Odd GFCI Connections?

Hey all-

Got a 30A 2P GFCI to put inside my control box. The load side and neutral make total sense to me, but the line side has these odd connections, almost like "clips"...I assume the breaker is intended to snap into an electrical panel. How do I adapt this to be mounted into a small box, fed by a dryer cord? Here's an EXAMPLE of what I'm talking about; look on the bottom left.....

That's probably going to be a bit of a pain in the butt to adapt. Those clamps are indeed meant to snap down onto the power rails in a breaker box. Each manufacturer has it's own style of doing things, too, so a breaker made by Seimens will not fit into a breaker box made by SquareD.

Crap. What would you recommend? This thing wasn't cheap, even used......

ScubaSteve said:

Crap. What would you recommend? This thing wasn't cheap, even used......

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Yeah, I know those GFCI breakers can get pricey.

Ideally, you want GFI protection at the earliest possible point in your system.
So, I would have suggested that you put a GFI breaker in your house's breaker box and NOT in your control panel.

Do you happen to have a breaker box that matches the breaker you bought? If so, you might be able to put this breaker into the panel in place of the breaker that is currently there.

You can do what I did and put a breaker in the main box made by Square D and then when I got my GFCI off ebay used it was a Simens, so I got a small 15 buck Simens single breaker box and put the 50 amp GFCI in it and ran the output of the breaker in the main box to it and installed it in the wall.

It was still cheaper than buying a new GFCI for my Square D breaker box.

Sense I ran a new circuit and there isnt anything else on it before the GFCI, but yet still a breaker between the GFCI and the main, it's still to code and safe.

shushikiary said:

It was still cheaper than buying a new GFCI for my Square D breaker box.

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I got lucky there. I have a SquareD panel at my house and found a new-in-box 50A 2-pole GFI breaker on ebay for only $35. VERY good deal.

No dice. Got a Eaton/Cutler Hammer panel and a Sq D breaker I wanted it in my box so I could take the GFCI with me everywhere.

So there's no adapter for this type of connection?

What if I get 2 cheaper single pole models and break both legs that way?

ScubaSteve said:

So there's no adapter for this type of connection?

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Not that I am aware of.

ScubaSteve said:

What if I get 2 cheaper single pole models and break both legs that way?

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I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, but the GFI protection has to be implemented with a single breaker that monitors both hots and the neutral in order for it to work, so whatever you are talking about probably isn't a good route to explore.

Walker said:

Not that I am aware of.



I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, but the GFI protection has to be implemented with a single breaker that monitors both hots and the neutral in order for it to work, so whatever you are talking about probably isn't a good route to explore.

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I guess I meant a GFCI for each hot.

A couple more questions:

1. So what kind of GFCI's DON'T have these kind of panel connects?
2. Can I sell my existing GFCI, buy a Cutler Hammer, put it in my panel, and have it protect BOTH my dryer outlet and an outlet in the garage?

ScubaSteve said:

I guess I meant a GFCI for each hot.

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That won't work. GFI works by monitoring all of the current flowing through all of the wires at the same time. Since you are running in 240V, a single GFI circuit has to be watching both hots and the neutral (if you are using the neutral inside your control panel.)

ScubaSteve said:

A couple more questions:

1. So what kind of GFCI's DON'T have these kind of panel connects?
2. Can I sell my existing GFCI, buy a Cutler Hammer, put it in my panel, and have it protect BOTH my dryer outlet and an outlet in the garage?

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1. For 240V GFI protection, I don't know that I have ever seen it offered in any way other than as part of a breaker that is mean to be snapped into a panel. There might be other ways of getting GFI, but I'm betting that anything else that exists is going to be MUCH more expensive than the breaker type of GFI.

2. You can certainly put a cutler hammer GFI breaker in a cutler hammer panel. It will protect whatever wires are connected to the breaker.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean about the 2 outlets, though. How is your house wired up right now? I'm confused. Do you have a breaker in the panel that is feeding your dryer? Where does this outlet in the garage come into play? Is this something you also currently have in your garage? Is it being driven by the same breaker that your dryer is on or is it being driven by a different breaker.

