The [Horribly Unpopular] Soccer Thread

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lgilmore said:
Why the baseball fields for games? Natural grass. Not many football stadiums have Natural grass anymore. IN Seattle, they build a grass field and bring it in on top of the field turf to play these international friendlies. A lot of leagues and players for that matter won't play on anything other than grass. Having been years ago to Wales National Rugby stadium, the grass was mowed everyday an 1/8 inch, one of the most beautiful surfaces you'll ever walk on. A 70k seat stadium at the time they only used for international matches. Field turf is an American concept as demand and number of games played make natural grass pretty hard to maintain.
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I'm not sure of the other cities that had their international friendlies in baseball stadiums, but in Chicago (Roma v. some Polish team I don't know) Soldier Field is all grass. The smart alternative to a smaller Toyota Park was there, but they chose Wrigley instead. I guess they're just trying to round out all the major sports that have played there. Next up, basketball...
 
aygov said:
I'm not sure of the other cities that had their international friendlies in baseball stadiums, but in Chicago (Roma v. some Polish team I don't know) Soldier Field is all grass. The smart alternative to a smaller Toyota Park was there, but they chose Wrigley instead. I guess they're just trying to round out all the major sports that have played there. Next up, basketball...
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HA!

Luckily LA is hosting Tottenham at the Home Depot Center so nobody will be able to complain about turf.

It's nice having one of the oldest (and still one of the nicest) soccer specific stadiums in the country.
 
Very much stoked! There's actually quite a bit of mid-week action to enjoy: LA vs Tottenham, MLS All-Stars, and the beginning of the Olympic tournament.

WOO!
 
Reno_eNVy said:
VICTORY!!

Suck it, everybody who talks s**t about MLS
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Why? Because the all-star team beat a Premier league team that didn't look like they could be bothered?
 
Catfish78 said:
Why? Because the all-star team beat a Premier league team that didn't look like they could be bothered?
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If you call that Chelsea performance "not bothered" then apparently they've found a few extra gears over the off season that they can go to.

Sure, the MLS players had the important advantage of being very match fit while Chelsea is still working on match fitness, but I would definitely say that Chelsea was looking to win that game. If they weren't bothered Di Matteo would have thrown the reserves on and told fat Frank and JT to stay on the beach.
 
How about the fact that the MLS all-star team is an assembled group of players that do not normally play together as a team? I think that is a significant handicap to match any lack of "match-fitness" on the Chelsea side. Point is, MLS should be respected. Is it on the same level as the English, Spanish, Italian, German leagues? Not yet, but its on the way...
 
Catfish78 said:
Why? Because the all-star team beat a Premier league team that didn't look like they could be bothered?
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Yeah, Di Matteo saying beforehand that they are taking the match quite seriously means they couldn't have bothered.... right?

aygov said:
If you call that Chelsea performance "not bothered" then apparently they've found a few extra gears over the off season that they can go to.
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This

FlyDoctor said:
How about the fact that the MLS all-star team is an assembled group of players that do not normally play together as a team? I think that is a significant handicap to match any lack of "match-fitness" on the Chelsea side. Point is, MLS should be respected. Is it on the same level as the English, Spanish, Italian, German leagues? Not yet, but its on the way...
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This x1000!!! Seriously, as a group they had two full training sessions and they beat the European Champions. RESPECT!

EDIT: In my humble opinion, at least half of MLS clubs would be Champions League clubs in all of those leagues. I'd even go as far to say that MLS is on par with Bundesliga.
 
Reno_eNVy said:
that MLS is on par with Bundesliga.
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Do you honestly think LA Galaxy could play on the same pitch as Bayern Munchen?

Look at how badly the MLS teams do in the crappy champions league over here, where its basically teams from Mexico vs teams from MLS. If you can't win the, what is it called, concacaf champions league? You can't compete with the best teams in Europe, and typically, the Bundesliga is producing one or two of the top 15 teams in the whole of Europe.

Also, does any other league have an "all star" team that plays off season powerhouse teams? The mls was designed to be like all other american sports, and that is one of its biggest hurdles. Having a playoff system, while entertaining, i don't think is the best thing for the league. There's just too much in the way for them to keep up with leagues that have been playing in the hotbeds of football for hundreds of years.

sorry so long :tank:
 
mrgstiffler said:
When the MLS allstars lose its because the MLS can't compete. When they win it's because the other team sucked. :rolleyes:
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HA! You beat me to it.

