So who's worked in their main electrical panel?

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kevreh said:
Seems like thats how it is about a lot of things....seeing it done in person takes the mystery away and simplifies things. Your lucky you have a neighbor with this knowledge.
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He refuses to drink anything but Miller Lite so I can't pay him in homebrew. The good thing is he charges one case of Miller per beer he drinks while working and refuses to take money for the supplies he uses as he has a shed full of odds and ends from previous jobs.

BTW, for him, his beers are maintenance to keep the hands steady :)...hmm maybe :(
 
Hmmm. Sounds like a pretty good trade. Most electricians cost in excess of $100/hr and a case of BMC is, what, $15? Unless he's slamming back a brew every few minutes, you come out ahead.

Maybe you should try to tempt him with a cream ale batch, or even a blonde. :)
 
Bensiff said:
My neighbor is an electrician and he wired in the 30 amp 220 for my brew panel and a few other circuits as well. I decided I wanted a 30 amp GFCI breaker instead of the GFCI being on an inline cord or built into the control panel so, having had my neighbor showed me the ropes I wired it in hot. Pretty easy actually, but I would have never attempted it had I not had a professional electrician teach me how to do it in the first place.
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As a kid, I watched my father - on several occasions - change out a light switch or receptacle in our home without killing the circuit. I'd always think to myself, "that's a pretty dumb thing to do." But recently, I found myself doing the same thing with a light socket in my basement... unfortunately, I'm more like my father than I ever thought I'd be, but fortunately, he taught me that if you're going to be dumb, don't make it a habit and at least be as safe as dumb can be.

Needless to say, I won't ever be doing the same thing in front of my own kids.
 
mvanwie said:
As a kid, I watched my father - on several occasions - change out a light switch or receptacle in our home without killing the circuit. I'd always think to myself, "that's a pretty dumb thing to do." But recently, I found myself doing the same thing with a light socket in my basement... unfortunately, I'm more like my father than I ever thought I'd be, but fortunately, he taught me that if you're going to be dumb, don't make it a habit and at least be as safe as dumb can be.

Needless to say, I won't ever be doing the same thing in front of my own kids.
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My father-in-law did the same thing. After I learned he was careful to not touch the hot and neutral or ground at the same time I was a little less freaked out by it.
 
I spoke my peace earlier but I feel I should add to it. In my town a licensed electrician must do the work with 1 exception. The homeowner can do the work but MUST follow all local codes. He then MUST get the work blessed by an electrician AND the building inspector. At the very least you must know all electrical codes. That means wire gauge, wire color, where to place outlets and lights, not burying boxes behind walls and insulation, etc. If it doesn't get inspected you are liable for anything that goes wrong even if you no longer own the home if it was deemed negligent! Something to keep in mind.
 
^^^
Right. Putting in the breaker and connecting the wires to the breaker(s) and appropriate busbars is the easy part. Running the cable and all the crossing the Ts and dotting the Is sort of things according to code is usually the tricky part.
 
I wouldn't say getting to code is the "tricky part". Code is the absolute bare minimum that can be relied upon for safety. Meeting code shouldn't be the end goal. Doing good work should be.

It's odd that your town requires an electrician to approve of a homeowner's work. That would kill any reason for you to do your own, as no electrician is going to bless your work (and take on your liability) without getting the pay for the full job.
 
You miss the point. The point wasn't to do the bare minimum, but the detail in passing an inspection. Things like putting the staple within six inches of the box, distance of the cable from the edge of framing members, etc. etc. etc.. all those little details that can/will fail inspections.
 
whoaru99 said:
You miss the point. The point wasn't to do the bare minimum, but the detail in passing an inspection. Things like putting the staple within six inches of the box, distance of the cable from the edge of framing members, etc. etc. etc.. all those little details that can/will fail inspections.
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You miss the point. Code is the bare minimum required for safety. You can certainly do better than code.

Within six inches of the box? What local code do you have that goes beyond NEC 334.30?

334.30 Securing and Supporting Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be supported and secured by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m (4 1⁄2 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every outlet box. junction box, cabinet, or fitting. Flat cables shall not be stapled on edge. Sections of cable protected from physical damage by raceway shall not be required to be secured within the raceway.

