2 Vessel Brew System

I am thinking about stepping up from my turkey fryer/cooler MLT AG system to a 2 vessel brewing system and wanted some opinions from the experts on whether or not my process will work. My main concern is the way I plan on sparging. My understanding is that this is basically the brutus 20 system. I don't want to be limited in what I can and cannot brew. Any comments will be appreciated before I pull the trigger on the equipment to set this up. The process will be (I will use an example 5 gallon batch):

1) Heat 4 gallons water to 165 in MLT.
2) Add grain, stir, and mash for 60 minutes at 152.
3) Calculate grain absorption (lets say its 1.5 gallons in this case) and start heating 3.5 gallons sparge water to 170 in HLT.
4) When mash is finished add sparge water to MLT on top of mash.
5) Recirculate to set the grain bed.
6) Drain MLT to HLT for a collection of 6 gallons total wort.
7) Boil etc etc!

So is it possible to add my sparge water to the mash tun before I collect any wort at all and then simply collect it all at once?

You should search no sparge brewing. It sounds like you are trying to do no sparge with a mashout step. You can do it, but your efficiency will probably be lower than if you sparged the grains in some manner.

I guess the way I see it I would technically still be batch sparging because I wouldn't be starting out with the total volume. Wouldn't the mash be completed by the time I added the second batch of hot water? Does it really matter if I don't drain the original mash liquid prior to adding the sparge water?

Thanks for the advice about looking into no sparge brewing. That's exactly what i'm looking to achieve here. It looks like efficiency will take a hit, but no big deal when compared to the cost savings plus the storage space i'll gain by having to store one less kettle, a much smaller stand etc.

Should I still mash will my standard amount of strike water (say 4 gallons if I was continuing to use the example in my first post) and then add my addition sparge water after the mash has completed? Or should I just add the entire 8 gallons at once, mash for an hour and then drain? Any no sparge brewers out there?

And I also see differing instructions regarding recirculating during the mash. Will recirculating the water through the mash tun and into the boil kettle back and forth during the mash disturb the grain bed and otherwise cause a problem with the mash? I guess I was always under the impression that the mash needed to be stewing undisturbed for the extraction to occur. Maybe i'm wrong.

If you mash with the full volume (very thin mash) and recirculate the whole time you should actually achieve very good efficiency. I'm coming in at 78% consistently mashing with my total volume of water and not recirculating.

So just to clarify and help myself understand this process. I'll continue to use the 5 gallon batch mentioned in the first post as an example. I bring 7.5 gallons of water to mashing temp of about 152 (for example) in the mash tun, add the grain, stir, and immediately drain the mash tun into the boil kettle while I pump the liquid back into the mash tun at the same time. From here I should be able to sample and test the wort and the mashing process is complete once I achieve my target OG. When complete I will simply turn the recirculating pump off and allow the wort to drain into the kettle at which point I will begin the standard boil.

So there will be no need to vorlauf since the bed should already be settled due to the constant recirculating?

Will I still be able to produce wort with an OG above 1.050? I have read in a couple places that the Brutus 20 method can't make "bigger" beers.

Using this method should I still raise the temperature of the wort to around 165 - 170 when I plan on collecting the running like I would sparge water?

Here is what I would do. Bring your 7.5gal of water to Strike Temp, not Mash Temp then add your grain. Stir to break up any doughballs then begin the recirc and maintain your Mash Temp. When your mash is complete raise to Mashout Temps while recirculating, then pump to the BK. If your calculations were correct you should have the proper boil volume in your kettle and a proper Pre-Boil Gravity.

No need to vorlauf, you've been doing that the entire time.

Depends on the size of your mash tun and your BK, take a look at THIS thread to see how big your mash tun should be for certain batch sizes/OG's etc... ...if you are making a bigger beer you always have options if it is beyond the limits of your system. You can make a smaller batch, it takes me forever to drink 5gals of a big Barleywine. You can also add DME to make up your gravity.