GarageDweller said:
Do you honestly think LA Galaxy could play on the same pitch as Bayern Munchen?

Look at how badly the MLS teams do in the crappy champions league over here, where its basically teams from Mexico vs teams from MLS. If you can't win the, what is it called, concacaf champions league? You can't compete with the best teams in Europe, and typically, the Bundesliga is producing one or two of the top 15 teams in the whole of Europe.

Also, does any other league have an "all star" team that plays off season powerhouse teams? The mls was designed to be like all other american sports, and that is one of its biggest hurdles. Having a playoff system, while entertaining, i don't think is the best thing for the league. There's just too much in the way for them to keep up with leagues that have been playing in the hotbeds of football for hundreds of years.

sorry so long :tank:
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Okay, here's the deal: the CONCACAF Champions League is a different beast then UEFA.... Honduran/Mexican/Columbian/etc. atmospheres are brutal and unlike anything in UEFA, and players who come over from Europe can attest to that. CONCACAF clubs outside of US and Canada have a severe home-field advantage.

Not only that but the CCL has only recently been given a lot of attention by the domestic league. It used to be just something that got in the way of the regular season because schedule is different for MLS than any other league in the world. But now MLS clubs have 30 man rosters to increase their depth to be able to compete in said tournament.

And as far as playoffs go... I'd much rather have playoffs in which somebody can rise from 10th seed to win it instead of a small handful (read: four) of clubs in EPL winning it every single friggin time. Seriously, what's so exciting about a club clinching the league championship weeks before the season is over? Great, that just rendered the remaining matches null-and-void, save the relegation battle.

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:
Sorry Reno, but you are deluded. Not to say it won;t happen one day, but not yet by a long way.
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Sorry, just call 'em like I see 'em :ban:


Also, here are some things MLS clubs have to deal with that no other league in the world has to:

- Ridiculously massive travel distances. In 2010 Seattle traveled 49,500 miles for MLS matches only, not including CCL or US Open Cup. In 2011, Vancouver
topped it with 52,000 miles. Other leagues in tiny countries have a fraction of a fraction of the travel distance.

- PARITY! I honestly can't put enough emphasis on that first word. That might be what sets us apart the most from the rest of the world. MLS wanted to make sure it survived in its early years, and as such they instituted a salary cap to keep things as level and competitive as possible. Granted, there are new loopholes like the Designated Player Rule.... but still, if MLS can keep up with and even beat European clubs who can spend ungodly amounts of money to get players, then I'd say that's another point in the favor of MLS. And along with parity comes the single-entity ownership of the league and thus the Allocation process, which levels things out even more.

- Scheduling. MLS runs March-November (including playoffs) as opposed to the major Euro leagues. Because of this, MLS clubs have to deal with CCL, US Open Cup, players missing due to international duty, and friendlies from off-season Euro clubs, all right smack in the middle of their regular season. And while the Eurosnobs clamor for MLS to match up their scheduling with Europe, it's quite obvious to actual American soccer fans that playing a match in December/January/February in Toronto, Montreal, New York, etc., is 100% out of the question. We don't get the warm current from the Gulf of Mexico like Europe does, essentially preventing western Europe from being a solid block of ice in winter.
 
Other things worth noting:

- Toronto FC, arguably the worst club in the league, finished level against a Liverpool side that had most of their starters... and TFC were leading for a while. Not only that but TFC had a trialist in goal.
- LA Galaxy drew with Tottenham, and LA had a very rag-tag lineup that was mostly youngins
- If MLS is so below the other leagues, why do they all come over to play us in their preseason? Why not A-League, J-League, or the Mexican Primera? And why are all of the big names in international soccer now showing interest and coming over to MLS?


EDIT:

- Let's also not forget that MLS is in its 17th season, keeping up with clubs that are a century old.
 
Reno_eNVy said:
- If MLS is so below the other leagues, why do they all come over to play us in their preseason? Why not A-League, J-League, or the Mexican Primera? And why are all of the big names in international soccer now showing interest and coming over to MLS?
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That is easy, MONEY.

Don't get me wrong. I am not dogging the MLS. I was watching and traveling to matches from its inception till about 5 years ago. I moved to Europe and haven't kept up as much as I would have liked over this time. There are plenty of individuals that are highly skilled and could fit into European clubs, we all have seen this. The league as a whole, in my opinion, might be equivalent to the SPL at this stage. It will continue to improve and I do hope it gets to the level of play of the top European leagues.