(A) Horizontal Runs Through Holes and Notches. In other than vertical runs, cables installed in accordance with 300.4 shall be considered to be supported and secured where such support does not exceed 1.4-m (4 1⁄2-ft) intervals and the nonmetallic-sheathed cable is securely fastened in place by an approved means within 300 mm (12 in.) of each box, cabinet, conduit body, or other nonmetallicsheathed cable termination.

FPN: See 314.17(C) for support where nonmetallic boxes are used

(B) Unsupported Cables. Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be permitted to be unsupported where the cable:

(1) Is fished between access points through concealed spaces in finished buildings or structures and supporting is impracticable.

(2) Is not more than 1.4 m (4 1 ⁄2 ft) from the last point of cable support to the point of connection to a luminaire or other piece of electrical equipment and the cable and point of connection are within an accessible ceiling
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Thank you. That exactly makes my point. I was wondering if someone would catch that.

Here is the point again...

It's the little details that people aren't aware of that are most likely to fail the inspection when you're DIY wiring. Not the easy part of plugging the breaker into the panel and screwing down a few wires.
 
Was thinking if this thread at work today. Changing a panel feed from one transformer to another, my foreman tells me "the day is almost over, lets just cut the feed live and put the new feed in so we dont have to turn the other two panels off". Not a smart move but we very carefully cut the live feed and safed it off. A number of bad things could have happened but we changed over with no problems.
 
mikeysab said:
Was thinking if this thread at work today. Changing a panel feed from one transformer to another, my foreman tells me "the day is almost over, lets just cut the feed live and put the new feed in so we dont have to turn the other two panels off". Not a smart move but we very carefully cut the live feed and safed it off. A number of bad things could have happened but we changed over with no problems.
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Ah, the ol' "let's cut corners and risk our safety so we can get home a few minutes earlier... if we survive". Classic.
 
Quick question for the electricians out there. I have a split bus panel. The breaker controlling the lower half is 60a 240v. I have a number of single pole breakers below it, collectively exceeding the 60a on each side. Is that something that HAS to be brought up to code...or is this "normal" since each breaker on each leg won't be used 100% at the same time.

Thanks
 
BadNewsBrewery said:
Ah, the ol' "let's cut corners and risk our safety so we can get home a few minutes earlier... if we survive". Classic.
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As if its any different than driving 70 mph hour in a 55 to get home a few minutes earlier and risking the life of others as well as yourself. Classic.
 
kevreh said:
Quick question for the electricians out there. I have a split bus panel. The breaker controlling the lower half is 60a 240v. I have a number of single pole breakers below it, collectively exceeding the 60a on each side. Is that something that HAS to be brought up to code...or is this "normal" since each breaker on each leg won't be used 100% at the same time.

Thanks
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FWIW, the sum of breaker ratings on each leg of my 150A panel exceeds 150A, and the panel has been officially inspected at this fill level.
 
BadNewsBrewery said:
Ah, the ol' "let's cut corners and risk our safety so we can get home a few minutes earlier... if we survive". Classic.
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Well, we worked as safely as possible and whoever was in the room was there willingly. Still, we shoulda shut the feed down. All went well, so hooray for us....i guess.
 
In the film industry we do tie ins to 220 and 240 all the time. We also run cable and connect cam lock connectors to 480v+ that are hot as well. The key is not having a load on the voltage when you're making your connections. Remember, amps kill not voltage. Voltage can still rock your world, but amps do the real damage. When we tie in to a live bus bar, we use trico cam lock connectors. We stand on an apple box coated with rubber. We separate the bus bars with pieces of cardboard coated in rubber. Then we tie a rope around the waist of the technician, just to ensure if the technician gets locked on we can pull him off. We also check the voltage and amps with a multimeter. Begin bringing breakers down to reduce thr amperage to be ultra safe. Make your connections starting with ground, neutral, then hot legs. Very safe if you know what you're doing. We Dont screw around in the film industry. Safety always trumps everything else. I got 220'd a few years back due to some bad shielding on some 4/0t cable. It blew me back 10 feet. There was something like 200 amps on the blue and red legs of our rig. I was very lucky to be alive. Since then I've become very very aware of the condition of the equipment.
 
