Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

My opinion is that it needs six weeks to age. That is pretty quick for a cider.

Mine was drinkable right away, but it was definitely a bit tart. Sad part is, right about when I killed the keg 4 weeks later is when it really started to get good and improved a lot. Next batch I make I'll let it age for a month before I tap it.

The best one is always the last.

Ok, so I made this with 4 gallons fresh pressed cider, 3.3lbs LME and C80/90 and its been in primary w/ BRY-97 since 12/23. I fermented around 66-67F for 2-3 weeks then moved it to my 56F "cold closet" to settle and clear. It's not cleared. I added gelatin on 1/30 to try to move it along but its not helping.

I'm not sure what to do next. My first batch came out crystal clear after 3 weeks in primary with no finings. Any suggestions?

woknblues said:

I just picked up my grain bill, going to brew this tomorrow for a ten gallon batch.

6lb two row
1lb special b
4 oz honey malt
4 oz flaked wheat
8 oz carapils
1 oz us fuggles

I really want some body, residual sweetness and head retention here....

+8 gallons of sam's club AJ

Poured onto safeale-04 cakes... I will do one up as quick as the recipe calls for , the other will bulk age.

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So I did this the other day. A nice and easy brew day for a 10 gallon batch. I am looking forward to what the special b, flaked wheat and honey malts add to the mix. I did forget to siphon off the hops, but I suspect they will drop out of suspension by the time I rack...The sa-04 cakes were not ready at pitching time, so I dropped in fresh sa-05. Airlocks are bubbling away. Looking forward to this, thanks for the recipe/idea.

OcularTrauma said:

Ok, so I made this with 4 gallons fresh pressed cider, 3.3lbs LME and C80/90 and its been in primary w/ BRY-97 since 12/23. I fermented around 66-67F for 2-3 weeks then moved it to my 56F "cold closet" to settle and clear. It's not cleared. I added gelatin on 1/30 to try to move it along but its not helping.

I'm not sure what to do next. My first batch came out crystal clear after 3 weeks in primary with no finings. Any suggestions?

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What temperature was the wort when you put it in the cider? Putting the wort into the cider or juice to hot can cause problems clearing.

BrewerBear said:

What temperature was the wort when you put it in the cider? Putting the wort into the cider or juice to hot can cause problems clearing.

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My notes say the wort was about 100-90°F when I dropped it in the carboy on top of 2 gallons of straight from the fridge (38°F+/-2°F) fresh pressed apple juice, then topped it off with another 1.75g of said juice. Pitched BRY-97 @ 62-64°F and fermented low and slow. I let it free rise up to about 67-68°F on day 3-4, and then I just let it go after that.

The cider was cloudy, but not that cloudy. Its the same exact cider from the same orchard I used the first time, the only changes were LME, yeast and darker steeping grains. I followed the same temperature and handling process for the cider. First batch was crystal clear into the keg @ 2-3 weeks, this one is still cloudy after more than a month.

Could I have possibly induced pectin haze? I figured I was good with my temps. Is it too late for pectic enzyme?

Fresh pressed might be more susceptible to pectin haze and with larger variation from batch to batch. so long as you don't mind the extra wait time, it's really never too late to try enzyme in a brew ime

Just made my first batch of this stuff last night. Tried to stay as close to the original recipe as possible.
.5 lb of Crystal 60L
1 lb Amber DME
1 lb Light DME
1 oz Torrified Wheet
.05 oz Cascade hops 5.00% AA
used Nottingham Yeast
4 gallons of Musselman's Apple Cider

Cooled the wort down to 75 F, poured the cider and pitched the yeast at 68 F. OG was 1.061.

I pitched the yeast at 11pm last night.

Checked the airlock this morning at 730am. Nothing. Hopefully i didnt do anything wrong and it just takes awhile for it to get going.

My buddy and I both did these batches at the exact same time. Difference is I re-hydrated my Yeast. Mine was bubbling about 8hours later, his took close to 30hrs or so. I'd say just keep waiting. Plus, an airlock means nothing really. I have 2 pails that I know for a fact will never cause bubbles, but both have produced about a half dozen batches each so far. They are leaking somehow but the beer is always perfectly fine.

