Saison BBD Saison Furtif

Checked the gravity today, day 13, and its at 1.011. The hydro sample was very cloudy still too so still plent of yeast floating, hopefully doing there thing. Smell is thankfully citrusy, I would say sweet orange and lemony like citrus, not grapefruit-ish. Taste is great I can't wait to bottle and get some carbonation in this!!!!! Has the citrus of the smell and the Belgian funk, almost Brett like.

I'm planning for two more weeks in the primary and then if OG and clarity looks good i will bottle. If OG is still above 03 or 04 I might give it an extra week. If OG is good and clarity isn't good then I will transfer to secondary and keep the secondary on the floor in my basement. Floor temp is pretty cold this tome of year probably 50 - 55 ish so it'll be close to cold crashing it. Then I will bottle and wait till week of July 4th.

If this ends up tasting as good as I'm hoping it will become my "haus" brew, with some modifications for each season. Any input for chnges to make this an autum, winter, and spring brew would be greatly appreciated.

I'll update again once its bottled and carbed.

At day 21 now and FG has been at 1.005 for two days now. I think I'm going to bottle in the next couple days. That'll give it 4 weeks in the bottle before July 4th weekend!!!

4 weeks will be plenty of time for carbing and a small amount of conditioning time.

Any thoughts? I'm just questioning whether I should give it another week before bottling. I like the dryness where it's at right now. I'm not a big fan of "bone" dry beers, or wines for that matter.

bolus14 said:

At day 21 now and FG has been at 1.005 for two days now. I think I'm going to bottle in the next couple days. That'll give it 4 weeks in the bottle before July 4th weekend!!!

4 weeks will be plenty of time for carbing and a small amount of conditioning time.

Any thoughts? I'm just questioning whether I should give it another week before bottling. I like the dryness where it's at right now. I'm not a big fan of "bone" dry beers, or wines for that matter.

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Well, bottling it isn't going to stop that. If the yeast is going to take it down further it's going to do it in whether it's in the carboy or in the bottle. It's close enough that you're not going to get bottle bombs or anything though. They just might get a little dryer and fizzier as time goes by.

Might be a little young after just a month in the bottle. Drinkable, but it won't be at it's best until sometime in August, I'd say.

Thanks for the info, after my last post I thought more about it and figured the yeast would still keep bringing it down in the bottle. If it ends up drier the taste will still be excellent from what i can tell right now. The hydro sample was still pretty cloudy, should it be at this point?

What if I dropped the temp of the fermenter down to 55 - 60 for a week. Is it possible that would get the yeast to drop out do to the cooler temp?

I was afraid it would be a little green for July 4th. I'm only planning to break out maybe 12 bottles for then, might not need that many as Im planning to open a 7 month old Sam Adams Griffins Bow and either a 7 month old Ommegang Three Philosophers or Art of Darkness.

bolus14 said:

Thanks for the info, after my last post I thought more about it and figured the yeast would still keep bringing it down in the bottle. If it ends up drier the taste will still be excellent from what i can tell right now. The hydro sample was still pretty cloudy, should it be at this point?

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The wheat will make it a bit cloudy. That's just how the beer is.

Ok. Most of the commercials saisons I've had have been pretty clear, that's why I was asking. Makes sense that the wheat will make it cloudy.

After some thought on "cold crashing" before bottlong, I don't think it'll keep the FG where its at. Once I bottle and bring the temps up to mid 70's to carb them the yeast would end up drying it out in the bottle.

Bottled 'er up tonight and at this point WOW!!!! Hydro has been 1.002 for two days so it can't drop much more in the bottle, if it does at all.
It still is maintaining the citrus and doesn't seem to be "drying out." We'll see if the carbonation makes it feel drier, but i really hope not.

I picked up a couple of saisons to compare it too, and because I've just been wanting to drink the style for a while now. I got Victory Swing and Ommegang Hennepin. I've had Hennepin many times before, many say it's a good one to compare others to. Victory Swing is extremely dry in the finish, lacks much Belgian characterstics, and just lacks anything that would want me to buy it again. I felt the same about their Tripel so to me the Belgian stuff just isn't their thing. Prima Pils is a staple for Pilsner and their Stout isn't bad at all either, their Belgians are just lacking and if I had to guess they're not using Belgian yeast.

At this point unless this changes drastically with carbonation and time, I think it may be a favorite of mine.

bolus14 said:

At this point unless this changes drastically with carbonation and time, I think it may be a favorite of mine.

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It is mine. My absolute favorite beer, period, homebrew or commercial.

Ok criticize me all you want but after a week in the bottle and 24 hrs in the fridge I popped one open.

Going to be tough to not open these before our July 4th party. Its still a little hot/green but still better than all the commercial saisons I've tried. I think the ABV will definitely sneak up on anybody that doesn't know this is at or just over 8%. The file with my notes got corrupted so I can't look up what my OG was.

