Wyeast 3711 French Saison

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jbags5 said:
Think I may transfer to secondary soon, since I don't want bottle bombs.
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transferring to secondary won't prevent bottle bombs. if there are sugars in there that the yeast can still eat, they will eat them. going to secondary will decrease the yeast population so it'll take longer... but they'll get to it eventually. so if you transfer, you're increasing the chances that there will be sugars left in there when you bottle - and increasing your chances of bottle bombs, unless you secondary for a really long time. hence, you shouldn't go to secondary until primary fermentation is complete.

just because it's bubbling doesn't necessarily mean that fermentation is still happening. the beer could be off-gassing, reacting to changes in temps or atmospheric pressure, etc. have you taken gravity readings recently?
 
So many 3711 posts and threads -- hopefully this is a reasonable place to post this.

I'm brewing a rye saison tomorrow and plan is to separate 10 gallons of wort to two carboys, pitching a 3724 starter into one and a 3711 starter into the other. I've got good temp control, so was going to start at 68F for a couple of days then ratchet it up to 77F or so over the next several days.

From the many posts on this, I'm expecting the 3724 batch to slow down at around 1.020, and like the idea of re-activating it with some 3711 after the initial fermentation. Which brings me to my question: what's the best method to do this? Few options I considered:

1) Pitch a brand new smack pack of 3711 -- seems kind of wasteful considering the active carboy of 3711 already going (ruled this out)

2) Rack the carboy of 3711 to a new carboy after a week and transfer the 3724 batch onto the 3711 yeast cake. Just wondering if that's rushing the 3711 batch for yeast to clean up?

3) Would a wine thief sample from the 3711 batch have enough active yeast in suspension to inoculate the 3724 (let's say after first 48 hours)?

Other options to consider?
 
beekgeek said:
So many 3711 posts and threads -- hopefully this is a reasonable place to post this.

I'm brewing a rye saison tomorrow and plan is to separate 10 gallons of wort to two carboys, pitching a 3724 starter into one and a 3711 starter into the other. I've got good temp control, so was going to start at 68F for a couple of days then ratchet it up to 77F or so over the next several days.

From the many posts on this, I'm expecting the 3724 batch to slow down at around 1.020, and like the idea of re-activating it with some 3711 after the initial fermentation. Which brings me to my question: what's the best method to do this? Few options I considered:

1) Pitch a brand new smack pack of 3711 -- seems kind of wasteful considering the active carboy of 3711 already going (ruled this out)

2) Rack the carboy of 3711 to a new carboy after a week and transfer the 3724 batch onto the 3711 yeast cake. Just wondering if that's rushing the 3711 batch for yeast to clean up?

3) Would a wine thief sample from the 3711 batch have enough active yeast in suspension to inoculate the 3724 (let's say after first 48 hours)?

Other options to consider?
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I'd go #2. Might not be any better than 3, but you know a lot of this hobby is gut feel.
 
beekgeek said:
So many 3711 posts and threads -- hopefully this is a reasonable place to post this.

I'm brewing a rye saison tomorrow and plan is to separate 10 gallons of wort to two carboys, pitching a 3724 starter into one and a 3711 starter into the other. I've got good temp control, so was going to start at 68F for a couple of days then ratchet it up to 77F or so over the next several days.

From the many posts on this, I'm expecting the 3724 batch to slow down at around 1.020, and like the idea of re-activating it with some 3711 after the initial fermentation. Which brings me to my question: what's the best method to do this? Few options I considered:

1) Pitch a brand new smack pack of 3711 -- seems kind of wasteful considering the active carboy of 3711 already going (ruled this out)

2) Rack the carboy of 3711 to a new carboy after a week and transfer the 3724 batch onto the 3711 yeast cake. Just wondering if that's rushing the 3711 batch for yeast to clean up?

3) Would a wine thief sample from the 3711 batch have enough active yeast in suspension to inoculate the 3724 (let's say after first 48 hours)?

Other options to consider?
Click to expand...

Option 4 would be to make the 3711 starter larger or save a bit and step it up with some of the wort from the brew. You could then use this step up starter to reinforce the 3724 if as you expect it stops at 1.020 .
 
I've done option 3, I pulled maybe 8 ozs when fermentation appered to be at its peek and pitch it into a slowing/stopped batch that was pitched with T-58 dry yeast. It was at 1.018 when I decided to dose it with 3711 and it finish 1.010. I let go for another 10-14 days after I pitched the 3711.
 
i would do a modified version of #2: don't wait a week, wait as long as it takes to get the 3724 to stall out. by then, the 3711 should have completed its fermentation. rack 3711 to another vessel, put 3724 on the 3711 cake. maybe it'll take a week, maybe it won't... i would get locked into a set schedule.

pitching an active starter of 3711, perhaps from cells saves from the initial pitch, is also a good idea.
 