I was hoping to protect the dryer outlet upstairs, but also create an outlet in the garage while I'm at it....and have it protected as well. But, as you mentioned....looks like 1 gfci per circuit.

ScubaSteve said:

I was hoping to protect the dryer outlet upstairs, but also create an outlet in the garage while I'm at it....and have it protected as well. But, as you mentioned....looks like 1 gfci per circuit.

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No... that's not what I said.

If you put a GFI breaker in the panel, the wires coming out of it will be GFI protected. You can run those wires anywhere, even to multiple places.

So, you could come out of the GFI breaker and connect to two outlets. One for the dryer upstairs and one for a new outlet in the garage. Both would be GFI protected. (edit: note that your dryer and brewery together will probably draw more than 30A, so your breaker would trip if both things were running at the same time.)

Extreme example of GFI protecting everything downstream:

At my place, my MAIN panel is outside the house. It has a 50A breaker for the central air unit and another 50A breaker the stove, and then it has a 100A breaker in it that feeds a sub-panel in the garage. Every other circuit in my house is driven from the subpanel, sharing the 100A that the main allows to flow to the subpanel.

I could take out the 100A breaker in the main panel and put in a 100A GFI breaker. That would mean that the wires going to the subpanel (and then on to everything else in my house except that central air and stove) would be GFI protected.

ScubaSteve said:

What if I get 2 cheaper single pole models and break both legs that way?

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Not advisable without the required conversion parts.
The bare minimum is the trip mechanism, small plastic part which connects between the two circuit breakers and the connecting clip for the front levers.
Doing it without the parts will keep one side hot to neutral if only one breaker trips or is turned off.


Cheers,
ClaudiusB

ScubaSteve said:

I guess I meant a GFCI for each hot.

A couple more questions:

1. So what kind of GFCI's DON'T have these kind of panel connects?
2. Can I sell my existing GFCI, buy a Cutler Hammer, put it in my panel, and have it protect BOTH my dryer outlet and an outlet in the garage?

Click to expand...

I found (on ebay) and then sold a 240v, 30a GFCI Cord.
That would get the gfci out of your box, and make it portable. I just took a quick look and did not see them on ebay any longer.

I think it was a power cord for a xerox copier or something...

Are these external inline breakers 4 wire? I think they'd have to be if they include a neutral.....

ScubaSteve said:

Are these external inline breakers 4 wire? I think they'd have to be if they include a neutral.....

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The one I had was.

I just received one of those inline GFCI cables off eBay. I must have gotten the last one. Guess I got lucky.

Though I thought the auction said there were 2 or 3 available... Guess not. Sorry Steve.

PM sent.

PM answered.

What about THIS one? Looks like it's a DIN rail mountable breaker without the funky bussbar connectors. Should be able to be installed inline....but I can't tell the rating. The info makes it look like it's multi-use?

It's a 40amp. It should work. The challenge with a panel mount breaker floating free in 3rd party box is how to connect the line side conductors, insulate those connections, and ultimately secure it to the panel. I wouldn't say it's impossible, just challenging (and for sure the code nazis would be all over that.

Well, this particular multi 9 model would go inside my toolbox controller....properly insulated and most likely epoxied to the floor. Duh, I see now that it's 40A. What I can't figure out...even from the MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS, is, "where's the neutral pigtail?" i.e. how will the GFCI work if it is only hooked to both hots? In the 2P configuration, it looks as if both hots are to be connected to the line in, and in the same way the load outs are connected.....so only 4 holes...not 5? Sorry for my ignorance, wasn't aware of this type of breaker.....

ScubaSteve said:

What about THIS one? Looks like it's a DIN rail mountable breaker without the funky bussbar connectors. Should be able to be installed inline....but I can't tell the rating. The info makes it look like it's multi-use?

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It will work as a 40 A ground fault protection device only, its not a circuit breaker.
There is no thermal or magnetic overcurrent protection.
Enlarge the picture and look at the symbols.


