First wine kits - various questions

Sorry in advance for the ridiculous length of this! If you want to just tackle a single paragraph instead of the whole post, I totally understand.

Anyways, I have a lot of experience making beer, but I've never made a wine (unless you count Edwort's apfelwein). I decided to just dive in headfirst while my electric brewery is being built, and ordered 3 high-end wine kits, not seeing the point in going with the cheaper stuff after spending so much time and money (and space!) to produce the wine. The three kits I ordered are all from RJ Spagnols brands, as my LHBS doesn't carry Winexpert or Cellar Craft, and their kit prices are damn good (considerably better than even any stores I've seen in the US, which is completely opposite the case for everything else they sell... strange, but I can't complain!). I pick these up on Tuesday:

(En Primeur) Italian Amarone
(Cellar Classic Winery Series) California Old Vine Zinfandel
(Cellar Classic) German Gewürztraminer

When I pick them up, I want to buy some fermenting vessels for them... I'm thinking carboys or better bottles (any problem with BBs?). What size vessels will I need for these? I often hear people start in a 6.5gal carboy (is 6gal okay?) and secondary in a 5gal... is that what I should plan on doing with these kits? I have no idea how much wine they're supposed to produce - the only volume I saw labeled for them is the volume of the concentrate they provide, and as such I'd guess bigger is better - but my best guess would be 23L. Is that correct? And while I'm there, should I pick up any additional ingredients?

To figure out how many vessels of each type I need, I also need to know the timelines for these wines. ie, how long should each of those styles stay in the primary? And then how long after that should they stay in the secondary? Will I need to rack it beyond a second (eg tertiary, quaternary, etc)? And just so I have an idea, how long would you recommend I let each style take (fermentation AND aging) for a good balance between timeliness and quality?

Also, is agitation (like a paint stirrer or wine whip on a drill) more than adequate for degassing, or are those vacuum degassers noticeably better?

And just a couple more questions I haven't come across I might as well ask now, based on my experience with beer. For instance, temperature control is *EVERYTHING* when making beer, but how critical is it for wine? I'd rather not have to control the temperature, but if the lack of temp control can ruin wine like it does beer, I'd do it anyways. Should I oxygenate the must like I would oxygenate beer wort? Is some sort of yeast starter recommended? And lastly, beer kit instructions are notoriously poor... is the same true of wine kits, and if so, how should I proceed with these kits in particular?

Sorry again for such an onslaught of questions, but I figured that a million questions in a single thread is probably better than a single question in a million threads, and if you think this took a long time to read, consider that this was all typed on my phone! I am very comfortable with most of the process, so I would MUCH rather do things the BETTER way than the simpler and easier way that's often suggested to beginners (if it makes a real difference in the finished product, of course), so please, none of that "just follow the included directions for the first few times" nonsense... if I'm going to spend the money and wait such a long time to drink the wine, I want to make it the best I possibly can.

Anyways, thanks for taking the time to read and (hopefully) answer this. And if anyone has any more tips for an experienced brewer just getting into wine making - particularly the things that are different from the beer-making process, or what a brewer might otherwise assume - they would be much appreciated!

Degassing........If you have the time, patience, and carboy space the wine will degas naturally over many months in bulk storage. Most of us don't want our carboys tied up that long so we degas.

You can make a degasser with a plastic coat hanger with a crook on the end. I have one of the commercially made ones. I found this process slow and tedious as I was afraid a vigorous degassing would oxygenate the wine too much. I bought a medical vacuum pump on ebay for $75 shipped to my door. It has a built in gauge and regulator. It works fantastic. I have it set up so I can also use the vacuum to rack from carboy to carboy.

I've not made any kit wines so I have no input for you there.

If you can keep the ambient temp around 70 or below you should be fine w/o temp controller. I imagine in Toronto your tap water is fairly cool so just sitting your fermenter in a sink full of cool water would do a pretty good job.

You should be fine with ambient temps in your house. Many wine yeasts are more forgiving than ale yeasts.

As far as time goes some kits require more time to make than others. In general you will be looking at about 1-2 months of time from mix to bottle. (just following instructions)

As far as vessels I typically do a bucket for primary and then 6gal glass for secondary. Most kits are 6 gallon (except ports and icewine) that I have seen.

