To yeast start, or not to yeast start....

My buddy and I are going to brew side-by-side on Sunday. He's brewing a Dead Guy Ale clone and I'm brewing a Imperial RyePA. I know I should definitely have a starter since I'm shooting for 9% on this beer, but we only have 1 yeast starter flask. My question is, does that Dead Guy clone have to have one? or would it ferment up just fine without it?

Thanks! Cheers!

you can use lots of things for a starter..doesn't have to be a flask...just clean/sanitized... 2 liter growlers work great. could also use a plastic 2 liter bottle, milk jug, etc...

and yes, the dead guy clone should have one...

Its right on the edge. 1.065-ish OG right? I tend to think 1.05 and below could be done with or without a starter depending on what you are looking to get out of it.

1.060+ and I always make a starter. Just don't want to risk a long lag time and/or stuck fermentation from inadequate numbers of yeasties.

You don't have to make starters with a stir plate and erlenmeyer you know. I don't have either and pitch large volumes of yeast with a 1 gallon carboy. True that the intermittent shaking method produces less yeast per volume, but its still leaps and bounds better than pitching a single pack or vial. You can use a growler too if you have one laying around.

cool, thanks guys...If I just make a yeast starter in a growler or 2 liter bottle, wouldn't I need a breathable cork or something? I thought that is what is on that flask my buddy has.

We've made 6 batches of beer now and I've never done a starter. my buddy did on the first one, but I wasn't there when he did it. My last beer was the NB Black IPA (OG 1.078) and I didn't do a starter...I'm a little worried about that, but after I thought about it I haven't moved it to a secondary, just left it sitting on the yeast cake in the primary...I don't know if that will help anything, but I figured it was worth a shot considering all I've read on this forum about how many people don't use secondaries.

drives_a_bike said:

cool, thanks guys...If I just make a yeast starter in a growler or 2 liter bottle, wouldn't I need a breathable cork or something? I thought that is what is on that flask my buddy has.

We've made 6 batches of beer now and I've never done a starter. my buddy did on the first one, but I wasn't there when he did it. My last beer was the NB Black IPA (OG 1.078) and I didn't do a starter...I'm a little worried about that, but after I thought about it I haven't moved it to a secondary, just left it sitting on the yeast cake in the primary...I don't know if that will help anything, but I figured it was worth a shot considering all I've read on this forum about how many people don't use secondaries.

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Just use a piece of sanitized foil. Spray it down good with star san. If you dont do starters you should use at least use 2 yeast packs.

ChaosStout said:

Just use a piece of sanitized foil. Spray it down good with star san. If you dont do starters you should use at least use 2 yeast packs.

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awesome! thanks for the help guys.

The fermentation on that Black IPA looked good, I guys we'll see how it turns out. dry hopping tonight.

Sounds like you got all the answers you need, but just for the heck of it... I agree! :cross:

I'm actually planning on doing a starter today for a brew session tomorrow, and I'm in the same boat as you. I'm doing the starter in a growler (no stir plate or other fancy equipment).

I'm opting for a rubber plug + airlock on my starter, but only because I happen to have one that fits the growler. If I didn't, I'd go the foil route too. Also, I have to transport it to my brother's house, so I figured the airlock would be safer.

Good luck!

I always make a starter no matter the OG. Just a habit. Unless I use dry yeast of course.

Check out www.stirstarters.com. Just picked up a stir plate and 2L flask. Very quick shipping and great quality. Can't wait to use it

onipar said:

Sounds like you got all the answers you need, but just for the heck of it... I agree! :cross:

I'm actually planning on doing a starter today for a brew session tomorrow, and I'm in the same boat as you. I'm doing the starter in a growler (no stir plate or other fancy equipment).

I'm opting for a rubber plug + airlock on my starter, but only because I happen to have one that fits the growler. If I didn't, I'd go the foil route too. Also, I have to transport it to my brother's house, so I figured the airlock would be safer.

Good luck!

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It is actually bad to use a rubber stopper and airlock. A starter needs all the oxygen it can get and if you put a rubber stopper in instead of foam or even better foil then the yeast won't get all the oxygen it needs.

Before I bought this stir plate I used growlers and plastic bottles and they worked great. The stir plate just allows for more oxygen to get into the starter and keep the yeast in suspension

well, my plans just changed...instead of Sunday, we're going to brew tomorrow night (Can't wait to break in my new floor burner with outdoor brewing!). so we're going to get these starters rolling asap, just have to wait for my buddies lunch break. I hope that's enough time for a starter...from everything I've read it looks like it should be.

h22lude said:

It is actually bad to use a rubber stopper and airlock. A starter needs all the oxygen it can get and if you put a rubber stopper in instead of foam or even better foil then the yeast won't get all the oxygen it needs.