Cheers,
ClaudiusB

Thanks, Claudius....I finally realized I could zoom Ground fault is what's important, as any outlet I plug into will have overcurrent protection at the main panel. As long as I don't plug into a >30A circuit (plug won't fit anyway).....it should be fine.

Anyone want to weigh in on mA sensitivities? Is 30 milli-amperes too high? I thought most GFCI's would trip around 4-6 mA......?

ScubaSteve said:

Thanks, Claudius....I finally realized I could zoom Ground fault is what's important, as any outlet I plug into will have overcurrent protection at the main panel. As long as I don't plug into a >30A circuit (plug won't fit anyway).....it should be fine.

Anyone want to weigh in on mA sensitivities? Is 30 milli-amperes too high? I thought most GFCI's would trip around 4-6 mA......?

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What does the data sheet show for a non IEC panel mount GFI?
The circuit will start to trip at 26mA.

IEC standard
1.1 Electric shock
An electric shock is the pathophysiological effect of an electric current through the human body.
Its passage affects essentially the muscular, circulatory and respiratory functions and sometimes results in serious burns.
The degree of danger for the victim is a function of the magnitude of the current, the parts of the body through which the current passes, and the duration of current flow.
IEC publication 60479-1 updated in 2005 defines four zones of current-magnitude/
time-duration, in each of which the pathophysiological effects are described (see Fig F1). Any person coming into contact with live metal risks an electric shock.
Curve C1 shows that when a current greater than 30 mA passes through a human being from one hand to feet, the person concerned is likely to be killed, unless the current is interrupted in a relatively short time.
The point 500 ms/100 mA close to the curve C1 corresponds to a probability of heart fibrillation of the order of 0.14%.
The protection of persons against electric shock in LV installations must be provided in conformity with appropriate national standards and statutory regulations, codes of practice, official guides and circulars, etc. Relevant IEC standards include: IEC 60364 series, IEC 60479 series, IEC 60755, IEC 61008 series, IEC 61009 series and IEC 60947-2.

If you need the curve I will make a JPEG pic.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

Read this info

GENERAL ELECTRIC
Install GFCI Circuit Breakers on Grounded Power Supply Circuits only
CLASS A
1) To minimize false tripping: Do not connect to swimming pool equipment installed before adoption of the 1965 National Electrical Code.
2) 30 milliampere ground fault equipment protection circuit breakers (yellow TEST button) are NOT intended, and are NOT suitable, for ground fault protection of personnel coming in contact with electrical parts. Use 5 milliampere GFCI circuit breakers for this application.
3) 5 milliampere GFCI circuit breakers (red TEST button) and 30 milliampere ground fault equipment protection circuit breakers (yellow TEST button) are intended for use on 120Vac circuits (1-pole circuit breaker) or 120/240 or 208Y/120Vac (2-pole circuit breaker), 60 Hz circuits onl

Great info! I can be stubborn at times, but in this case there is no room for error or cheaper components! Gonna keep an eye out for a cable.....plus I'll probably get a look in the panel to see exactly what breakers I have......

If you have a Cutler Hammer BR series you can pick up a 50AMP hot tub sub panel, yank the GFCI out of it and put it in your main panel for $80 (Lowes). Since it sounds like you want to keep everything portable why not wire a 50amp breaker from your main panel down to a suitable outlet, put the GFCI hot tub sub panel in your portable control box and build a 6AWG extension cord to connect the two?

I have a Cutler Hammer CH series and the cheapest 50amp GFCI I could find was over $150 so I'm going from my main box to the BR series hot tub sub panel GFCI and from there to another sub panel with a 15amp and two 30amp breakers. I'll then go from the subsub panel to a simple control box. I already have about 20' of 6-3 wire and need to go about 30' to the brew area so this option was the best on my wallet when factoring in all costs.

Unfortunately, I also have the Cutler Hammer CH series in my main panel. I have a $60 gift card for Lowe's, so I'm leaning in the direction of getting a spa panel and a few feet of 6ga wire. I'd like to install a receptacle next to it and keep it putting out 50A in case I get a welder....so then I'll need a 50A range cord and a 30A breaker inside my toolbox control panel.