I'd like to try this recipe with some rye for the fall or possibly put it in the secondary with some cinnamon and nutmeg. I just wonder if the citrus notes and those spices will mesh well, my initially thoughts are they won't so...

Cat thanks a ton for this recipe, will definitely brew again, next time will be AG since I just bought equipment to do BIAB.

Brewed the extract version last night and hit 1.060. I probably should have done a better job with steeping to get more sugars but it is what it is now. I followed the recipe to the T and it will be fermenting in an 80 to 85 degree room. Looking forward to the finished product in a couple months!
One question: Do I keep secondary temps in the 80s or do I take it down to 65-70? Thanks for the great recipe!

I don't secondary at all... ENJOY!

As I'm sitting drinking an Allagash Tripel I can't help but taste a lot of similarities. That's a hell of a complement on this one, great recipe.

My sister in law came to visit a few weeks ago and couldn't get enough. Kept asking if I minded if she had more. Sent a six pack with her since that put her close to the weight limit on her luggage and gave her the recipe as well, since her and my brother do some home brewing.

Brand new here. This is my second partial mash, and my fifth brew altogether. Brewed this recipe last night. A couple issues I could use some advice on. First I got DME instead of LME, I believe I converted wrong. I used 4#, I think I was supposed to use 3.6. So I'm wondering if I should use less sugar into the primary when it comes time, and if so, how much less. On that note, I got corn sugar, recipe calls for table sugar. Should that matter? OG was 1.072. Fermentation is going strong around 80F

Mwhy71 said:

Brand new here. This is my second partial mash, and my fifth brew altogether. Brewed this recipe last night. A couple issues I could use some advice on. First I got DME instead of LME, I believe I converted wrong. I used 4#, I think I was supposed to use 3.6. So I'm wondering if I should use less sugar into the primary when it comes time, and if so, how much less. On that note, I got corn sugar, recipe calls for table sugar. Should that matter? OG was 1.072. Fermentation is going strong around 80F

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Looks like you used a little bit more DME than you should, but not enough to really make much of an impact. I'd stick wit the recipe for the rest.

I used table sugar because it works just fine with the recipe and is cheaper. If you already got corn sugar than it's up to you if you want to go ahead and use that or save it for bottling future batches.

Stick to the script, heard that. Thanks. Can't wait to get this in my neck.

So, about 2 months after my first sample and this is definitely better. The "funkiness" from the yeast has mellowed and now isn't as upfront as it was before.
To me this is a very solid base Saison. My pipeline has gotten pretty filled up and my storage space is limited. But, next year I'm thinking of trying to start early in the year and make a fall and winter(dark) saison using this recipe as the base. Obviously the malts will have to change some to entertain that, but I am going to attempt to stick as close as I can to this as possible.

bolus14 said:

So, about 2 months after my first sample and this is definitely better. The "funkiness" from the yeast has mellowed and now isn't as upfront as it was before.
To me this is a very solid base Saison. My pipeline has gotten pretty filled up and my storage space is limited. But, next year I'm thinking of trying to start early in the year and make a fall and winter(dark) saison using this recipe as the base. Obviously the malts will have to change some to entertain that, but I am going to attempt to stick as close as I can to this as possible.

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I've been thinking about something similar. Move the grain bill a bit towards a roasty stout and then an ipa hop schedule. Then ferment it with the 3711.

I'm working on the second batch of this, its been in primary for three weeks now. The first one turned out great, thanks, awesome recipe. Of course my lhbs doesn't carry wyeast, so i couldn't use the 3711, I had to settle for wlp 565. As expected, it has stalled short of where i'd like it. I'm considering pitching the wlp 670, american farmhouse to get it going again. I'm wondering if anyone thinks this yeast would complement this recipe, and also, if I should pitch into the primary, or rack it into a secondary and then pitch? Also, I have ordered the ingredients for this recipe including the 3711 from NB, gonna brew it again. Don't want to run out, I could drink this all year round.

What ahs it stalled at? If there isn't much sugar left I would save the cash and get some S-04 or S-05, you won't get much yeast character if there isn't that much sugar left for it and you're just trying to get it a little drier and a few more ABV points. If there's a considerable about of gravity left and you can raise the temp to upper 70's or low 80's that may work to get past the stall, you shouldn't get any bad esters at this point. I wouldn't bother transferring to secondary if you end up pitching more yeast, then again I don't secondary at all unless I'm adding oak, fruit, etc.

WLP670 has Brett in it, not sure if you want that or not. If you do be sure you're using glass as you primary or transfer to a secondary glass carboy.