Follow the instructions and you will be fine. I would deviate on the Gewürztraminer as they may give you a chemical to add to slow the formation of wine diamonds. I cant remember if that type produces them or not. If you chill the whole batch for a few weeks most of what will form will form in that time period. (assuming you care about them)


As far as extra things to get I would say to decide on how you want to cork/cap things. You can go screw top, zork, cork, or some other thing. I zork a few of most batches as they dont require anything to open later. It is personal preference though. I hope this helps!

Oh I have a vacuum pump as well and it is pretty nice. I got mine on amazon.

A bucket for primary is fine- you'll need a 6 gallon carboy for secondary. I use my same ale pail and bottling bucket for wines and beers. Better bottles are great! Those kits are produce 6 gallons of wine- and almost all do.

It's so counter to beer kits, so I know you'll find this hard to believe- but following the directions 100% for wine kits is recommended. Even I follow the directions (um, more or less) because the kits are that solid.

Thanks for the help. I've had bad luck with buckets and infections so I'm not sure I want to use them. All my previous "good" buckets got messed up so I think I'll just ditch them altogether. I plan on getting a few conicals eventually, but I've got more to be done on my eHERMS, ferm chamber/workbench, and keezer before I can spend cash on that. Just dropped almost $3500 in the past week on Blichmanns and other stainless stuff (commercial sink and range hood, etc)! What can I say, I'm an equipment geek.

As for the kit instructions... I'll take your word for it But... is wine must supposed to be aerated before pitching?

emjay said:

As for the kit instructions... I'll take your word for it But... is wine must supposed to be aerated before pitching?

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Yup wine, ciders, and especially meads are all well aerated pre fermentation and
most aerate mead until 1/3 sugar break.

i've made a couple kits and i haven't bothered to aerate.. i do use a bucket for the primary then my 6.5gallon BB for secondary.. following the directions is key like yooper said.. you don't have to make a starter for the yeast as i'm assuming it came with some dried yeast.. i would strongly suggest getting a floor corker, especially since you'll have 90 bottles to cork.. once you use one you'll never want to attempt anything else.. Floor Corker

Yes, you aerate. But an easy way to do it is to just pour in the water from a pitcher into the must (since you add some water to get to the 6 gallon level) and then stir it up a bit with a sanitized spoon. No extra aeration is required.

I understand the bad luck with buckets, and for most wine kits you'll be ok with a 6.5 gallon carboy for primary. But I still always use a bucket since you'll be pouring in oak dust and stuff. That's ok with a funnel and carboy, but sometimes you're adding packs of grape skins and such in primary and it'd be more than a huge pain to put them in and remove them plus then you'd have no headspace. I wouldn't write off buckets just yet!

ah yeah.. i guess me using my hand sprayer from my kitchen faucet counts as aeration.. i use an oxygen tank and stone with my beer so i usually only call that "aeration"

I tried a whip to degass, and then a hand pump, and finally ended up with a vacuum pump..... and wish I had done that from the beginning. The Vacuum pump made my kit wines come out so much better than any of the previous methods.

I did this one http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0064C720O/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 a couple years ago and it was sooooo easy compared to brewing beer. I used a bucket for the primary when I mixed and pitched. Transferred 3 times along with degassing with a pvc pipe. Bottled, let stand up for a few days, added shrink wrap and forget about it. One thing that I wasn't too sure on was the final transfer and top off. Some people were adding water, marbles and other things to get rid of the head space. I wasn't too sure so I added a couple bottles of a cheap cab. Going on 3 years and only a 6 bottles left.

Hi emjay, welcome to the fun (and easy) world of wine making. Where the hardest part is waiting!

Here are a few tips I've picked up over the years.

First, I always try to use glass. Its better for bulk aging. From what I understand plastic is somewhat permeable. Additionally creating a vacuum to degas in a better bottle can lead to a big mess. You can use a whip or a spoon to stir in a bb but the plastic scratches so easily. You may end up with the same problem as your buckets.

Next, try to minimize head space. Some are more anal about this than others. I worry more about this with reds than whites. There is a product out there called private preserve. It is inert gases that pushes out oxygen and creates a gas barrier over the wine. This comes in handy for bigger carboys. It may seem gimmicky but theoretically it should work. I never top up after primary fermentation is complete. You could do a similar varietal of wine but that seems like cheating to me(no offense!). Sanitized marbles are a good option but on such a large batch that's an ass load of marbles. Thats better left for one gallon batches.