As far as the Chelsea match, why would a manager come out and say "well we are just working on some things here, we aren't concerned with the outcome". Because that is disrespectful and doesn't put butts in seats. Chelsea couldn't give a toss either way. They treat it like any other preseason match and work on things.
 
Catfish78 said:
As far as the Chelsea match, why would a manager come out and say "well we are just working on some things here, we aren't concerned with the outcome". Because that is disrespectful and doesn't put butts in seats. Chelsea couldn't give a toss either way. They treat it like any other preseason match and work on things.
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I see it this way. Are Chelsea going to treat it with the same level of determination they did the CL final. No, this isn't even in the same universe as that. Are they just out there to kick the ball around and work on things? I really doubt it. What with Man U basically rolling the All Stars the last two years running I'm pretty sure Chelsea was gunning for the same result. I think it's expected of EPL clubs the likes of Chelsea and up to come over here and make short work of the MLS All Stars. Sort of an England expects thing if you will. So yes, this may not have been the same focused determined Chelsea that attained European glory this summer, but they definitely weren't the indifferent "we're just here to work on match fitness" team either.

As far as comparing the MLS to other leagues, I've grown tired of it honestly. We're a young league that doesn't even play competitively against any of the leagues we're held up to. I have no delusions of US challenging for top honors in the European leagues but past that I can't definitively say how well most of the teams would do in say the Bundesliga, Ligue 1 etc. Some will do better than others and some will probably get relegated rather quickly, but who really knows. The bottom line is that for a 17 year old league we're doing quite well for ourselves.
 
I for one am a fan of the playoff system. Call me an american elitist if you will haha.
 
Hmmmm, where to start.. first off, it comes down to money. I think either last year or in the last few years Man U has had the largest sports payroll on the planet for a team. These guys make the Yankees look tight. When Man U played Seattle last year Seattle's entire payroll was 3.4 million, or in other words what Rooney played the match with in his back pocket. The rest was in his other jeans at his flat. I think Man U's starting 11 made more than the MLS put out in payroll.

The MLS has a solid business model going, slowly growing and actually creating a demand for tickets. Had they gone "cosmos" the league would have folded again. This time they are using a more sane approach. Limited seating makes demand where people can't sit on their arse till game time to decide to go. I used to be heavily involved with the old Sounders and while they put a good product on the field for the price, they had to compete with a Sunny Seattle day for attendence. No limited seating, no demand. As you can see they figured it out for the MLS version.

The MLS can field some competitive teams that would or could fill the bottom tier of the epl. but just like those teams there now, it's payroll payroll payroll. The top of the table EPL teams or for that matter any league SPEND money for quality. Often times it works, sometimes it doesn't.. look at the Rangers.

Those knocking the mexican league aren't really following soccer. The Mexican league is considered very good and very strong. A little corupt, but we're learning that about all of them these days.

And again anybody who thinks these euro sides are just mailing it in, do you really understand professional sport? You think any of those players for Chelsea were mailing it in? Do you honestly think they f around with their paycheck? Everything at that level is about competition, you slag off and you're gone, freindly or not. The only thing a coach would do is limit playing time for his premier players. Usually to build to match fitness or avoid injury. NOBODY on Chelsea or any other side touring America is dogging it. Any player that is, you won't see next year.....

Why to they come to America to play? Top notch places to train, a clean water supply, Food that doesn't create food posioning, to expand the brand, to look at the american youth for possible future players. When I was doing my thing with Seattle, they were looking at a partnership of sorts with verder bremen to develop players in both countries. Seattle provided playing time and training to up and comers and VB took several sounders over for training. Houston's current GK was a 14 year old then and a lot of eyes were on that kid. Very talented.

So the all star outcome. Good for the ego, good for the brand. A bit embarassing for Chelsea. Does it mean we can compete with Chelsea on a regular basis? no. But still an enjoyable match to watch. Ecept just like Man U's coach, Chelsea's coach points out Ozzy Alonso.... How long Seattle keeps him with Seattle? maybe not beyond this season. He may be the next "American" to go to the EPL. Not bad for someone who's been an American for less than 30 days.
 
lgilmore said:
The MLS has a solid business model going, slowly growing and actually creating a demand for tickets. Had they gone "cosmos" the league would have folded again.
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Most definitely. It's cool to see the Cosmos in NASL again but their old business model nearly destroyed soccer in America... 100 years of the sport shot down the drain (yup, that's right. The first competitive soccer match with official rules in America was shortly after the Civil War.)