Normally I would agree with the more effort necessary approaches. However last time I did this I only used a very small amount of 3711 pitched into the dupont strain. It dried out fine and tasted like dupont not 3711. Racking the dupont portion onto the 3711 cake is overkill and entirely unnecessary. Plus talk about a fairly significant flavor contribution with that much yeast, not from fermentation, but just liquid volume in the yeast culture.
 
using the whole cake, while overkill, is indeed the easiest way (read: we're all lazy). the flavor contribution of the 3711 will be minimal since it won't be doing any reproduction. also, it will be pitched into a beer with a certain alcohol content... not the most hospitable enviro for yeast so better to go over than under.

you can cold-crash the 3711 and it will settle out just fine. my 3711 saison is crystal clear.
 
smokinghole said:
Some wine thief of the 3711 sounds like the easiest to me. Quick dunk/spray with sani, poke into 3711, wait a couple seconds, empty into dupont. How's racking it easier?
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true enough, that is low-effort.

i'm quite surprised at your experience that one wine thief full was enough to dry it out. one thief wouldn't bring across enough cells IMO. methinks you'd want about a dozen thief's full... but i haven't done it, so there you go.
 
Lots of good feedback. Thanks for talking it over.

Holding back some starter (and adding some of the new wort) was a good idea -- unfortunately I'd already pitched the entire starter before sitting down to read these new posts. Next time :)

I'm going to see how long it takes for the 3724 to konk out (assuming it does). I might try the wine thief idea first and if that doesn't do anything, rack onto the 3711 cake.

Looking forward to comparing the two strains. Thanks again!
 
beekgeek said:
Lots of good feedback. Thanks for talking it over.

Holding back some starter (and adding some of the new wort) was a good idea -- unfortunately I'd already pitched the entire starter before sitting down to read these new posts. Next time :)

I'm going to see how long it takes for the 3724 to konk out (assuming it does). I might try the wine thief idea first and if that doesn't do anything, rack onto the 3711 cake.

Looking forward to comparing the two strains. Thanks again!
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When dealing with 3724 I'd leave the 3711 out entirely. 3724 has a range of 70 degrees up to 95 degrees. If you can run it up to higher temps and I think that'll lower your FG, but this is just from what I've heard. I know the temps are right though.

Right now I've got a 3711 at 7 days and am planning to take a gravity sampling tonight. From everything I've heard I'm expecting my gravity reading to be in the single digits. Not bad from the OG being a 1.060 reading. Nothing like a 6.5%-6.8% ABV saison! My next saison will use the 3724....when I have a fermentation chamber. For this one though, I'm going to transfer to a secondary, dry hop with amarillo for a week to 10 days. Remove the hop bag and crash cool it with gelatin for about 3 to 5 days, then bottle.

Let me know what you end up doing, I'll be curious about your approach.
 
So far I've left the two strains independent. I brewed and pitched yeast starters May 17 (68F) into 1.052 wort. Have been gradually raising temp on both batches (71F as of May 21) and will continue until about 77-78. Gravity ratings last night (4 days from pitching starters) was 1.030 for the 3711 batch and still 1.040 for 3724 (a little slower than i expected). Going to give them another few days before doing another gravity read and then decide what to do next.
 
Update: As predicted, the 3711 outpaced the 3724. Yesterday I bottled the "French" strain batch which has been down at 1.008 for over a week. The Belgian never dropped below 1.030 -- even after adding ~ 250ml of wort from the 3711 batch (my option #3). So after bottling the 3711 (crashed cooled to 50F), I rewarmed the carboy and racked the 3724 onto the 3711 yeast cake. Less than 12 hours later the airlock was kicking out a fair amount of CO2 and the wort continues to show a significant amount of activity. So whether thanks to the aeration, the 3711 yeast cake, or some terrible bacterial infection, I'm optimistic I'll have a second batch of 3724-influenced Saison ready to go soon.

BTW, I think of Saisons being more French Belgian (versus Flemish Belgian) -- any idea why Wyeast has labeled the 3711 strain "French"?
 
Just had to chime in. I am doing my first saison and I had read so many good things about 3711 I had to try it. My saison has been in primary for 12 days. Checked the gravity today and it is a super dry 0.998. Tasted the sample and it really tasted nice. Kept the ambient temperature at 62 degrees for the entire fermentation. I am really excited about this one.
 
phuff7129 said:
Just had to chime in. I am doing my first saison and I had read so many good things about 3711 I had to try it. My saison has been in primary for 12 days. Checked the gravity today and it is a super dry 0.998. Tasted the sample and it really tasted nice. Kept the ambient temperature at 62 degrees for the entire fermentation. I am really excited about this one.
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Why did you ferment so low? I usually try to keep my saisons with 3711 at 75+ degrees ambient to get that nice yeasty saison goodness in my beer.