dannylerch said:
In the film industry we do tie ins to 220 and 240 all the time. We also run cable and connect cam lock connectors to 480v+ that are hot as well. The key is not having a load on the voltage when you're making your connections. Remember, amps kill not voltage. Voltage can still rock your world, but amps do the real damage. When we tie in to a live bus bar, we use trico cam lock connectors. We stand on an apple box coated with rubber. We separate the bus bars with pieces of cardboard coated in rubber. Then we tie a rope around the waist of the technician, just to ensure if the technician gets locked on we can pull him off. We also check the voltage and amps with a multimeter. Begin bringing breakers down to reduce thr amperage to be ultra safe. Make your connections starting with ground, neutral, then hot legs. Very safe if you know what you're doing. We Dont screw around in the film industry. Safety always trumps everything else. I got 220'd a few years back due to some bad shielding on some 4/0t cable. It blew me back 10 feet. There was something like 200 amps on the blue and red legs of our rig. I was very lucky to be alive. Since then I've become very very aware of the condition of the equipment.
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:eek: That sound safe, but humorous...the rope thing. So, why did you get knocked back, versus other stories where people can't let go?

I've always wondered that, say you have a hot 120 or 240 line with no load on it, and you grab the hot and neutral. How bad will you get shocked since there's no load? Also, in theory, you can grab the hot *as long as your not grounded* right? Just curious.
 
dannylerch said:
If you have any doubts, hire a professional, preferably an electrician who is in a union. Because if they aren't union, they are probably a hack.
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+1
As a union electrician. I've gone in after many "rats" throw stuff together and have to fix a lot of stuff. I stopped reading after this post. Not sure if anyone brought it up yet. But any power u have in a house is enough to kill you. Only takes 5 milli amps to kill you. "Or about the same power as a nightlight! Just be careful and what i tell most new apprentises "if you unconfortable with anything electrical then don't mess with it".

Cheers
 
kevreh said:
:eek: That sound safe, but humorous...the rope thing. So, why did you get knocked back, versus other stories where people can't let go?

I've always wondered that, say you have a hot 120 or 240 line with no load on it, and you grab the hot and neutral. How bad will you get shocked since there's no load? Also, in theory, you can grab the hot *as long as your not grounded* right? Just curious.
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In the film business we run very large lights that pull a lot of amps. It really depends, I've heard stories where people get locked on, and I've heard stories and have experienced the blow back. It really just depends on what muscles are engaged by the shock.

"I have heard that D/C current simply locks up your muscles so you cannot disengage from the power source, and so will simply be locked up until you die from respiratory failure. A/C, will seize up your muscles, but as the current switches cycles, the current momentarily switches off, so causing your muscles to react against the seizure and throw you off.

It may also possibly be influenced by which muscle groups are effected (with Tazers, depending on which part of the body is hit, it can cause the body simply to go rigid, or to get thrown into the air from muscle contractions, or simply to collapse onto the floor - although Tazers are somewhat more specific in their actions than indiscriminate electric shocks)."

Does that make sense? There is no real way to predict what muscles the shock will trigger. Could lock your hands on, or it could cause your legs and core to spasm, throwing you across the room.
 
kevreh said:
I've always wondered that, say you have a hot 120 or 240 line with no load on it, and you grab the hot and neutral. How bad will you get shocked since there's no load?
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You're going to get nailed just as hard (or harder) without a load on the circuit.

Also, in theory, you can grab the hot *as long as your not grounded* right? Just curious.
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It's not theory. It's true. There has to be a complete circuit for current to flow. That said, it's a dangerous, perhaps deadly, game to play if you don't know what you're doing. A path to ground can present itself in unexpected ways and then maybe you're toast.
 
whoaru99 said:
You're going to get nailed just as hard (or harder) without a load on the circuit.



It's not theory. It's true. There has to be a complete circuit for current to flow. That said, it's a dangerous, perhaps deadly, game to play if you don't know what you're doing. A path to ground can present itself in unexpected ways and then maybe you're toast.
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You're right. Its simple really. When you touch two leads you complete the circuit. Just Dont do it. This is why I separate bus bars with dividers when adding breakers or tie ins. I disagree about getting hit harder if there is no load. Voltage is voltage, it stays relatively consistent and only drops as you add a load. The load is what kills you. It only takes .7 mili amps to stop your heart. Its because voltage typically flows at 60hz. The human heart beats roughly the same. This is one factor why humans make such good conductors. As a journeyman I can tell you that if you touch a 220 circuit without a load as opposed to one with 100 amps on it, the one with 100amps will kick your ass way worse.