lgilmore said:
This time they are using a more sane approach. Limited seating makes demand where people can't sit on their arse till game time to decide to go. I used to be heavily involved with the old Sounders and while they put a good product on the field for the price, they had to compete with a Sunny Seattle day for attendence. No limited seating, no demand. As you can see they figured it out for the MLS version.
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Quite. I'm under the impression that they could easily open the entire 67,000 seats but they'd probably only sell-out every now and then when big names and rivals come to town (i.e. LA, NY, Vancouver, Portland.) But then you run into the issue of hiring enough security/concessionists to deal with 67,000 fans, and if the game isn't a sell-out then you have unnecessary overhead expenditure. They were very smart about it, opening a few thousand more each season based on pre-ordered season tickets. The same can be said of the new soccer-specific stadiums. Livestrong Sporting Park, PPL Park, and Stade Saputo could have easily been made larger but capping them at around 20,000 creates demand and provides max capacity well over the league average. And if I remember correctly, they are all designed for expansion. Plus there's BBVA Compass Stadium at 22,000, BC Place at 21,000, and then you have San Jose working on their new stadium which will be roughly 18,000. The only iffy stadium, IMMHO, is Red Bull Arena. They are set at 25,000 but almost never sell-out.


lgilmore said:
Those knocking the mexican league aren't really following soccer. The Mexican league is considered very good and very strong. A little corupt, but we're learning that about all of them these days.
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My apologies, I wasn't necessarily bashing the league. I was just using it as a reference point. They are indeed a very strong league.


lgilmore said:
Why to they come to America to play? Top notch places to train, a clean water supply, Food that doesn't create food posioning, to expand the brand, to look at the american youth for possible future players.
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Very good points.

lgilmore said:
Ecept just like Man U's coach, Chelsea's coach points out Ozzy Alonso.... How long Seattle keeps him with Seattle? maybe not beyond this season. He may be the next "American" to go to the EPL. Not bad for someone who's been an American for less than 30 days.
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Yeah, he's been getting mad amounts of press for his performance, as he should be. Looks like he's no longer Seattle's best kept secret! :D

However, I'd go ahead and say that since he went to so much trouble to become a US citizen that he likely won't be going anywhere soon. I'm also under the impression that Klinsmann should invite him to the next camp! Having Beckerman as a holding-middie has opened up Michael Bradley to focus more on the attack, which is most certainly where he should be. The addition of "The Honey Badger" would give Klinsey options in that position as well as create competition for a starting spot, overall improving the Yanks play in the middle 3rd of the field.
 
And to amend my previous post without it getting lost in my long-windedness :)D) RBNY just announced that they've officially signed Tim Cahill as their third DP. Having another big name like that might just boost their attendance.
 
Having a dedicated Olympic soccer channel is pretty sweet. Onto the 4th game of the day. First 2 were live, next two taped. Just gotta avoid score updates all day.
 
"I'm under the impression that they could easily open the entire 67,000 seats but they'd probably only sell-out every now and then when big names and rivals come to town"

Seattle learned a valuable lesson during their run in the second division. I worked with their front office as well as a large soccer program. On game day you literally had people standing there deciding if they wanted to spend a couple hours at the game or doing something else. It was brutal, since people knew they could walk up on game day if they wanted to there was absolutely no sense of urgency to buy tickets. The old Sounders never got the crowds they deserved simply because you could get a ticket without any problem on game day.

The new sounders figured that out this time. You should read all the complaints about people "not" being able to walk and buy a ticket on matchday. ;) There's a lot of local complaining about not being able to just come down before kick off and get into the game. So what do people do that want to watch a game? They buy early and often. Seattle has a season ticket base of 34,000 or so and only a couple thousand game day seats availible which also go as single match purchases ahead of time. It is dam near impossible to walk up minutes before kick off and get a ticket from anyone other than scalpers. They figured it out.
 
Reno_eNVy said:
Seriously, what's so exciting about a club clinching the league championship weeks before the season is over? Great, that just rendered the remaining matches null-and-void, save the relegation battle.
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Ok, not to drag this thread backwards, but you did watch the last EPL season didn't you? The whole thing was decided in the last 30 seconds of the last game. It was one of the most dramatic finishes ever. Plus the team that won it, although they spent a TON of money getting there, hadn't won a league title in decades.