Next, Upgrade that oak! Get some good oak spirals or cubes. That oak dust is crap! I don't know why they still put them in expensive kits. Make sure you match up the proper toast with the varietal. You don't want to over toast a Pinot or under toast your old vine zin.

As for aerating. I really don't bother aerating. Correct me if I'm wrong! The reason you do this in beer is bc boiling depletes the free o2 in the wort. Since there is no boiling in wine no need to aerate. It probably won't hurt to aerate but to me pouring the juice in followed by pouring the water does enough aeration. I've never had any issues. To ensure a good healthy fermentation a little energizer or nutrient wouldn't hurt.

If you cant bulk age get a break bleed kit to degas your wine. I got mine a harbor freight for about $7. It came with an attachment that fit my bung perfectly. Do not, I repeat, do not use this with a better bottle! I'd be careful not to over do it with glass either.

Lastly my biggest piece of advice. Don't over think it! You can dwell on one step for days but what you do in the next step can completely negate everything you just tried to prevent. Best thing to do is have fun and learn from prior experiences.

Anyway, i think i got most of your questions. I know thats a lot of info. Hope it helps.

Oh, I forgot about temperature. During primary and secondary you will be fine at the lower end of 70. Aging is where you want a little more temp control. Different chemical reactions happen as the wine ages. The hotter the temp the faster and more pronounced they are. On the other hand if it's too cold they may not happen at all. If I remember properly 55-60 is best for long term aging (10+ years). For 1-5 years you should be fine at 70 or so. Just avoid temp spikes.

Rack every four-five weeks till crystal clear. With kits the bentinite and chitosan will help it clear in about a month of secondary. If you're willing to bulk age toss the finings and let it clear naturally. Plan on it taking several months.

You will have 6 gallons of wine per kit about 30 bottles with good racking. So stock up on bottles!

Age at least 6 months for whites a year for reds. Of course sample a few between now and then. The longer the better.

Beer_me_plz said:

Next, Upgrade that oak! Get some good oak spirals or cubes. That oak dust is crap! I don't know why they still put them in expensive kits. Make sure you match up the proper toast with the varietal. You don't want to over toast a Pinot or under toast your old vine zin.

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I'd love to use spirals, as I know oak dust (and oak chips, for that matter) just isn't the same from my brewing experience.

Problem is that I'm not just a wine noob when it comes to making it, but drinking as well. I know some varieties I like (pinot noir, zinfandel, syrah, grenache), and some I don't really care for (cabernet sauvignon, merlot), but that's about it. However, I'm finding I really enjoy wine and sometimes would even prefer it to beer, so I'd love to bring my expertise on it up to the level it is with beer. But as it stands, I have NO idea what level of toast is appropriate for a given style, nor even HOW MUCH to use, so it would be a bit difficult to match up.

Beer_me_plz said:

As for aerating. I really don't bother aerating. Correct me if I'm wrong! The reason you do this in beer is bc boiling depletes the free o2 in the wort.

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Heh, that is largely true, and I definitely should have thought of that. However, optimal concentrations of O2 are usually larger than can even be achieved with air, and this is even more true for beers with ABVs similar to wine! I'm guessing a *bit* of O2 couldn't hurt, and it's not exactly a hassle for me.

And... now that I think of it, I'll probably be using dry yeast anyways, which typically doesn't require oxygenation. I'll still probably hit it with a bit though. And speaking of which... any idea what specific yeasts are included in each of the kits I got, or at least how I can find out? I haven't actually picked up my kits yet and I would really prefer to pick up some fresher, refrigerated yeast from my LHBS while I'm there... In brewing, it's generally a good idea to do this and skip the included yeast. I imagine it's a bit better - maybe even a lot better - with wine kits, but why cheap out on a dollar or two for fresher, better-handled yeast when I've shelled out for ultra-premium/premium kits?

Beer_me_plz said:

Oh, I forgot about temperature. During primary and secondary you will be fine at the lower end of 70. Aging is where you want a little more temp control.

