Here's something someone needs to invent...

A little item which floats in a bucket or carboy and transmits temperature and SG of the fermenting wort through a wire to an extrenal digital monitor.

You'd have to have some sort of special bung that the wire passed through with a hole for an airlock.

Wouldn't that be cool? Plus you could have an option for this thing to also be a thermostat for controlling heating and/or cooling. It could tell you the change in SG over the last 24 hours, maybe--making it very obvious whether a beer is still fermenting.

Any ambitious inventers out there?

cweston said:

A little item which floats in a bucket or carboy and transmits temperature and SG of the fermenting wort through a wire to an extrenal digital monitor.

You'd have to have some sort of special bung that the wire passed through with a hole for an airlock.

Wouldn't that be cool? Plus you could have an option for this thing to also be a thermostat for controlling heating and/or cooling. It could tell you the change in SG over the last 24 hours, maybe--making it very obvious whether a beer is still fermenting.

Any ambitious inventers out there?

Click to expand...

Have it transmit wirelessly to a computer that records the info into a data file, complete with RSS feeds so it can be monitored via the web. One up it even more and have it attract large yeast particles to aid in removing them during the settling process.

hmm interesting i do have a remote digital temp sensor/alarm in my hlt that alarms when i reach desired strike water temps.

Cheesefood said:

Have it transmit wirelessly to a computer that records the info into a data file, complete with RSS feeds so it can be monitored via the web. One up it even more and have it attract large yeast particles to aid in removing them during the settling process.

Click to expand...

Wait a second!! This would be quite dangerous. If I could monitor my fermenting ales at work via the web, . . . . I would never get any work done. I would be sitting in front of a computer monitor, watching for temp changes . . . much like I sit and watch the airlock bubbling

I highly recommend against this invention.


















But I'll buy it when it hits the market. . . .

I think someone needs to invent a method to move the arms in Cheesefood's avatar!!!

I do like the wireless idea, though!

Lil' Sparky said:

I think someone needs to invent a method to move the arms in Cheesefood's avatar!!!

Click to expand...

I 2nd that!!!!!!!

This is an interesting idea.

I don't think that wireless (ie the whole device inside the carboy) would work. Any device large enough to hold batteries (enough for transmission), the components for reading sg and temp and the floatation device would probably be too large to fit through the neck. A simple sensor (2 really) in the carboy with a wire coming out between the air-lock and the stopper seems to be a much better idea. Not only would floatation not be required (it would be suspended from the top), but it would be easy to remove, and it could even be plugged in for power.

I'm all for either a bluetooth or RF connection to transmit to a computer so that data could be recorded (graphs, trends etc).

This sounds like a neat side project. The thermometer could be made with a simple thermistor, and converted to temperature by the computer, but I don't know what kind of devices there are for reading SG. My brew-partnet is doing work on RFIDs (I think) for his masters, so he might be able to help me with the transmitting part. If you don't mind me stealing your idea, I would like to reasearch this. I'm a computer engineer (or at least I will be in December) so I would LOVE to do the software side of this (reciever, database backend, etc).

EDIT: A little research shows that it will not be easy to do specific gravity. I can't seem to find any specific gravity sensors, but if we had a density sensor we could easily find SG (sg = d-liquid/d-water). Anybody have a way to find either of these that doesn't involve moving parts or acoustic waves?

opqdan said:

If you don't mind me stealing your idea, I would like to reasearch this. I'm a computer engineer (or at least I will be in December) so I would LOVE to do the software side of this (reciever, database backend, etc).

Click to expand...

Steal away. Just remember you owe me a beer or three when you get rich from this.

opqdan said:

This is an interesting idea.

I don't think that wireless (ie the whole device inside the carboy) would work. Any device large enough to hold batteries (enough for transmission), the components for reading sg and temp and the floatation device would probably be too large to fit through the neck. A simple sensor (2 really) in the carboy with a wire coming out between the air-lock and the stopper seems to be a much better idea. Not only would floatation not be required (it would be suspended from the top), but it would be easy to remove, and it could even be plugged in for power.

I'm all for either a bluetooth or RF connection to transmit to a computer so that data could be recorded (graphs, trends etc).

This sounds like a neat side project. The thermometer could be made with a simple thermistor, and converted to temperature by the computer, but I don't know what kind of devices there are for reading SG. My brew-partnet is doing work on RFIDs (I think) for his masters, so he might be able to help me with the transmitting part. If you don't mind me stealing your idea, I would like to reasearch this. I'm a computer engineer (or at least I will be in December) so I would LOVE to do the software side of this (reciever, database backend, etc).