I used WLP566, has great Saison character and doesn't have the stall out problem that 565 has. I would personally plan for it to age for at least a few months if you use 566 though. Early on the Belgian funkiness is pretty present, I don't mind it but some find it off putting.

OG 1.062, dropped to 1.022, after cane sugar addition 1.032. now stuck at 1.015. i guess ill try and warm it up and wait it out. I thought the 670 with some brett in it would give it some nice funk. Thanks

If you're looking for Brett funkiness I think this recipe will lend itself very well to it. I think it stands very well on its own others that have tasted mine love it just as the OG recipe is.

I'm thinking of adding some orange or lemon zest or coriander for a more spring/summer like saison this year. Then possible add some rye, munich or vienna, or combination of sorts for a more fall like saison. And, since dark saisons seem to be coming around, adding some chocolate or black barley for some roastiness would work well for the winter.

Given that you're at 1.015 if you want to add Brett throw the 670 in now and save yourself having to mess with the temps.

If anyone is on the fence about making this beer, and you've managed to read all the way to page 35 of the forum without making up your mind, close your browser and go make this damn beer. It's delicious.

I'm getting ready to try my hand at the partial mash technique (all extract until now) and I'm having some difficulties reconciling the suggested recipe in this thread with what Beersmith is telling me.

This is what I've had to put into Beersmith to get the OG shown by the OP:
Mash at 1.25qt/lb:
3lbs 14.8oz Pilsner (2 row) German (2 SRM)
1lbs 9.4oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM)
12oz Wheat Malt, German (2.0 SRM)

Mash for 60 mins at 152F and batch sparge with 3 steps (Beersmith suggestion) up to full boil volume for a batch size of 5.25 gallons. I've entered an assumed brewhouse efficiency of 72%.

Then the extract and sugar:
3lbs 8.0oz light dry extract (dry because I have trouble getting specific amounts of liquid, but set to 33.33% of the total grain bill)
11.6oz table sugar

The weights are all wonky because I've converted from the metric system (live in EU), but it's clear that the grain bill is quite a bit smaller than the real recipe.

Does anyone have any clues as to why this might be the case? I've messed with mash time, boil time, late vs. early addition of extract and sugar but if I get anywhere near the suggested grain bill I'm making a beer of almost 10% ABV... I suspect it has something to do with my equipment settings but I honestly don't know enough about non-extract brewing to pinpoint the issue.

Any suggestions appreciated

Not sure what you're doing to change it. The original recipe I posted is a partial mash recipe. No need to reduce anything.

Read this whole thread, and can't wait to try this!! Thanks Cat and others who adapted to Extract batch. Starting this next Saturday, just picked up following ingredients:

Wyeast 3711 (seems like most robust yeast for this style)

6lbs Pilsen DME (half at 60, half at 15 min)
1lb Bavarian Wheat DME (15 min)
1 lb Crystal 20L (steep)
1/3 lb Crystal 80L (steep)
1oz Perle 5.6AA (60 min)
0.5oz Czech Saaz (20min)
1oz Hersbrucker 2.0 AA (10 min)
Whirlfloc Tablet (15 min)
1 lb Sugar (dissolved in water, poured in without stirring after krausen starts to drop)
Fermenting at ambient house temps (73-75)

Per the "saison" guy at LHBS, once fermentation starts, doing open fermentation for 3 days by placing lid on bucket without snapping into place, to create even MORE easters. Anyone else tried this?

Question for those doing extract batches, how long and at what temp do you steep your crystal malts?
I was planning to do 20 min at 155, but am open to suggestions

Doing this without any weird fruit additions or anything this time, but this style seems to lend itself to experimentation well. Would like to add white grape juice and more IPA-like hop schedule in a future batch.

Texconsinite said:

Wyeast 3711 (seems like most robust yeast for this style)

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It's a monster. I wouldn't use any other.

Texconsinite said:

Per the "saison" guy at LHBS, once fermentation starts, doing open fermentation for 3 days by placing lid on bucket without snapping into place, to create even MORE easters. Anyone else tried this?

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Can't see how this would increase esters. That's more a function of temperature. Though, this would keep the vigorous ferment from blowing the lid off on it's own.

Texconsinite said:

Doing this without any weird fruit additions or anything this time, but this style seems to lend itself to experimentation well. Would like to add white grape juice and more IPA-like hop schedule in a future batch.

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I've wanted to do this with a bunch of dark malts. Stout-saison hybrid with the 3711 yeast... mmmm...

Alright, you crazies made me do it!!

Stared this batch on Sunday.