On another note, anyone seen or use one of THESE DONUT STYLE GFCI'S? Looks like you need a contactor as well.....

Would this work for a GFI Cord? It's only got 3 wires...

wyzazz said:

Would this work for a GFI Cord? It's only got 3 wires...

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Without a neutral, you would not be able to supply 120v in your box, only 240v.

Ed

Wyzazz.....good lookin' out! I saw that one but yeah....only 3 wires. It's amazing how much I've learned about this stuff over the last few days.....I'm an idiot for going out and buying breakers without thinking about how they connect. I didn't even think that they might be proprietary and/or designed to go in a breaker panel.

SO, I'll be returning the breakers meant for inside the box to Lowe's, and I'm selling the GFCI breaker on Ebay for the cheapest shipped price (QO230GFI)

I'll be putting a 50A 2p Cutler Hammer in my panel, and running 6 awg range cord from there to a 50A GFCI Spa Panel. Then I'll go from there to a 50A surface mount range outlet. The control box will now use a 50a cord. That way, I can use the outlet for a welder or my brewery.

As far as inside the control box, I plan on getting some DIN mountable breakers from factorymation.com, to include a 30A breaker right where the 50A cord enters, so I don't melt anything!

Bummer, but I thought I'd give it a shot! Cheers!

Why not just get a 2 slot Cutler-Hammer panel (HD or Lowes should have them) and install your GFCI breaker. Then take some SOOW cable in and out of the panel - Line side goes to the appropriate plug to jack into your house, and the other has the appropriate receptacle to power your rig. Think of it as a really big inline GFCI made of metal.

You could even hard wire it to your panel - Just make the GFCI box as close to the line side as possible. You want to be protected as far upstream as you can be.

ScubaSteve said:

On another note, anyone seen or use one of THESE DONUT STYLE GFCI'S? Looks like you need a contactor as well.....

Click to expand...

I like the idea of using one of these... Looks similar to what Brewmation uses in their control boxes. I like the idea of having the GFCI in the control box (but with easy access to the reset button), rather than using a GFCI breaker in the breaker box. That would allow me to brew in the garage in the summer, but bring it inside for the winter without having to install 2 separate GFCI breakers. I already have a 30A/240 outlet in the garage for my welder, and have a 30A dryer outlet in the basement.

What type of contactor do I need to be able to make that breaker work with 240v/30A? Been googling, but I guess I really don't understand what I'm looking for.

ScubaSteve said:

On another note, anyone seen or use one of THESE DONUT STYLE GFCI'S? Looks like you need a contactor as well.....

Click to expand...

I found these contactors on the Auber site... anyone know if ones of those would work with the GFCI from the link listed above?

Ohio-Ed said:

Without a neutral, you would not be able to supply 120v in your box, only 240v.

Ed

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Would the cable work on one of the old NEMA 10 connectors (2 Hots and a Ground)? I have two of these outlets for the stove and dryer right by where I brew and I am trying to figure out the best way to bump my system up to 220V with GFCI

If you've got the old NEMA 10-30 connectors then depending on who manufactured your main panel you could remove your two current 30amp breakers and install two 30amp gfci's in their place to protect your 220V lines.

If you've got a 110V GFCI in the area for your kitchen you can connect that to your control panel VIA an extension cord to get protected 110V for the controls and pumps.

There isn't anything that says you have to bring power into your controller VIA one cord such as Tiber Brew did https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/electric-brewery-plans-need-help-183775/ it just makes for a cleaner looking install.

thelorax121 said:

Would the cable work on one of the old NEMA 10 connectors (2 Hots and a Ground)? I have two of these outlets for the stove and dryer right by where I brew and I am trying to figure out the best way to bump my system up to 220V with GFCI

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Yep you'd just have to change out the cord end to match.

What are the benefits of using a gfci breaker over the inline cord method? And if I use the inline cord as my power supply, then simply use one of the hots to power all the 110 devices, they would be covered by the gfci as well right?


And thanks for the confirmation wyzazz!