Click to expand...

A small fishing bobber can fit into a carboy, would you agree? The process exists to make a chip that would fit into such a bobber. The functions are: temp, gravity and bluetooth connectivity, correct? Now you just have to pay designers and process engineers to do it (100K's). If you bought the sensors and the tranceiver seperately, the space neeed would be significantly greater. The bluetooth tranceiver would be the largest and complicated (read expensive) component, so omitting that would be cost beneficial. I'll look for some sensors and see what I see.

I'm no expert, but I do know that size and power arent the limiting factors here when it comes to temp.

For example, RFID chips don't require power supplies because the reader sends power via radio freq.

http://csdl2.computer.org/persagen/DLAbsToc.jsp?resourcePath=/dl/mags/pc/&toc=comp/mags/pc/2006/01/b1toc.xml&DOI=10.1109/MPRV.2006.15


Limiting factor right now is cost of the reader? Army is already doing this http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/erp/story/0,10801,87623,00.html

That would be awesome..!!! I definitely wouldnt get any work during the day done though...

Jester

olllllo said:

I'm no expert, but I do know that size and power arent the limiting factors here when it comes to temp.

For example, RFID chips don't require power supplies because the reader sends power via radio freq.

http://csdl2.computer.org/persagen/DLAbsToc.jsp?resourcePath=/dl/mags/pc/&toc=comp/mags/pc/2006/01/b1toc.xml&DOI=10.1109/MPRV.2006.15


Limiting factor right now is cost of the reader? Army is already doing this http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/erp/story/0,10801,87623,00.html

Click to expand...

I was looking for something that I could build myself, which would involve much larger components. It's great that somebody has developed components that can do this, but unless I can get my hands on them (I can't), they are useless to me. I think the whole project is lost as there do not seem to be any simple ways of finding the specific gravity electronically without using some sort of acoustic device, and the calibration of something like that would be a nightmare.

I was looking for something that I could build myself, which would involve much larger components. It's great that somebody has developed components that can do this, but unless I can get my hands on them (I can't), they are useless to me. I think the whole project is lost as there do not seem to be any simple ways of finding the specific gravity electronically without using some sort of acoustic device, and the calibration of something like that would be a nightmare.

Click to expand...

I hear you. I just wanted to let you know that it could be around the corner. All we need is a geek on the inside that is a homebrewer and it could happen.

My experience with this stuff is that the technology precedes the practical application and sometimes it takes a dedicated individual to get someone or do something to make it happen.

Cases in point: TIVO, Napster, Amber Alerts.

Electronic devices to measure SG / temperature do exist for salt water aquariums... take a look at this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7709700558&category=3212

"Specific Gravity range (1.000 - 1.030 S.G.), accuracy +-0.002 S.G."
"Tempurature range (0 - 70C) (32F - 158F)"

Although it has a limited range and probably couldn't read an accurate OG, it's a step in the right direction... correct?

PlanetBoogie said:

Although it has a limited range and probably couldn't read an accurate OG, it's a step in the right direction... correct?

Click to expand...

Perhaps a step. It doesn't transmit wirelessly, so you still have to physically take the measurement, which means you could just read a thermometer and hydrometer for a fraction of the cost.

olllllo said:

All we need is a geek on the inside that is a homebrewer...

Click to expand...

Yeah, because us HBT kids are too damned cool to be considered "geeks"

opqdan said:

EDIT: A little research shows that it will not be easy to do specific gravity. I can't seem to find any specific gravity sensors, but if we had a density sensor we could easily find SG (sg = d-liquid/d-water). Anybody have a way to find either of these that doesn't involve moving parts or acoustic waves?

Click to expand...

Here's my $0.02

For the SG, why not have the entire system rest on the bottom of the vessel. The SG could be determined by a pressure sensor (solenoid) attached to a buoyant cylinder. This cylinder should not break the surface, and as the SG changes so would the upward force on the sensor. The measurement could be tied into the electronics of the thermistor. The construction of the cylinder would have to be something that resists yeast deposition (Teflon?) otherwise the precision of the device would be compromised.

Instead of using the RF or Bluetooth, why not use an IR transmitter? It would work well in a carboy, but not in plastic or SS, however ,the power consumption may be lower, and you could easily put a port in the lid of fermenter for data collection. Plus, a lot of laptops have an IR port that is rarely used.

Anyone serious about this? I'm officially interested and willing to collaborate.

Matt

I was going to build something like this, but I couldnt find a good temp sensor.

What I really wanted was a box that could transmit wirelessly (bluetooth or whatever) with like 2 ft of temp a temp sensor that I could dangle into the wort and then set up a graph on my computer using cacti or something to record it.