Another topic that is interesting to me, is the MLS draft. I like the idea of the MLS draft, in that it gives college players a chance to make it to the next level etc., but no other countries are doing this. You are either good and you go and play your way through the ranks at the developmental level, or you're done. They are not recruiting college players to come in at the professional level. In the US, collegiate athletics provide a training ground for professional development in sports, and lets face it, NCAA is really not that high of a level in soccer. I played NCAA, I currently coach NCAA, but about 1% of these kids will play pro sports, the rest will make twice as much doing something that is much easier.

This raises the question, "Is college athletics killing the development of our higher level 'soccer' athletes?" I know, personally, a handful of kids that went on to play MLS after college. They made about $15k their first few years and went to A League to make more money. Sad, but true.

carry-on.....:mug:
 
GarageDweller said:
Ok, not to drag this thread backwards, but you did watch the last EPL season didn't you? The whole thing was decided in the last 30 seconds of the last game. It was one of the most dramatic finishes ever. Plus the team that won it, although they spent a TON of money getting there, hadn't won a league title in decades.
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Yeah, this past season was an interesting one... but that is really not the norm. I don't claim to be an EPL expert or follow it as feverishly as I do MLS, but didn't Man U claim the 2010-11 title well before the season ended? Plus, since the start of the modern premier league, they have won it 12 times and have never placed lower than 3rd on the table. Then there's Arsenal who have placed top 5 since 1995, Chelsea in the top 6 since 1996, and Chelsea and Liverpool with 11 and 12 top 4 finishes, respectively.

While it would awesome for LA to have the kind of pedigree Man U has, I would find MLS to be quite boring if the top of the table was aaaaaaaaaalways the same. Instead of the beginning of the season being a clean-slate where anybody can win, you instead watch to see who can get lucky enough or who can outspend who to beat Man U.
 
Reno_eNVy said:
Yeah, this past season was an interesting one... but that is really not the norm. I don't claim to be an EPL expert or follow it as feverishly as I do MLS, but didn't Man U claim the 2010-11 title well before the season ended? Plus, since the start of the modern premier league, they have won it 12 times and have never placed lower than 3rd on the table. Then there's Arsenal who have placed top 5 since 1995, Chelsea in the top 6 since 1996, and Chelsea and Liverpool with 11 and 12 top 4 finishes, respectively.

While it would awesome for LA to have the kind of pedigree Man U has, I would find MLS to be quite boring if the top of the table was aaaaaaaaaalways the same. Instead of the beginning of the season being a clean-slate where anybody can win, you instead watch to see who can get lucky enough or who can outspend who to beat Man U.
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Ok, but just as 2012 doesn't mean the majority of seasons end that way, 2011 doesn't mean that the majority of seasons end THAT way, either. The title was decided by a point in 2009-2010, and 2 points in 2007-2008. You have to go back to 2004-2005 to find a margin as large as Man U's 9 point lead in 2011.

The argument, really, is whether you want to ensure a "lose or go home" ending, which obviously you can only do with a playoff, or if you want each game to potentially be the difference between a title or not, which is what you get with the EPL. You can look back on every single loss or draw that ManU had this season and if they had won that game, they would have won the title. You can't honestly say that about leagues with a playoff. Sure, seeding could come down to the difference in one win, and for the last team in/first team out of the playoffs, you can make that argument. But the majority of teams that made it to the playoffs weren't a game from missing out on a shot at the title.

On a side note, in american college football, I'm actually very pro playoff because of how few of the best teams actually play each other in a given season. But in the EPL, where everyone plays everyone, you can't argue that you didn't get a chance, and to me, the system in the EPL ensures that the best season is rewarded. Not the team that got hot at the end, the team that had the best season.

As for your point about the Big 4 (although I think we can agree that the traditional big 4 is out the window with the rise of Man City and Tottenham and the fall of Liverpool), I agree that this is a negative of the EPL (and even more extremely so with La Liga) from the fan's perspective. However, given the importance places on the Champions League, I don't foresee the european leagues actually wanting to promote parity, since it would likely result in top teams coming down a bit, and therefore a reduction of european success.
 
Thanks. Like I said, I don't claim to be an EPL expert.

And yes, FBS needs to die a painful death in place for a playoff system. I have a lot more to say on that point since my school is in a mid-major conference but I really really don't want to open that can of worms. FBS homers are as bad as Fundies.
 

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