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Interesting. Somewhat the opposite for beer. Not saying aging (especially LONG aging) can't benefit from temp control, but the temperature during primary fermentation has an enormous effect on the character of the beer... even just a degree or two can make a significant difference.

But tell me... will temp control during primary benefit my wine at all? And if so, what's the optimal temp for each style (or if that's too difficult to answer, for reds and for whites)?

emjay said:

I have NO idea what level of toast is appropriate for a given style, nor even HOW MUCH to use, so it would be a bit difficult to match up.

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As with anything sample as you go. There are no hard set rules as to how much oak. The good thing about spirals is you can remove them quite easily as opposed to chips or dust. I sanitize a piece of fishing line and just dangle the spiral in the wine. As for toast, go by what you like. If you really like the oak character go with the heavy toast if not go medium or even light. Once you hit the desired level simply pull it out. You will also minimize the amount of sediment left in the wine. If that is a concern for you.

emjay said:

Heh, that is largely true, and I definitely should have thought of that. However, optimal concentrations of O2 are usually larger than can even be achieved with air, and this is even more true for beers with ABVs similar to wine! I'm guessing a *bit* of O2 couldn't hurt, and it's not exactly a hassle for me.

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I actually started another kit last night. I didn't really think about it but after topping up i do give it a good stir to mix well and get an accurate gravity reading. I guess that counts as aerating too!

emjay said:

But tell me... will temp control during primary benefit my wine at all? And if so, what's the optimal temp for each style (or if that's too difficult to answer, for reds and for whites)?

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I know what you're thinking. This is not like lager temps compared to ale temps. The only thing yeast should do for your wine is turn it into alcohol. Settling out and aging will remove all of the typical yeasty character.

This is a bit of a cop out but the instructions will give you a general idea about whats temperatures and when. It will probably have you start higher for primary, lower for secondary, and then even lower for aging.

If your not sure you like the instructions try research the different temps wineries use for a particular style. If you really want to get crazy look in to humidity control. For me I pay closer attention to serving temps more than anything. Unless I hide it wine doesn't usually last long enough around my house to worry about aging temps.

If you can, get a small wine fridge and try aging a few bottles at the lower temps. See if you can taste the differences after 6 months then a year. Whites being more delicate will probably taste a good bit different whereas the red may not be different at all. It's all about trying different things.

Actually, I have a stirplate capable of stirring full carboys... I wonder if that would adequately keep gas out and not require a vacuum pump.

Not familiar with how stir plates work. It just needs to create enough agitation to drive the co2 out of solution, and not aggressive enough to aerate.

Are Better Bottles good for long-term aging? I know they claim they're impermeable, but I find that a tad dubious... I'm wondering if somebody has actual experience bulk aging in one for several years.

Their spigots seem better and more sanitary than the typical bottling bucket ones, so I'm also wondering if there's any reason I shouldn't get ported ones to just simplify the racking process?

emjay said:

Are Better Bottles good for long-term aging? I know they claim they're impermeable, but I find that a tad dubious... I'm wondering if somebody has actual experience bulk aging in one for several years.

Their spigots seem better and more sanitary than the typical bottling bucket ones, so I'm also wondering if there's any reason I shouldn't get ported ones to just simplify the racking process?

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I have several BBs, and they seem fine for aging. EXCEPT for one thing- the carboy cap seems to fit well, so I used one for about 6 months. Even topped up the wine seemed oxidized while the carboy next to it with a bung and airlock was perfect. It turns out that the carboy cap seemed tight but there was a gap on the bottom. Maybe a tight rubber band would have helped, but I never tried it again after that. The size #10 bungs fit the BB fine and I haven't had any noticeable oxidation from using the BB for aging.

I only have one ported BB and to be honest, I dislike it. Without a "dry lock" and a way to push the wine, it's SLOW to transfer with the spigot. I mean slow, like barely a trickle. It's good in theory, but in practice I used it once about 6 years ago. Racking is so quick and easy for winemakers that it's just more efficiency to rack anyway.

K, thanks. And the carboy cap is not an issue as I don't use them.

i've used BBs as well for bulk aging.. i always us the universal drilled stopper and a 3 piece airlock and it seems to be perfect for any length of time.. i exclusively use BBs for wine and beer and haven't had any problems with them..