A long time ago this company used to send out free samples of their RFID tags and a crude (serial) reader. Not sure if it's true any longer.


http://www.maxim-ic.com/products/ibutton/products/ibuttons.cfm#dataloggers

Unfortunately most of the temp sensors top out at 85C, so they couldn't just be tossed in with the boil. The ones that top out at 125C are pretty pricey.

I sent a general email noting our application. We'll see if they bite.

Cheesefood said:

Yeah, because us HBT kids are too damned cool to be considered "geeks"

Click to expand...

We'd be geeks on the outside on this one. Geeks with beer though.

psymn said:

Here's my $0.02

For the SG, why not have the entire system rest on the bottom of the vessel. The SG could be determined by a pressure sensor (solenoid) attached to a buoyant cylinder. This cylinder should not break the surface, and as the SG changes so would the upward force on the sensor. The measurement could be tied into the electronics of the thermistor. The construction of the cylinder would have to be something that resists yeast deposition (Teflon?) otherwise the precision of the device would be compromised.

Click to expand...

Just make your fermenter sit on the digital scale/transmitting device. Considering your fermenter has constant mass and volume you can recalc gravity of the liquid inside.

This actually woouldent be too difficult to do I bet, a bit more difficult to do minaturized. Im a physics major finishing my junior year. DA** you all for giving me the idea...there goes my summer. lol jk, but its a good idea, we could use an infrared emitter and sensor(cheaper, the type found on a TV remote) and a watch battery. It could pulse to only give a reading every minute or so to save battery size. Im not sure about the SG sensor, I could ask a professor of mine. What would really be nice is to have a CO2 sensor on there as well.

Personally I think that RF would be better than IR in most cases. For one thing, IR is really good at getting blocked by almost nothing, whereas the RF can propagate further and through more stuff. For another thing, it isn't that much more complicated to do it, and for yet another thing, battery life would not be a problem. An RF transmitter with a range of what we need could last months off of a single AAA battery.

As far as temp sensors go, there are tons out there of all shapes, sizes and ranges. We would just have to choose one that corresponded to the range we need (lager temperatures all the way to boiling), and the accuracy (I assume within one degree is good enough for this application).

Both of these take a back seat to the specific gravity problem though as the whole project hinges on this application. It would be possible to have the sensors rest on the bottom with a floaty and measure the bouyant force (as another poster mentioned), but this seems prone to problems.

Check this out from (ugh) April 5................................1990!

http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/393.html#393-3

I got an email about the iButtons from Dallas Semiconductor / MAXIM.

Here is a list of all of our data loggers:
http://www.maxim-ic.com/products/ibutton/products/ibuttons.cfm#dataloggers

Here are some wireless 1-Wire products from our partners that you may be interested in:
http://www.maxim-ic.com/products/ibutton/solutions/search.cfm?Action=DD&id=205


​

Seems as though this is a dead end in terms of specific gravity.

cweston said:

A little item which floats in a bucket or carboy and transmits temperature and SG of the fermenting wort through a wire to an extrenal digital monitor.

You'd have to have some sort of special bung that the wire passed through with a hole for an airlock.

Wouldn't that be cool? Plus you could have an option for this thing to also be a thermostat for controlling heating and/or cooling. It could tell you the change in SG over the last 24 hours, maybe--making it very obvious whether a beer is still fermenting.

Any ambitious inventers out there?

Click to expand...

sometimes the amatures can learn by looking at what the pros are doing
here is a link to a hand held instument that measures: alcohol content in w/w%, v/v%, US proof, and UK proof. Also used for simple sugar determination in Brix%, °Baume, or °Plato
https://www1.fishersci.com/Coupon?cid=1328&gid=318712&details=Y
the cost is only $2,441.10 so start saving your pennies
it is too big to fit into your carboy but it can wirelessly download to you computer!

here is another density meter for those of you who are tired of breaking your glass hydrometer
http://www.berthold-us.com/industrial/products/density.htm:

johnoswald said:

sometimes the amatures can learn by looking at what the pros are doing
here is a link to a hand held instument that measures: alcohol content in w/w%, v/v%, US proof, and UK proof. Also used for simple sugar determination in Brix%, °Baume, or °Plato
https://www1.fishersci.com/Coupon?cid=1328&gid=318712&details=Y
the cost is only $2,441.10 so start saving your pennies
it is too big to fit into your carboy but it can wirelessly download to you computer!

Click to expand...

That's not necessarily discouraging. Alot of the cost and bulk is tied up in it being a mini-computer. It measures, calculates, stores and transmits the data to a desktop (at a later time). It's ruggedized, has batteries, display, memory, etc.

