I'm seven homebrews into my brewing life and I can't seem to shake a certain flavor. For about three brews I was using a Mr Beer kit and pretty cheap packet dry yeast. As I grew more and more frustrated (and the beers aged and maintained that same flavor) I went out and bought a carboy and started using much better White Labs yeast. I am still just steeping grains and using LME and the only brew I have really enjoyed (a cherry stout) was made with DME. The flavor could best be described as a yeasty syrupy taste that overpowers any great hop or grain flavor. I used about 6oz of hops in my last 3 gallon batch and it tastes like a syrupy pale. Totally undesirable. This flavor has lasted in my earliest of brews so it doesn't seem much attributed with conditioning time. Should I blame it on the LME and just make the switch over to all-grain? My favorite style has got to be Imperial IPA and tasting the specific hop flavors is most important to me. I can give recipes if it would help pinpoint the problem even better. I just want all of my homebrews to stop tasting the same!
Getting the same flavor from batch to batch
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JefeTheVol
Well-Known Member
Oh man, a question like this is going to need all of the information of your process. Temp of mash (mini-mash in your example), pH, temp of fermentation, and the specific yeast strains. Please dont get frustrated with us for asking so many details but its the best way we can help because we were not present for your brewing process.
Your question is equivalent to going to a doctor and telling him "I feel bad, doc...whats wrong?"
I doubt it has anything to do with using extract, because plenty of brewers on the forum use extract all the time with great results. The problem most likely lies in your brewing process. For instance, as mentioned earlier, if your pH or temps are off you will attract off-flavors. It would be helpful if you could compare the taste to something, ie "sour apples", "band-aids", "tooth paste"
Also, the age of your LME could cause your beer to turn out less than optimal. So many factors play into the process we just cant immediately diagnose. It would be immensely helpful if you took one of your brews and wrote it out step by step for us. Using as many details as you can.
-Jefe-
Your question is equivalent to going to a doctor and telling him "I feel bad, doc...whats wrong?"
I doubt it has anything to do with using extract, because plenty of brewers on the forum use extract all the time with great results. The problem most likely lies in your brewing process. For instance, as mentioned earlier, if your pH or temps are off you will attract off-flavors. It would be helpful if you could compare the taste to something, ie "sour apples", "band-aids", "tooth paste"
Also, the age of your LME could cause your beer to turn out less than optimal. So many factors play into the process we just cant immediately diagnose. It would be immensely helpful if you took one of your brews and wrote it out step by step for us. Using as many details as you can.
-Jefe-
The temp of the mini mash (or steeping) has been around 180F for 30 minutes or so. I have gotten this taste with my first couple of brews that were extract only. I do not have the means to do a pH test right now but I can tell you that I was using cheap Coopers/Muntons but upgraded to US-05 and California Ale yeast for the last two takes at an IPA. I ferment all of my ales between 69-70F. My LME is bought by the pound straight from my LHBS and my water is all bottled purified water sourced locally here in Oregon. I only use Star San to sanitize. For 3 gallons of IPA or pale ale I typically use 1lb grain to steep, 3 lbs of LME, 4oz of hops (1 oz at 60, 1 at 30, 1 at 15, 1 to dry hop), and irish moss at 15 minutes to the end of boil. I pitch a whole vial of yeast after the wort has cooled. I typically add quite a bit of cool water to the fermenter too if that helps with anything. I'd say 3/4 is wort with 1/4 being water to top off and change the gravity.
After I saw "band-aid", that description stuck with me for awhile. I definitely get some band aid with a little bit of fruit flavor, light plastic (even though I've been fermenting in glass), heavy syrup mouthfeel and taste, and hop bitterness. It's almost a little yeast stinky, too and quite watery, albeit with a strong bitter (almost mouth tingling) taste. I've had about 4 brews now that tasted the same and were all different recipes. All of the lighter ales that I have made I haven't enjoyed at all, however, I don't get anything like this when I make a darker beer.
After I saw "band-aid", that description stuck with me for awhile. I definitely get some band aid with a little bit of fruit flavor, light plastic (even though I've been fermenting in glass), heavy syrup mouthfeel and taste, and hop bitterness. It's almost a little yeast stinky, too and quite watery, albeit with a strong bitter (almost mouth tingling) taste. I've had about 4 brews now that tasted the same and were all different recipes. All of the lighter ales that I have made I haven't enjoyed at all, however, I don't get anything like this when I make a darker beer.
180 degrees is about 25 degrees too hot for a mini-mash. I don't think that's where this flavor is coming from, but it's important for a mini mash to maintain temperatures of 150-155 for about 45 minutes. If you're just steeping the grain, not mashing, it's less critical but you still should stay under 160.
Because your darker beers are better, I'm wondering about your water. It could be that your water is very hard (lots of bicarbonate) or alkaline. It's also possible that you are using chlorinated water, or worse, water with chloramines in it. What kind of water have you been using?
Do you rinse out your carboy after sanitizing? What do you put in your airlock for the yeast starter and the carboys? DO NOT put any sanitizer in those places - use vodka.
Make sure you boil any water that is added to the wort to get the chlorine out - don't top off a cold fermenter or kettle.
Make sure you boil any water that is added to the wort to get the chlorine out - don't top off a cold fermenter or kettle.
Wellshooter
Well-Known Member
What water are you using, tap, RO, bottled, distilled ? Have you used the same water in all brews. It sounds as if you have very discerning taste buds and water can have a subtle effect.