So pop quiz everyone, what is more dangerous? 10,000 volts at .01 mili amps, or 110 volts at 30 amps?
 
dannylerch said:
I can tell you that if you touch a 220 circuit without a load as opposed to one with 100 amps on it, the one with 100amps will kick your ass way worse.
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Why would touching loaded circuit hurt you worse?

Typically the voltage on a loaded circuit will be slightly less, although not significantly so if the circuit is sized properly.
 
kal said:
Err, a human heart does not beat 60 times/second.

Kal
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Correct, I was wrong about the beats. Its the micro electronic system of the heart that is very similar. IE electrolytes. I've had a few too many home brews today.
 
whoaru99 said:
Why would touching loaded circuit hurt you worse?

Typically the voltage on a loaded circuit will be slightly less, although not significantly so if the circuit is sized properly.
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Because higher amperage means the intensity of the current is higher. It is common knowledge.

Here is a simple way to see for yourself. Take a lamp, switch it to off. Plug it in to a 20 amp circuit. See, there is a passive patch into a hot circuit. Now un plug it and plug it back in to the circuit but make sure the lamp is turned on. You should see a small arc. Now you can see how much more volatile current is with a load. Now try to imagine that traveling through one arm, through your heart and lungs, and out through the other hand. That small arc is just a light bulb. Now imagine patching into a breaker box with your fridge, dish washer, washing machine, hair dryer, house lights, etc pulling a load. You definitely Dont want that because all that amperage runs through that box in your house. Make sense now?
 
No, it still doesn't make sense.

If I go touch one of the main lugs in my breaker panel and complete a path to ground I'm going to get the same shock, within a couple volts, regardless if there is zero electric load in my house at the time or if my 18kW of electric heat is on.
 
I hear the "its not voltage that kills, its amps!" line a lot, and while it is true most people seem to mis-interpert it.

6-10mA through your heart can kill, however you need significant voltage to produce 6-10mA across your heart. So there are many factors involved, including the path the current may take through your body. Grab both terminals of a AAA battery, did you survive? Surely a AAA battery can supply more then 10mA. So unless your dealing with circuits fused at 6mA, its the voltage that is going to detail the risk.

An unloaded circuit is capable of just as much damage as a loaded one, although loaded ones can become more dangerous when connecting/disconnecting. The only real difference is when you break the connection the arcing that will occur, if you touch both leads the damage will be the same.

EDIT: I said 6-10mA because it is mentioned the most, most studies have found this to be much higher though (50-100mA).
 
dannylerch said:
preferably an electrician who is in a union. Because if they aren't union, they are probably a hack.
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dcarroll86 said:
+1
As a union electrician. I've gone in after many "rats" throw stuff together and have to fix a lot of stuff.
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So what do you union guys say about this?

dannylerch said:
As a journeyman I can tell you that if you touch a 220 circuit without a load as opposed to one with 100 amps on it, the one with 100amps will kick your ass way worse.
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Union or not, means nothing. There are plenty of union guys out there that know pretty much nothing. As well as there are plenty of non-union guys out there that know just as much as a union guy.

What you should have said to the OP was "Hire an electrician that knows what he is doing."
 
thadius856 said:
A word about this panel of yours.

I like that you have secondary surge suppression in there. Two installed, in fact. However, it's not installed properly and might not function when the time comes.

Those coiled white neutrals tied into the bus at the bottom need to be uncoiled and trimmed as short as possible while still connecting to that bus safely. Surges always take the path of least resistance to ground, and we want those neutrals to be that path. It would be a shame for a surge to go into the house searching and exit through electronics.

Or perhaps I'm just reading them wrong at 6 am with no glasses. But they sure look like secondary surges to me.
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I'm pretty sure those are Square D Homeline GFI breakers, not surge suppression. If it were TVSS, the coiled neutral would be an issue, but if it is GFCI then the coiled neutral is not a problem. Without WroxBrew weighing in, we won't know for sure.
 
Huff360 said:
I'm pretty sure those are Square D Homeline GFI breakers, not surge suppression. If it were TVSS, the coiled neutral would be an issue, but if it is GFCI then the coiled neutral is not a problem. Without WroxBrew weighing in, we won't know for sure.
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Perhaps, but I have a Square D (edit: Homeline) load center with GFCIs, and mine don't look like those. As you said, we can only know if he comes back and posts.

dannylerch said:
Its because voltage typically flows at 60hz. The human heart beats roughly the same. This is one factor why humans make such good conductors. As a journeyman I can tell you that if you touch a 220 circuit without a load as opposed to one with 100 amps on it, the one with 100amps will kick your ass way worse.
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What the hell is this? Humans make good conductors because we're big bags of salty water.
 
