to let the yeast "clean up", after having reached a stable FG, then bottling and conditioning for three weeks that you'll, generally, get a better end product.

nvs-brew said:

1st batch i used 3L
2nd & 3rd i used 2L (to keep the wort temp down)

there has been a decrease of % with less hot/boiling water added...would u recommend using more than a Gallon?

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What was your total batch size? If you did 2.5 gallons you should see about 5% abv with those cans.
if your batch is smaller the most likely your yeast isn't able to effectively consume the sugars due to a very high starting gravity.

You mentioned keeping the wort temp down so are you boiling the wort or just adding heated water? A good boil does a few things, in your case with a pre-hopped kit you are not boiling the hops to isomerize the alpha acids into bittering the beer. What you would boil for is to break down the proteins and sanitize the wort before putting into the fermenter. In your case you may wind up with a less clear brew and if not actually boiling you risk infection since the nasties are not killed off.

Have you tasted your beer yet? My bet is that since you are actually under diluting the wort concentrate your beer is under-attenuating due to the yeast getting stressed and will taste very sweet.

Ogri said:

Are you just taking a reading on your hydrometer from the alcohol percentage scale??

If so, that won't be showing you the actual ABV of your beer. That is showing you the potential alcohol %ge if your brew were to ferment out completely all of the sugars in solution.

Better to calculate from the Specific Gravities. OG= Original Gravity, FG= Finish Gravity.

Have a quick read through the following;

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/barcontrols/BeerandWineHydrometerScales.pdf

Sounds like you are hurrying these brews through and into bottling. You'll find that giving them at least a week to let the yeast "clean up", after having reached a stable FG, then bottling and conditioning for three weeks that you'll, generally, get a better end product.

Click to expand...

I didn't even think of that... def make sure you are reading the hydrometer correctly.

Did you use one of the coopers "brew enhancer" packs with each batch? These cans require additional fermentables for 5gallon batches.

When I've used Coopers Extracts I generally do something like the following.

Cooper's IPA 1.7Kg can of LME
Cooper's light malt 1.5Kg can of LME
Brown sugar 500Gr

Partial boil 2.5 Gallon for 60 mins with a little of the light LME, sugar, 1 Oz of Nugget or Magnum in from the start and then 1 Oz Cascade or Centennial at 10-15 mins 'til flame out. Then add my the bulk of my extracts. Cool down wort a bit, add to fermenter and top off to 21 litres. Pitch yeast when cool enough and let ferment in primary for three weeks.

Have had some pretty good results like that with high 6-7.something %ers

There's a member on here with the username unionrdr who's got some good recipes and notes for using the Cooper's HMEs

scottab said:

Did you use one of the coopers "brew enhancer" packs with each batch? These cans require additional fermentables for 5gallon batches.

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He wrote that he used a Brew enhancer 2 in the first brew, a brew enhancer 1 in the second and 500Gr each of castor and brown sugar in his third batch.

ok cool, well i will start getting my bottles ready and leave them in the fermenter a while longer..
and yeah, im dead keen to get them in the bottles....cant wait to give my brews a try!

ok im getting slightly mixed up with some of the measures..
being a Australian we do it all in litres..
i have a converter BUT even that differs..
US gallon = 3.78L
imperial gallon = 4.55L

being a mostly american site im guessing you go by the 1g=3.78L ??
is this true?

my fermenters are all 23L

scottab said:

Have you tasted your beer yet? My bet is that since you are actually under diluting the wort concentrate your beer is under-attenuating due to the yeast getting stressed and will taste very sweet.

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if so then ^^ would make sense!

nvs-brew said:

ok im getting slightly mixed up with some of the measures..
being a Australian we do it all in litres..
i have a converter BUT even that differs..
US gallon = 3.78L
imperial gallon = 4.55L

being a mostly american site im guessing you go by the 1g=3.78L ??
is this true?

Click to expand...

Yes, you've got that right. So the Cooper's Hopped Malt Extract cans say 5 gallons (imperial) which means these guys would be using 6 US Gallons.

nvs-brew said:

my fermenters are all 23L

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If you're using the Cooper's fermenters aren't they 30 litre capacity. Do you mean your fermenting volume of beer is 23 litres?

Ogri said:

Yes, you've got that right. So the Cooper's Hopped Malt Extract cans say 5 gallons (imperial) which means these guys would be using 6 US Gallons.

If you're using the Cooper's fermenters aren't they 30 litre capacity. Do you mean your fermenting volume of beer is 23 litres?

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AHHH excellent...so its imperial...well that some good info to know..
yeah fermenter is 30l...beer volume = 23l..

but back to the original point...
U dont think a double LME would help?

Ogri said:

Pitch yeast when cool enough and let ferment in primary for three weeks.

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I just went by craigtube and my hydrometer...reading was stable, so i bottled..
I have been doing alot of investigating into this brewing stuff, alot of mixed and varied stuff out there..

Ive seen people say dont leave it more than a week when readings are stable,
but then you mention leaving it in the fermenter for 3 weeks..

Can leaving it in the fermenter that time do it damage or only improve my beer?

It can only improve by having the yeast clean up after themselves.

By the way. What was the original and final hydrometer reading. It should read something like 1.047 at the beginning then around 1.014 when done...