I question the source of his LME he said the one good brew he used DME. Have you thought about ordering some LME online from a good homebrew site and compare? Just a thought
XXguy
Well-Known Member
Read www.howtobrew.com
Use a hydrometer. Sounds to me like you're moving along too quickly & the beer isn't finished. What's your normal timeline ? Do you normally take OG & FG readings ?
Also, an ambient air temp of 69-70 can mean a fermenting temp of 75+. That's too high. Search here & read about "swamp coolers" for a cheap way to keep ferment temps under control.
Use a hydrometer. Sounds to me like you're moving along too quickly & the beer isn't finished. What's your normal timeline ? Do you normally take OG & FG readings ?
Also, an ambient air temp of 69-70 can mean a fermenting temp of 75+. That's too high. Search here & read about "swamp coolers" for a cheap way to keep ferment temps under control.
I agree on the mash/steeping temps too high. The ferment temps are probably also a bit high. I like to hit about 62 or so since the yeast will create their own heat while working. Then raise the temp after the first few days of active fermentation.
I would also recommend rehydrating your yeast or pitching two packets if you are using dry. Creating a starter for liquid.
Maybe try some spring water from the store? Purified water may not have enough of the minerals that yeast need to be healthy. Or get some minerals to add to the purified water.
I also prefer DME personally, but LME ought to work ok if it's fresh. I've heard that LME usually has a "stale" flavor when it's older, and it can turn darker.
Yooper is right about the darker beers. The pH is going to be different in that case. But the darker beer might only be masking flavor, not necessarily eliminating it.
I would also recommend rehydrating your yeast or pitching two packets if you are using dry. Creating a starter for liquid.
Maybe try some spring water from the store? Purified water may not have enough of the minerals that yeast need to be healthy. Or get some minerals to add to the purified water.
I also prefer DME personally, but LME ought to work ok if it's fresh. I've heard that LME usually has a "stale" flavor when it's older, and it can turn darker.
Yooper is right about the darker beers. The pH is going to be different in that case. But the darker beer might only be masking flavor, not necessarily eliminating it.
I use Earth2O Natural Spring Water in every brew. I typically do not create a starter for my liquid yeast, just pitch in full when it is time. I also just remembered that my friend's homebrew (he lives about 2 miles away) had the very same taste, it was just more subtle in his brew. The only thing we have in common with brewing is our LHBS... he uses tap water whereas I use bottled spring water. We DO use the same LME. Should I try DME or dry LME in my next homebrew to discern what the problem is a little bit better? I do agree that the taste of the steeped grains and the DME probably covered up the taste in the darker beers that I have made. I will also get a hydrometer from my LHBS next time so I have more adequate information. I am open to experiment with my next brew (well, all of my brews so far have been experiments trying to shake the taste) so if you all have some variants of ingredients I should pick up, let me know!
First, either make a starter or use dry yeast. Stressed yeast from underpitching can cause some of the flavors you mention. If you don't have the time or inclination to make a starter, than don't use liquid yeast, at least for the time being. There are some fine dry yeast strains. For American ale with a clean flavor, try Safale S05.
Secondly, try an all-DME with steeping grains recipe. You may have some LME issues.
Third, control your temperatures. Get a good thermometer, and don't steep your grains over 160. Also, control the fermentation temperature. Get a "stick on" thermometer at the brew store (called a fermometer) and monitor the temp of the brew during fermentation. You want to be at 70 degrees or lower, ideally.
Some yeast strains are more forgiving of high (over 72 degrees) temperatures but most are not. In the case of nottingham, for example, that yeast gives off a foul flavor if fermentation temperatures (not ambient, but the fermentation temperature) rises above about 72 degrees.
As mentioned, a hydrometer will be helpful.
I'd suggest a relatively simple DME/grains recipe that can use dry yeast. Maybe an American pale ale, or English pale ale, or any other style that doesn't derive much of the flavor from the yeast strain. Our recipe database has hundreds (thousands?) of proven recipes, so I'd recommend starting there.
I totally agree with fermenting temp!! I had a almost the same problem when I did extract brewing. I had my fermenter in a room that was 69-70 and thought that was right but during the 2-3 days of vigourous fermentation the temp in the primary was rising to about 71-73 and giving a off flavor that was the same across all the syles if ale. Now I primary ales at 65 with no problem and it take about 4-5days to slow instead of 2days.
NorCalAngler
Well-Known Member
I also had issues with LME at my LHBS. If they don't turn over enough inventory or if they have poor storage then you could be using very stale LME. Luckily I have another LHBS not too far, but if you only have one then I recommend only using DME. Remember, DME is roughly 20% more potent than LME so adjust your recipe accordingly.
Alehouserock
Well-Known Member
As other have said:
155 is ideal for the mini mash
Make sure you are cleaning your equipment well enough. I have a lot of luck with oxyclean free. It removes odors without leaving one.
155 is ideal for the mini mash
Make sure you are cleaning your equipment well enough. I have a lot of luck with oxyclean free. It removes odors without leaving one.
You guys are great and very receptive to all of the noobness going on in my posts! I know my little brewing room was about 68-70F room temperature and I bet that made the yeast unhappy. Should I continue using the Earth 2O spring water? It doesn't seem to be much of a problem anymore...
If possible make small batches in 1gal containers from the same recipe and change a variable mentioned here on each and see what happens. US05 is a great ale yeast I use it all the time but I always keep it under 70 or I get a fruityness in the beer.
Only if you are comfortable with your tap water. I used spring water when I did extract. I now use my tap water because I do all-grain now and all the water gets boiled. Just have to make sure there is no bacteria or chemicals in it.
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