Huff360 said:
So what do you union guys say about this?



Union or not, means nothing. There are plenty of union guys out there that know pretty much nothing. As well as there are plenty of non-union guys out there that know just as much as a union guy.

What you should have said to the OP was "Hire an electrician that knows what he is doing."
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I can't speak for the industrial/commercial electrician. But I don't even think a non union linesman exists. There are also no real good electrics in the film business that are worth a damn.

The thing about being union is, there are credentials and codes of safety that exceed the bare minimum of what the law see's fit for your non union guys. I worked non union is my industry for several years before going union. Once I did, I started working with bigger lights, more power, much more sophisticated equipment, and also many safety classes, etc. I had to work in the union for 2 years before I was considered a journeyman.

Being an electrician in the film industry is much more dangerous than being a commercial or industrial electric too. Because we deal with a hell of a lot of power. IE, 1.5 MEGAWATT generators, 480v runs. 220, we run dozens giant hot 18,000 watt lights that weight 150 pounds. Rigs that are pulling upwards of 1200 AMPS. We also run miles of 4/0t cable three phase, 9 wire and 5 wire. We have to put it far away because the sound department can't hear the generators when they are shooting scenes. And also we are expected to work very very quickly because the producers are trying to keep a schedule. I also work up to 60-90 hours a week, depending on the movie.
 
thadius856 said:
Perhaps, but I have a Square D (edit: Homeline) load center with GFCIs, and mine don't look like those. As you said, we can only know if he comes back and posts.



What the hell is this? Humans make good conductors because we're big bags of salty water.
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what do you think salty water is? Electrolytes. You can charge a iphone with a potato soaked in Gatorade
 
dannylerch said:
what do you think salty water is? Electrolytes. You can charge a iphone with a potato soaked in Gatorade
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I called out the quoted text where a poster claimed humans conduct electricity well because our hearts beat near 60 hz. Maybe you read my post too fast?

Edit: I see that's you I quoted. Care to explain how heart rate affects conductivity?
 
Some people have theorized that the human body cycles at an average of 70 Hz at rest. That is our bodies resonant frequency. AC current cycles at 60 HZ. Electrolytes are carried through "salty water" as you put it. We aren't the greatest conductors but our resistance changes drastically when wet. Look it up for yourself. The heart beats on average 60-80 BPM. Point being, is that our body works in cycles of micro electromagnetic activity. Its the same principle why lightning will hit a running generator in a thunderstorm.
 
dannylerch said:
Some people have theorized that the human body cycles at an average of 70 Hz at rest. That is our bodies resonant frequency. AC current cycles at 60 HZ.
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I can find nothing related to this after 15 minutes of searching Google.

This was certainly a fun article though: http://www.eplasty.com/index.php?op...ticle&id=345&catid=170:volume-09-eplasty-2009

dannylerch said:
Electrolytes are carried through "salty water" as you put it. We aren't the greatest conductors but our resistance changes drastically when wet. Look it up for yourself.
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This was never disputed.

dannylerch said:
The heart beats on average 60-80 BPM. Point being, is that our body works in cycles of micro electromagnetic activity. Its the same principle why lightning will hit a running generator in a thunderstorm.
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I fail to see the connection between the two. What does arcing current from clouds to ground have to do with the conductivity of the human body?
 
Indeed, its gone down a few different rabbit holes. But what the hey, its' an interesting read. :cross: Of course, I've been waiting for the union vs. non-union comments to turn into a tap room brawl.
 
thadius856 said:
I can find nothing related to this after 15 minutes of searching Google.

This was certainly a fun article though: http://www.eplasty.com/index.php?op...ticle&id=345&catid=170:volume-09-eplasty-2009



This was never disputed.



I fail to see the connection between the two. What does arcing current from clouds to ground have to do with the conductivity of the human body?
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It is all the same. A generator is a small system of electromagnetic activity. The human body is the same except an an even more exponentially smaller level. Resonant frequency of a 120/110 circuit is very close to the resonant frequency of a human body. My only point is that it is super easy to become part of a circuit. Safety first folks. How is that hard to understand?
 

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