Yes, raise to mashout temps while recirculating, it helps with sugar extraction.

Thanks for all the advice! So there is absolutely no issue with the liquid in the mash tun constantly moving and the grain never having a chance to sit and stew? Will the mash still take about 60 minutes as usual, or should I be testing periodically and determine when its finished based on OG alone?

I guess i'm having a hard time wrapping my head around why everyone doesn't choose this method. Two kettles, one burner, and a pump...seems so simple. Or maybe too simple

You're welcome, glad I can assist. No issues with the recirc, it actually improves efficiency because you are putting the enzymes (mostly in the liquid) in contact with more of the sugars (mostly in the grain) by moving them around so much. Do a search for Mash Stirrer's and you'll see that their efficiency jumps a bit as well. Mash for whatever the recipe calls for, even when starch conversion is finished (iodine test) you are still extracting sugars from the grain.

To each their own, I currently use the BIAB method and use only one vessel. I am also in the "parts gathering" phase of my own build that is a single vessel system (well really a vessel inside of a vessel) based on the Speidel Braumeister's concept. One kettle, one mash tube, one pump, one electric element... ...no sparging, no propane, no uneeded equipment and hopefully no troubles!

Check out ScubaSteve's single vessel build here, it's food for thought.

ryandlf said:

Thanks for all the advice! So there is absolutely no issue with the liquid in the mash tun constantly moving and the grain never having a chance to sit and stew? Will the mash still take about 60 minutes as usual, or should I be testing periodically and determine when its finished based on OG alone?

I guess i'm having a hard time wrapping my head around why everyone doesn't choose this method. Two kettles, one burner, and a pump...seems so simple. Or maybe too simple

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You can do it with one Kettle if you want to do BIAB and have no issue lifting the bag and holding it or have a set up where you can hang the bag to let it drain. With 2 kettles and one burner, you have to think about how and when you are going to transfer one kettle off the burner and put the other on. Messing around with moving several gallons of hot liquid and 10-20 lbs of grain isn't going to be fun. If you can lift the bag, it's easier (IMHO) to just pick the bag up than to have to move a kettle around.



I'm currently doing BIAB with one kettle and no pump and get ~75% conversion. My plan is to go to 2 kettles and a pump though so I don't have to lift and hold the bag, though the house I'm moving into at the end of the month has a patio I will brew on, with a deck over it, so if I can hook up a lift for the bag I may just go that route for a while.

The plan is to add a second 15-gallon Kettle with a false bottom, so I can mash in the bag (just makes draining easier) and direct fire the kettle to do step mashing and not worry about bruning the bag, and use a pump to circulate while raising the temps (not sure you will gain much by circulating all of the time since BIAB effiency is already in the mid 70s), then pump into the boil kettle after mashing is complete. I already have a dual burner cooker, so no need to lift either kettle off the burner until it's empty.

ryandlf said:

Will the mash still take about 60 minutes as usual

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I just did a 30 min mash with good results. Gravity powered. (look up starch/iodine test.)

Hex said:

I just did a 30 min mash with good results. Gravity powered. (look up starch/iodine test.)

Click to expand...

I'll just point you to the BBR Conversion Experiement Podcast. While starch conversion might be done, you still continue to extract sugars and increase the gravity of your wort during a longer mash.

With 2 kettles and one burner, you have to think about how and when you are going to transfer one kettle off the burner and put the other on. Messing around with moving several gallons of hot liquid and 10-20 lbs of grain isn't going to be fun. If you can lift the bag, it's easier (IMHO) to just pick the bag up than to have to move a kettle around.

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I won't have to lift anything and it will be fully automated. This is the reason for using recirculation during the mash. That way I can use the one burner under the boil kettle and a pump to maintain the mash temperature. When the mash is done I will cut the pump off and gravity will drain the wort to the boil kettle and I proceed with the boil.

ryandlf said:

I won't have to life anything and it will be fully automated. This is the reason for using recirculation during the mash. That way I can use the one burner under the boil kettle and a pump to maintain the mash temperature. When the mash is done I will cut the pump off and gravity will drain the wort to the boil kettle and I proceed with the boil.