Just got Home about 5 minutes ago and checked the Graff. It's fermenting like crazy!

I'm brewing up my first graff right now! 8 gallons with Cascades and Kirkland AJ, 100%, not from concentrate. I'm using white wheat instead of torrified - are they very different?

I bottle my first batch tomorrow or Sunday.

Made mine per the instructions on Feb 2nd. I ended up using 2 gallons of Tree Top and 2 gallons of Mott's apple juice. The store did not have 4 gallons of just one. I also used .5 oz of Sterling hops. I have never used sterling before but it sounded interesting. So far it has been a very steady and slow fermentation. Can't wait to try it. Cheers

I'm hoping this improves with age...it's not matching my expectations on the flavor I imagined! Very cloudy and tart even with a crash cool. If I do this again I'll go with a darker version and try a different yeast. Used Safale-05 and it fermented like crazy filling up the blow-off tube but I think I'd prefer more malt character as this currently tastes a lot like cloudy apfelwein. I used 4g of the fresh pressed cider from Sprouts--it was cloudy to start with so I'm wondering if the apple solids hang around with a fresh cider vs. a filtered apple juice. We'll see! Luckily I have four kegs of various brews to keep me occupied!

I just finished the recipe using Safe ale-05 and .33 oz hops. My OG is 1.054 is this about right?

Hello All, I'm planning on making a batch of this really soon. One question though, it seems like everyone uses apple juice for it, except Krrazy just now. I'd rather use real apple cider. Is there any downside? I'm wondering about how it clears since it is cloudy to start with? Is it more tart than juice?

Thanks!

Mike

McRoth said:

Hello All, I'm planning on making a batch of this really soon. One question though, it seems like everyone uses apple juice for it, except Krrazy just now. I'd rather use real apple cider. Is there any downside? I'm wondering about how it clears since it is cloudy to start with? Is it more tart than juice?

Thanks!

Mike

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You know, all this talk about using juice vs. cider is troubling to me. The way you or I define "cider" is totally arbitrary, even in the eyes of the FDA. It's ALL 100% apple juice regardless of the label.

www.applejuice.org/juicecider.html

So use something you like to drink straight. Unless we decide on a common definition for "cider" we might as well just talk about filtered vs. unfiltered juice.

SilverZero said:

You know, all this talk about using juice vs. cider is troubling to me. The way you or I define "cider" is totally arbitrary, even in the eyes of the FDA. It's ALL 100% apple juice regardless of the label.

www.applejuice.org/juicecider.html

So use something you like to drink straight. Unless we decide on a common definition for "cider" we might as well just talk about filtered vs. unfiltered juice.

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Good point, never really thought about the difference between the two! Well, same questions then with filtered vs. unfiltered. Mainly interested in how unfiltered clears though.

Thanks!

Mike

I made this stuff. I love it and I've gotten a lot of positive feedback on it from others too. I'd like to enter it in an upcoming competition but I have no idea what bjcp category this would fit into. Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

Krrazy said:

I'm hoping this improves with age...it's not matching my expectations on the flavor I imagined! Very cloudy and tart even with a crash cool. If I do this again I'll go with a darker version and try a different yeast. Used Safale-05 and it fermented like crazy filling up the blow-off tube but I think I'd prefer more malt character as this currently tastes a lot like cloudy apfelwein. I used 4g of the fresh pressed cider from Sprouts--it was cloudy to start with so I'm wondering if the apple solids hang around with a fresh cider vs. a filtered apple juice. We'll see! Luckily I have four kegs of various brews to keep me occupied!

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IM in the same boat. I'm thinking I should have used filtered juice. I doubt this will clear up

From what I'm seeing, if you use fresh pressed from an orchard or if you are using a store brand with solids in it, its probably not going to clear. After my experience with straight hard cider, I think pectic enzyme will be your friend if you want your graff clear.

I'm reading conflicting info about pectic enzyme... some say it only works pre-ferment because the alcohol will disrupt its function. Others are saying its fine after primary fermentation is complete.