Currently fermenting a batch for about 2 weeks, and it's in my spare bathroom with a damn space heater on to keep the ambient temp around 80. I figured it'd be easier to find 80 degree temps in June, but it's been cooler than usual around here lately.

Anyway, I've never fermented one that low before, and I'm sure you'll end up with great, clean tasting beer, but I'm not sure you'll get the most out of the flavors the 3711 can impart at higher temps.
 
jbags5 said:
Why did you ferment so low? I usually try to keep my saisons with 3711 at 75+ degrees ambient to get that nice yeasty saison goodness in my beer.

Currently fermenting a batch for about 2 weeks, and it's in my spare bathroom with a damn space heater on to keep the ambient temp around 80. I figured it'd be easier to find 80 degree temps in June, but it's been cooler than usual around here lately.

Anyway, I've never fermented one that low before, and I'm sure you'll end up with great, clean tasting beer, but I'm not sure you'll get the most out of the flavors the 3711 can impart at higher temps.
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Based on what I had read about 3711 it sounded like it would do a great job at lower temps. My basement stays at a consistent 62 degrees. I figured I would try it at lower temps this time and next time I will have my fermentation chamber done and I can reliably vary temperatures.
 
There are a lot of conflicting reports about temp with 3711 but I got much better flavor from 70-80 than 60-70.
 
tagz said:
There are a lot of conflicting reports about temp with 3711 but I got much better flavor from 70-80 than 60-70.
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That's good information. My understanding is at lower temps ester production will be somewhat muted and phenol production will be emphasized. I have read that a great way to manage fermentation on a Saison is to start it on the low end of temp and increase the temp into the 80's over approx. 5 days. It's thought that this gives you the best phenol and ester production.
I am new to brewing saisons and I wanted to be able to experiment with different types of fermentation and some different types of yeast. Also I've had a few saisons which I thought were just too funky and I thought it might be from high ester production so I decided to keep this fermentation cool to inhibit ester production to see if that suits my taste. When I checked gravity it smelled and tasted great. I can't wait to get it carbed. Here's a question. What level to you guys carb your saisons and do you bottle or keg?
 
phuff7129 said:
That's good information. My understanding is at lower temps ester production will be somewhat muted and phenol production will be emphasized. I have read that a great way to manage fermentation on a Saison is to start it on the low end of temp and increase the temp into the 80's over approx. 5 days. It's thought that this gives you the best phenol and ester production.
I am new to brewing saisons and I wanted to be able to experiment with different types of fermentation and some different types of yeast. Also I've had a few saisons which I thought were just too funky and I thought it might be from high ester production so I decided to keep this fermentation cool to inhibit ester production to see if that suits my taste. When I checked gravity it smelled and tasted great. I can't wait to get it carbed. Here's a question. What level to you guys carb your saisons and do you bottle or keg?
Click to expand...

I bottle but i bottle all my beer and when some beers are better in the bottle i dont think saison is one of them as it doesnt age very well, for co2 i like to get it to 3 volume
 
I think you could spend years figuring out the nuances of 3711 and how temp affects it.

Also Saison is traditionally a bottled beer, and it ages exceedingly well.
 
i bottle in thick belgian bottles (mostly Duvel bottles) and i typically carb in the 3.5 range. i wouldn't go that high with regular bottle, i'd stay around 2.7-2.8.

saisons age very nicely although i find a higher alcohol level (say over 6%) helps. magic happens when you add brett and let that sit for a few months.
 
sweetcell said:
i bottle in thick belgian bottles (mostly Duvel bottles) and i typically carb in the 3.5 range. i wouldn't go that high with regular bottle, i'd stay around 2.7-2.8.

saisons age very nicely although i find a higher alcohol level (say over 6%) helps. magic happens when you add brett and let that sit for a few months.
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I go to 3.5 in regular bottles all the time. No issue.
 
Ok I'm brewing up another. Any objections to starting at 70-72 rather than the usual 68? I see a lot of people say that fusels are not a problem...
 
Tagz,

You'll be fine at those temps. Expect more of the fruit esters, less of the spicy phenols. Good for summer!
 
I used 3711 on my saison this summer. Let it sit for three weeks in primary - mostly at 80-85F - and removed it from the freezer yesterday to keg. When I did the yeast kicked up at the bottom and began fermenting all over again (bubbles and new krausen for the last 24 hours since!) So now I need to wait some more with my carboy wrapped in a dark blanket on my kitchen floor. Once the bubbles stop I'll drop soome gelatin on this bad boy and be done with it.
 
maltoftheearth said:
I used 3711 on my saison this summer. Let it sit for three weeks in primary - mostly at 80-85F - and removed it from the freezer yesterday to keg. When I did the yeast kicked up at the bottom and began fermenting all over again (bubbles and new krausen for the last 24 hours since!) So now I need to wait some more with my carboy wrapped in a dark blanket on my kitchen floor. Once the bubbles stop I'll drop soome gelatin on this bad boy and be done with it.
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Did you take a hydrometer reading?
 