1 lb crystal 20L
1/3 lb crystal 80L
Steeped for 30 min at 165

6 lbs Pilsen light DME 1/2 @ 60, 20min
1 lb wheat DME @ 60
1 oz centennial @ 60
.5 oz saaz @ 20
Whirlfloc tab @ 15min
.5 saaz @ 10 min
1oz hersbrucker @ 10min
2 tsp Bruvigor @flameout
Wyeast 3711
1 lb cane sugar (few days in)

Filled to 5.5 gallons Pitched @ 75
OG 1.067

Tuesday- starting to get a little worried. put one of those stick-on thermometers on outside if my plastic fermenter and still not sure it's accurate. Apt temp is 74, and wine clarifying next to it on top of fridge is at 71-73, but this baby went up to 81 yesterday, and sitting at 79 today, is it normal to have a batch so high above ambient?
I hope the temp means its going, but still no bubbles in blow-off tube yet after 48hrs. However, looks like there's a krausen forming on top, so hoping its just a matter if time. Right?

I plan to add 1lb of cane sugar once this gets going, which should add .008 to SG? So OG of 1.075, I'm hoping it goes down to 1.004, gonna give it however long it takes, but figuring on at least 4 weeks.






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Fermentation is an exothermic process. The more vigorous the ferment, the warmer it can get.

Help! Wort temp stayed at 79, but Still no bubbles after 4 days, added 1 tsp yeast nutrient. 4 more days, still nothing. Bought another pack of 3711, let this one activate for 24 hrs, then pitched on tuesday. Temp went back to 79 Wednesday, now down to 77. Still not a single bubble in airlock. What is going on, ive never had this happen before.

take a gravity reading. i've had a couple of batches do this to me but they were fermenting just fine and tasted just as good as any others. if no gravity change, then there's a different issue for sure.

Thanks.


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Ok, in spite of seeing NO bubbles for two weeks, my Saison went from 1.065 to 1.006!!! Holy cow. I didnt even add sugar to this batch like i planned, but 7.9% is not too shabby. Going to let it sit in secondary for another few weeks and continue to ferment/age.

3711 is a beast! Ive never seen a layer of trub this thick on the bottom of a primary. Gravity reading tasted good, smooth and light with hops present but not overwhelming. I like where this is going! Im surprised how quick it went so low, would 2 weeks in secondary be enough at this point, or should i let it go 4+?

Looking ahead to my next batch of this, has anyone considered making a six gallon batch of this and splitting into 3 two gallon fermenters with different spice additions?

I think 2 weeks will be plenty. Its like most Belgians though, it'll get better and better the longer you age it. I have a couple bottles left from last year when I made it and just had one last week. While the changes are drastic it has become very smooth especially given the amount of carbonation.

Just brewed this beer last Sunday and there's plenty of bubbling going on in the fermentation chamber!

One question: This is only my second partial mash and I'm not yet skilled at getting the temps absolutely right. Much of the 75 minute mash was spent at temps in the 152-154 range, rather than the 150 or under that is suggested. Based on what I've read, this might produce a fuller bodied and slightly sweeter end product. Is that right? If that's the case, then should I perhaps expect that the 3711 will not bring this all the way down to 1.00x and might end up in at 1.01 or above?

bpm07 said:

Just brewed this beer last Sunday and there's plenty of bubbling going on in the fermentation chamber!

One question: This is only my second partial mash and I'm not yet skilled at getting the temps absolutely right. Much of the 75 minute mash was spent at temps in the 152-154 range, rather than the 150 or under that is suggested. Based on what I've read, this might produce a fuller bodied and slightly sweeter end product. Is that right? If that's the case, then should I perhaps expect that the 3711 will not bring this all the way down to 1.00x and might end up in at 1.01 or above?

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Yup, on all counts. It might not be quite as crisp, but it should still be tasty nonetheless.

Gonna brew this next week, Could I use Turbinado sugar in place of table sugar? Would it lend a different flavor profile?

I don't see any reason why turbinado wouldn't work. I don't think you'll get any extra flavor from it though. Saison yeast strains will over power the minimal taste difference you'd gain between table sugar and turbinado.

also what is the purpose of adding the sugar after fermentation? Would it do the same thing if I added at the end of the boil?

Adding it after ensures the yeast don't get lazy and eat the simple sugar first. I have yet to have a problem adding it in the boil and some prefer trying to stress saison strains to get them to throw off more esters.

Split the batch and in one add sugar when you pitch the yeast and the other add it after a few days. You may want to soak the sugar in vodka in the one being pitched with the yeast to ensure its sanitized.

ok so maybe one of you can help me here. I brewed this on tuesday and took a pre boil SG reading to see how my mash went, i got a reading of 1.020 @165 degrees, which i believe temperature corrects out to 1.043??? boiled for the hour, added my LME(scaled it back to 2 pounds) with ten minutes to go, chilled and poured 4 gallons into the fermentor. topped with a gallon of water to make 5 Gals. took a Hydro reading and got 1.040?! is my Hydrometer jacked from the hot wort before or did I f up somewhere?