Anyone have some actual experience with this stuff? I'll probably go dig around in the cider and wine sections and see what I can find.

What's the shelf life like on this recipe? I want to make a 2 gallon batch sometime soon inside on my stovetop to have ready for the spring summer months. But I don't want it to be past its prime by then, so I could always wait. Thanks

Sippin37 said:

What's the shelf life like on this recipe? I want to make a 2 gallon batch sometime soon inside on my stovetop to have ready for the spring summer months. But I don't want it to be past its prime by then, so I could always wait. Thanks

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Everybody's been sayin it's awesome after six months to a year. And id bet it would only improve after that as well.

Sippin37 said:

What's the shelf life like on this recipe? I want to make a 2 gallon batch sometime soon inside on my stovetop to have ready for the spring summer months. But I don't want it to be past its prime by then, so I could always wait. Thanks

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I think it is MUCH better aged. I just made six gallons, with the intent of drinking it in the summer. It just finished primary, and I am now bulk aging it in my cellar until at least June.

AcRocket said:

Just made my first batch of this stuff last night. Tried to stay as close to the original recipe as possible.
.5 lb of Crystal 60L
1 lb Amber DME
1 lb Light DME
1 oz Torrified Wheet
.05 oz Cascade hops 5.00% AA
used Nottingham Yeast
4 gallons of Musselman's Apple Cider

Cooled the wort down to 75 F, poured the cider and pitched the yeast at 68 F. OG was 1.061.

I pitched the yeast at 11pm last night.

Checked the airlock this morning at 730am. Nothing. Hopefully i didnt do anything wrong and it just takes awhile for it to get going.

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After 5 days of fermenting, and no more action in the airlock, i decided to take a look into the fermenter and take a hydrometer reading. It was 1.004. That was pretty quick. Im going to let it sit another few days and see if FG changes at all. It's a nice golden color. Since i used unfilter apple juice, or apple cider, i doubt it will clear up a lot.

The taste was tart, didnt really have any apple flavor at all, and was was completely flat. Looking forward to the end product.

I'm going to be making a cider soon, but I've been trying to decide which apple juice to get. PC organics apple juice looks good but it's from concentrate with filtered water. Allen's and Rougemont is always tasty though, and not from concentrate.

fumanchu said:

I'm going to be making a cider soon, but I've been trying to decide which apple juice to get. PC organics apple juice looks good but it's from concentrate with filtered water. Allen's and Rougemont is always tasty though, and not from concentrate.

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Got a Costco? Kirkland is not from concentrate, nothing added, $8.50 for 2 gallons at my store.

Sippin37 said:

What's the shelf life like on this recipe? I want to make a 2 gallon batch sometime soon inside on my stovetop to have ready for the spring summer months. But I don't want it to be past its prime by then, so I could always wait. Thanks

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This improves with age - not that great immediately but 9 to 12 months later was excellent!!

I just kegged mine on Sunday. Set the PSI to 10 and pulled my first one last night.

Quite tart up front but the finish is bright and complex. Very nice. I will enjoy it very much. The tartness will scare some away. I'm going to brew another batch soon and let it sit until late spring.

Mine might be a bit light/watery. I think I'd like a little more maltiness, but apple is fine. The grain bill might get bumped slightly (7oz amber, 5oz crystal). I didn't notice the hops but will wait to judge until I get more in my gullet. I might bump that to 1/3 oz.

The Carapils did a nice job for a nice little head.

I have 2.5 gallon corny kegs so I did a half batch:

1/2 gallon of beer:

• 4 oz Crystal 90L
• 1/2 oz Carapils
• 6 oz Amber DME
• 6 oz Light DME
• 1/4 oz Cascade hops

2 gallon Indian Summer cider

whole pack of rehydrated Notty

(Pectic Enzyme & Yeast Nutrients)

EDIT: THANKS BRANDON!!!

SilverZero said:

Got a Costco? Kirkland is not from concentrate, nothing added, $8.50 for 2 gallons at my store.

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Our Costco sells Rougemont in cases of 6x 2L bottles for $10.99, so $20 and daddy and the kids are happy!