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Why gravity drain if you've got a pump? With a few Camlocks and some silicone hose you can move the wort wherever you want with more speed. Just a thought.

The plan is to use only one pump. Which will be pushing liquid from the kettle to the tun. If I wanted to reverse the process i'd have to switch the hoses around which would take away from the automation. I guess I could use two pumps in the future though...

You could always put in some ball valves and "T's" to divert flow. Although depending on the cost 2 pumps may just be cheaper.

wyzazz said:

I'll just point you to the BBR Conversion Experiement Podcast. While starch conversion might be done, you still continue to extract sugars and increase the gravity of your wort during a longer mash.

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I got good results, not great, 75% when I'm usually in the mid 80's, but it made great beer in less amount of time. I got the idea from a maltster on pro brewer..There are many ways to make beer.

Given that your malt is not modified to the level that British malt tends to be, but still highly modified enough to avoid having to do a protein rest, for best results regarding head retention, flavor stability, drinkability and the overall gustatory impression of a beer, try mashing-in at 144 F, resting for 15 - 30 min, raising the temperature (~2 F per min) to 162 F and resting there for 15 - 30 min (as suggested, test with iodine here), then mashing out at ~172 F.

I'm a direct fire, stirred mash, brewer.

ryandlf said:

So just to clarify and help myself understand this process. I'll continue to use the 5 gallon batch mentioned in the first post as an example. I bring 7.5 gallons of water to mashing temp of about 152 (for example) in the mash tun, add the grain, stir, and immediately drain the mash tun into the boil kettle while I pump the liquid back into the mash tun at the same time. From here I should be able to sample and test the wort and the mashing process is complete once I achieve my target OG. When complete I will simply turn the recirculating pump off and allow the wort to drain into the kettle at which point I will begin the standard boil.

So there will be no need to vorlauf since the bed should already be settled due to the constant recirculating?

Will I still be able to produce wort with an OG above 1.050? I have read in a couple places that the Brutus 20 method can't make "bigger" beers.

Using this method should I still raise the temperature of the wort to around 165 - 170 when I plan on collecting the running like I would sparge water?

Click to expand...

You've just described Brutus 20.

Because you've got wort constantly flowing through both the kettle and MLT, you can effectively do batches that are much bigger than the MLT could otherwise hold. Just make sure your kettle's big enough for the predicted pre-boil volume though! There's nothing special about bigger beers either. I do 1.070 and bigger beers all the time and regularly see 70% or better efficiency. Heating up for a mashout makes a lot of sense: 1. The wort will flow better. 2. You gotta add the heat anyway eventually to boil so why not? No extra effort involved.

I have a 2 vessel system. With a bucket as a holding tank. Here are the steps I use:

1. Heat water to 180
2. Transfer to MLT and add grains.
3. Wait till temp stabilizes at mash temp, start recirculation for 60 minutes.
4. Drain first running into bottling bucket.
5. Add sparge water and stir, wait 10 minutes,recirculate for a minute and drain into bucket.
6. Repeat step 5.
7. Empty bucket into hlt/kettle and start boil.( empty of water at this point)
8. Collect third running into bucket and add to kettle.
9. Boil for 60 minutes then chill and pitch yeast.

This is with one burner (electric elements) and one pump. I average upper 70's efficiency. I could do without the lifting but I'm young yet so it doesn't really bother me to much.

This looks like a great process, good clarity good efficiency.
I work BIAb currently, and I think this might be my next step, but make it even easier, by have the MLT and the HLT and continue with BIAB, and transferring to a dedicated kettle.

My aim is to get better clarity, and one of the ways is a clearer wort.
I get 70% no sparge no Re-Circ currently.