My assumption is that we would be leveraging existing computers or laptops to do most of this. We really only need the sensor/reader (and API) and it would ideally be wireless but that may only be a "nice to have."

there are wireless temp sensors for cooks/chefs, I use one when I am steeping and heating water to a boil.

Wireless SG is the tough one.

Yeah we could do a small wireless or even an FM type signal, the challenge would still be the specific gravity.

AdIn said:

Just make your fermenter sit on the digital scale/transmitting device. Considering your fermenter has constant mass and volume you can recalc gravity of the liquid inside.

Click to expand...

That would not work, because the mass of the fermenter would not change very much. The yeast uses some of the sugar to reporduce. So even though the density of the wort changes the overall mass of the container may not change much.

Anyone know how much CO2 is produced per kg sugar?

Matt

psymn said:

That would not work, because the mass of the fermenter would not change very much. The yeast uses some of the sugar to reporduce. So even though the density of the wort changes the overall mass of the container may not change much.

Anyone know how much CO2 is produced per kg sugar?

Matt

Click to expand...

I thought that gravity was more of a measure of viscosity than actual weight.

Specific gravity is simply the ratio of the density of the wort over the density of pure water. Pure water is well known to have a density of about 1.00g/mL.
Mathematically this is written as

Density Wort(g/mL)
-------------------------= Specific Gravity
Density Water(g/mL)

Specific gravity is unitless because it is just a ratio. So since alcohol is less dense than pure water, and adding sugar to the water makes it more dense(now called the wort ) the change in specific gravity is used to estimate how far along fermentation has gone. The yeast change sugar into alcohol(creating CO2 as a byproduct) which lowers the wort density. So thats how it all works. I dont know how much co2 per kg of sugar, prob depends on the yeast strain, if you figure it out let me know. lolwow sorry this was long.

A diver's wrist mount wireless computer would do it. Temperature is readily available and recorded in seconds increments. Salinity can be calibrated to read as SG. Not cheap though...



And, no, I am not putting my dive computer in the fermentor to test.

TekelBira said:

A diver's wrist mount wireless computer would do it. Temperature is readily available and recorded in seconds increments. Salinity can be calibrated to read as SG. Not cheap though...



And, no, I am not putting my dive computer in the fermentor to test.

Click to expand...

...also, woulnd't it burn your hand...???

I just had a Fantastic Voyage flashback.

"I hear you. I just wanted to let you know that it could be around the corner. All we need is a geek on the inside that is a homebrewer and it could happen."


Hey my first post. The Temp thing would be a breeze. Thermocouple or RTD would be my recomendation. Little signal conditioning to a cheap analog to digital converter from national instruments and your away. For the Pressure ... How about using a pressure sensor at a known depth say 20 inches (deeper is better here) then signal condition and send to the converter and thats away. Its not that hard ... if your a GEEK.
right on

Nice thought newfie I totally agree on the temp, as far a pressure I kinda thought about that as well but wouldent any pressure difference due to gravity considerations be negligible? We would need an extremely precise pressure sensor. The pressure difference on a hydrometer really isnt that much, and since liquid ethanol is being created wouldent the volume also be changing.
I was thinking maybe we could use elelectrical resistance. There would have to be a difference between the resistance in alcohol and water.
Or we could measure the CO2 pressure inside the fermentor (yes I know the airlock releases it). The pressure would increase slightly before it could blowoff. A graph of this would probably look like hills with cliffs(blowoff). We could subtract off these cliffs and integrate that area. We coul probably figure out a way to relate CO2 pressure area to how much alcohol has been created.

PS we ARE the geeks on the inside lol

Hey SpecialEd, Never calculated pressure diff on specific grav at that depth ... but prolly would be small, maybe too small to get resolution on. I like the Conservation of mass idea from fermentation equation. However isn't there more going on in the wort than just changing simple sugars to ethanol and CO2? Depending on the wort content, temp, yeast etc. It is a bit of a noodle scratcher. One of my old profs is a measurement genius .... maybe i'll ask him.

newfie do it..im still in school..1year left on my physics degree so I overthink things too lol. Yeah there isa lot more than just CO2 and ehtanol conversion, reproduction, metabolism.... im def not a biologist. Just thought pressure wouldent change as much as we would need because as density(due tosugar) decreased volume (due to ethanol) would increase. CO2 would prob be similarly complicated to map mathematically but a CO2 sensor might be easier to use than a pressure...? lol although you sound like the electronics kind of guy, if you can come up with a pressure sensor id definitely be on board.