Here's a pic.

OcularTrauma said:

I'm reading conflicting info about pectic enzyme... some say it only works pre-ferment because the alcohol will disrupt its function. Others are saying its fine after primary fermentation is complete.

Anyone have some actual experience with this stuff? I'll probably go dig around in the cider and wine sections and see what I can find.

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I really like it. I put it in before ferment.

timcadieux said:

Our Costco sells Rougemont in cases of 6x 2L bottles for $10.99, so $20 and daddy and the kids are happy!

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Went with the allen's. Not from concentrate and absolutely delicious canned goodness. Tastes fresh. I tried the organic concentrate/water and it's just not as good, tastes old and lacking in flavour.

I bought a gallon of pineapple juice as well. That should be interesting. I don't think I'll make a graff this time around, but might boil just a little cascade and see how that turns out. A slightly hopped pineapple/apple cider.

AcRocket said:

After 5 days of fermenting, and no more action in the airlock, i decided to take a look into the fermenter and take a hydrometer reading. It was 1.004. That was pretty quick. Im going to let it sit another few days and see if FG changes at all. It's a nice golden color. Since i used unfilter apple juice, or apple cider, i doubt it will clear up a lot.

The taste was tart, didnt really have any apple flavor at all, and was was completely flat. Looking forward to the end product.

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One Week Mark- Im pretty sure this is done fermenting. Took a hyrdometer reading and it was at 1.004. Same as day 5. Starting to clear up a little. Not a cloudy. Taste - there is a good tart apple taste to it. better than it was 2 days ago. Time to let it sit in the carboy for another week then to bottles.

Mines been in the keg for a while now and I've enjoyed the flavor evolution. Has anybody run into the issue of it becoming too tart by adding too much malt?
Other than adding less in the next batch, how have others fixed that in the past?

Bottled mine today after 2 weeks primary and 1 week in seconday. Finished off at 1.003. Tasted pretty good. The wife said "It has a beer taste" but she liked it. Hope she does because she has 2 cases of it.

So, I "KIND" of made this a few weeks ago. My fourth batch of beer was a brown ale P.M. kit that I tried to rush through on a week night. Ended up using too much water, so what was supposed to yield 5.5 Gal into the fermenter ended with 6.25. OG was low, so I boiled up some DME to get me to the right starting point...

Once I hit FG, I racked 5 gallons into my carboy, and figured "What the heck!" Picked up 4 Gallons of Apple Juice from the store and dumped it in. Wish I'd taken an OG on this, but it was an after thought so I wasn't thinking straight. Two weeks later I checked the FG, .992. I was surprised to see it that low, but it sounds like it's not too uncommon, so I won't worry. I will note, that it was the worst smelling batch of anything I've ever had. I mean WOW it was strong.

It was super Cloudy at the two week mark so I racked it to secondary when I bottled the brown, which is where it's been for a week. It has clarified significantly (was surprised to see another inch of trub form in the bottom of the carboy.) Stell smells pretty atrocious, but it is drinkable. Not ENJOYABLE, but drinkable. I'm bottling it and a Porter this weekend. I'm guessing some bottle conditioning, carbing, then chilling should make it better.

At the very least it was a fun little experiment that didn't cost me anything more than a little leftover wort, and $12 worth of Apple juice; and worst case, I just store the bottles in a closet for a year, and I'm sure everything should turn out just fine! I'll check in again after I pop the first bottle in a few weeks.

I made this yesterday using the original recipe on page 1 of this thread. I had just bottled an all grain batch of White House Honey Ale, where I had used S-04, so I just poured it all in the fermenter on top of the yeast cake. I added 0.5 oz Cascade during the graff boil. Within 2 hours it was blowing the Star San out of the airlock, and it's still doing it this morning.

I'm guessing the yeast will impart some of the hop flavor from the beer into the cider as well.

Argh, was getting ready to bottle and I noticed the recipe has nothing regarding how much priming sugar (dextrose ) for bottling..everyone just says, same rules apply as to beer. Umm, every beer style requires a different amount...I've seen references to 1/2cup and 3/4 cup, any ideas?