1042 OG
1010 FG
then bottled

so my next batch that i believe will have a stable reading, im going to leave it...
OR
can i bottle some now to see the result, and then bottle the rest in a week and see the difference?
do you have to bottle them all at same time?
sounds silly that you couldnt!

thanx for the advise btw guys!

Just doubling up on the kit cans (LME as you say but they're also known as HME or Hopped Malt Extract) would give you a stronger brew but there's a good chance it'd be questionable, flavourwise, as the recipe would likely be a bit out of balance. Way too malty and/or ridiculously bitter depending on what you used.

Like I said before, check out this guys recipe suggestions (screen name unionrdr. Click on the little white triangle beside the word "recipes", under his avatar) using Cooper's kits, do some more reading and research here on Homebrewtalk.com and keep on asking questions.

nvs-brew said:

1042 OG
1010 FG
then bottled

so my next batch that i believe will have a stable reading, im going to leave it...
OR
can i bottle some now to see the result, and then bottle the rest in a week and see the difference?
do you have to bottle them all at same time?
sounds silly that you couldnt!

Click to expand...

You could do that, if you wanted, but just make sure you're really careful about sanitizing whatever you're using to transfer beer from the fermenter to bottle so that the beer left in the fermenter doesn't get any contaminants in there. That's why it's probably less risky to do it all at once. I take it you are using cooper's carbonation drops.

Ogri said:

You could do that, if you wanted, but just make sure you're really careful about sanitizing whatever you're using to transfer beer from the fermenter to bottle so that the beer left in the fermenter doesn't get any contaminants in there.

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thats understandable...i THINK im being good regarding sanatizing...infact i may go overboard..so i may give that a try

Ogri said:

I take it you are using cooper's carbonation drops.

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i am, i got a deceased estate, that was full of stuff, some of the carbination drops are OLD, best before 05....but once again, ive read that that shouldnt affect?
deny/confirm?

What would u recommend using?

I've never used the Coopers carbonation drops so can't offer any experience/opinion there. I just use regular table sugar for priming my bottles.

5 Oz sugar for a 5 US gallon (19 litre) batch. Mixed with about 400 ml boiled water, cool down a bit and add to bottling bucket. Rack beer over sugar solution in Btlng Bckt and start bottling.

Just tasted both and they taste good, I've dumped all my hydro samples till today, silly of me, but you learn things everyday!
Happy with everything taste wise so far, but yeah just the alcohol % that disappointed me!

Onwards and upwards they say!
More research to do.

So what is the best way to boost my %? Sugars?

nvs-brew said:

So what is the best way to boost my %? Sugars?

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In a word, yes.

Malts are sugars. Standard white cane sugar ferments out 100%. Malts ferment to a lesser degree leaving behind long chain sugars which give the sweetness, body and mouthfeel to your beer. Ideally you want your grain bill, the total amount of fermentables (plain sugar and malts) at 70%, or better, malts and up to 30% simple sugars. Sugar fermenting 100% leads to alcohol but no flavour hence a dryer product if used in large quantities.

So, if, for example you had a 1.7 Kg can of Cooper's IPA, a 500 Gr bag of Dry Malt Extract and less than 1 Kg of simple sugar you'd be ok. If you wanted more alcohol it's best, flavourwise, to chuck in another 500Gr bag of DME. Having decided to do that you'd be wise to think about doing hop additions to balance the sweetness resulting from the malt additions.

Awesome info, yeah I've started out pretty much package standard stuff, best I start to get into the more individual parts

Hi MBA brew,

I'm in Aus as well and I know exactly what you are doing.
I didn't fully read all the previous posts so if the has already been mentioned I apologise.
When I first started I did heaps of those coopers cans with either BE1 or BE2 added as the extra kilo of sugar/ fermentables.
Your alc content will be around 5% no matter what you do with these extract kits.
What you are reading on your hydro is the potential alc. it is much better to look at the gravity readings on it (just turn it around until you see it).
As the beer ferments the liquid becomes less viscous, meaning it's not as thick. This means your hydrometer will sink more into your sample. This is why you are getting low alc readings, because it is giving an estimate of potential alc based on the current gravity after it has already fermented the sugars. The sugars you added from the can and 1kg of BE2 or what ever, will make the water thicker and the hydrometer will float higher. As the yeast eat the sugar away the hydro will sink lower, know what I mean?
Anyway I'm happy to answer any other questions you may have.
Where abouts in aus are you from?

Gab.

Sorry, Hi, nvs-brew,
Freeking auto correct.

Ogri said:

He wrote that he used a Brew enhancer 2 in the first brew, a brew enhancer 1 in the second and 500Gr each of castor and brown sugar in his third batch.

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Now looking back i see that.

What are those Brew Enhancers? Glucose(dextrose)/maltodextrin blends or Brewer's Crystals (tm) (glucose partially converted to maltose to mimic malt fermentability)?

Hey NVS Brew,

if you haven't already been pointed towards,
How To Brew
take a scan through.

That'll give you a lot of the basics, and more, plus John Palmer explains things far better than I can :rockin:

ArcaneXor said:

What are those Brew Enhancers? Glucose(dextrose)/maltodextrin blends or Brewer's Crystals (tm) (glucose partially converted to maltose to mimic malt fermentability)?

Click to expand...

looks like more so the 1st..dextrose/maltodextrin
http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewers-guild/brewing-products/brew-sugars/sugars

Ogri: your a bloody champion