No, no hydrometer reading yet. I'll take one tonight since activity has stopped, then see if we're ready for gelatin.
 
3 weeks of fermenting at 65-66F dropped the gravity to almost 1.000! (from 1.050)

I split my batches in 2 5gals and the other half was WL550 but was clearly not as citricy as this one! Next time I'd do a ramp up fermentation starting at 66F and ramp it up to 72F!
 
theQ said:
3 weeks of fermenting at 65-66F dropped the gravity to almost 1.000! (from 1.050)

I split my batches in 2 5gals and the other half was WL550 but was clearly not as citricy as this one! Next time I'd do a ramp up fermentation starting at 66F and ramp it up to 72F!
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Sounds really close to the Saison I just kegged. 1.056 to 1.000. Took a few weeks and I fermented hot. Smells like heaven though.
 
ChshreCat said:
I've got 3711 in my fridge to use my saison that I was *supposed* to brew today (grumble) but will brew soon.

I'd be curious if anyone who used 3724 might try the same or a similar recipe with 3711 to how they compare flavor wise.
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A buddy if mine and I did a 10 gallon batch and split it with 3711 going into 5 and 3724 going into another 5.

His stuck, and he finished win s-05. Mine finished very low at .001! I really like it, nice spicy taste. His was a bit smoother though, maybe a bit more palatable to those who might not like such a peppery/clove like spice.
 
i did 2 split batches with 3711 and 3724, dont have my notes in front of me but from memory 3711 is maintenance free and delivers great results in short time, extremely dry and refreshing with great body and flavor profile. You can get very interesting beer with 3724 but it will take much longer and at high temperature with FG still higher than 3711. For higher OG beers i would be careful with 3711 as it will make alcohol forward beer that could be too much (that the 2nd split batch, i ended up with 9%+ ABV beer after two weeks fermentation with 3711 and even after 4 months in the bottle alcohol flavor in predominant where 3724 batch is still finishing (added brett) with FG like 3711 but great flavor so far)
 
3724 just needs heat. Like 85/90. Never gave me a problem. +1 on the high abv beers though. At%8 you start dealing with fusels. But, you can start your ferment at 60 and ramp up to get over the 1.020 hump.
 
I have made three Saison batches using the 3711 with the basic recipe below, with only a few tweaks by batch 3 (no pepper, Citra hops instead of Sorachi Ace). All three batches were great, and very similar in flavor.

About two months ago I made the exact same recipe and substituted in the 3724 yeast. I kept it at ~85 F for 3 weeks or so, which was a bit of a challenge, vs. the 3711, which I just moved to a warmer room in the house (`75 F or so).

I find that I like the 3711 Saison much better than the 3724, though the 3724 still made good beer, just not as good as the 3711. I feel like the 3711 gives a much more "traditional" Saison flavor, with taste notes more similar to what you expect from the style, and it is much easier to handle.


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/cottage-house-saison-254684/
 
I've used 3711 quite a bit: Saisons, Biere de Garde, IPAs, even a Braggot. I like how it attenuates well and leaves dry beer with a nice mouthfeel. I kind of used it as a house strain for half a year of brewing. It is also highly alcohol tolerant (I got over 14% with a mead not listed below).
I've gotten anywhere from 84% attenuation to 97% (half the sugars were honey in the braggot), average 88%. The only one that didn't reach 88% was fermented relatively cold (62-63F), all the other in the 68-72F range. It didn't floculate very well until I started cold conditioning.

OG FG ABV ATT Note
1.051 1.008 5.70% 84% Extract
1.089 1.011 10.20% 88% Partial Mash
1.06 1.007 6.90% 88% Partial Mash
1.06 1.007 6.90% 88% All Grain
1.06 1.004 7.30% 93% All Grain
1.048 1.003 5.90% 94% Extract + Sugar
1.142 1.004 13.40% 97% Half Honey Half extract
 
I just ordered NB's Petite Saison De'Ete kit with the 3711 yeast. Being low flocculation,would Whirlfloc do the job with it? I liked the single tabs I got in the two Morebeer kits that I also ordered a bottle of them. I know they're for proteins & such. But they work so well I figured it can't hurt to try.
 
Whirlfloc is for precipitating out proteins and also starches...I think.

To drop a yeast that doesn't want to floc, you can use gelatin or give it some time in cold storage.
 

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