Before I bought this stir plate I used growlers and plastic bottles and they worked great. The stir plate just allows for more oxygen to get into the starter and keep the yeast in suspension

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Really? Wow, thanks for the tip. I'll switch over to just using the foil instead. Cheers!

onipar said:

Really? Wow, thanks for the tip. I'll switch over to just using the foil instead. Cheers!

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You can definitely use the stopper but it is better to use sanitized foil. Just lightly cover the opening.

drives_a_bike said:

well, my plans just changed...instead of Sunday, we're going to brew tomorrow night (Can't wait to break in my new floor burner with outdoor brewing!). so we're going to get these starters rolling asap, just have to wait for my buddies lunch break. I hope that's enough time for a starter...from everything I've read it looks like it should be.

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That is fine. I did something similar with my last batch. Made a 1L starter in a growler with foil cover less than 24 hours before pitching it. Every time you walk by it, just give it a nice swirl. Fermentation took off over night like crazy.

I just watched this video that was posted for me by another member in a different thread. It's really educational, at least it was for me. This guy from Wyeast says it's pretty much unreasonable to make a 1 liter starter and that the most reproduction you'll get is up to 1.3 billion cells. He recommends at least a 2 liter starter. He starts talking starters at 11:10

JDFlow said:

I just watched this video that was posted for me by another member in a different thread. It's really educational, at least it was for me. This guy from Wyeast says it's pretty much unreasonable to make a 1 liter starter and that the most reproduction you'll get is up to 1.3 billion cells. He recommends at least a 2 liter starter. He starts talking starters at 11:10

Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEkwp_2Yezo

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I'll check it out at home.

I'm not saying he is wrong but I don't think making a 1L starter is unreasonable. That is all i make and it has worked great. I use Mr. Malty to calculate the size and it rarely calculates anything larger than 1L. It also has alot to do with the OG and the date of the yeast. Higher OG beers will need a bigger starter. Older yeast will also need a bigger starter. 2L starter isn't a bad thing, I just don't find it necessary for the beers I brew (usually OG<1.06).

h22lude said:

I'll check it out at home.

I'm not saying he is wrong but I don't think making a 1L starter is unreasonable. That is all i make and it has worked great. I use Mr. Malty to calculate the size and it rarely calculates anything larger than 1L. It also has alot to do with the OG and the date of the yeast. Higher OG beers will need a bigger starter. Older yeast will also need a bigger starter. 2L starter isn't a bad thing, I just don't find it necessary for the beers I brew (usually OG<1.06).

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I think he was saying that a 1L is unnecessary because their smack packs are built to ferment 5 gallon batches below 1.060. Apparently all a 1L does is shorten your fermentation lag time. But realistically it doesn't considering the day or two it takes to make the starter. I'm only speaking from limited experience though, so I could be wrong.

JDFlow said:

I think he was saying that a 1L is unnecessary because their smack packs are built to ferment 5 gallon batches below 1.060. Apparently all a 1L does is shorten your fermentation lag time. But realistically it doesn't considering the day or two it takes to make the starter. I'm only speaking from limited experience though, so I could be wrong.

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Both Wyeast Smack Packs and White Labs vials have roughly 100 billion cells (from their website). Both of those are when the package is new. As time goes on the cell count goes down as cells die. As the vial or smack pack gets older the bigger the starter should be to compensate for that.

Both the vial and smack pack have enough cells to pitch directly into a 5 gallon batch under 1.060 and it will ferment fine. Making a 1L starter will up the cell count 10 around 175 billion cells (again that is when the yeast is new). Having more cells will help reduce some off-flavors (typically acetaldehyde, apple flavor). Overpitching is a problem and can cause off-flavors but making a 1L starter won't be a problem with that for a 5 gallon batch.

So yes I agree you can pitch a smack pack or vial right into primary and be ok but it is better to make a starter. It will increase cell count and it will get the yeast working so when you pitch the starter your lag time will be very short.

That makes sense. I've also read that the more yeast you have the cleaner your beer will taste.

JDFlow said:

That makes sense. I've also read that the more yeast you have the cleaner your beer will taste.

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Yeast clean up after themselves so the more you have the more can clean up but you dont want to pitch too much because over pitching will cause its own off flavors.

Thanks for your help guys...We made our yeast starter on Friday around 5ish (I ended up using a cleaned and sanitized 66oz Ocean Spray bottle, and it did the trick nicely), we got a late start brewing on Saturday but it was okay since that just gave the starter some more time to do it's thing.

Ended up pitching the yeast at 1230 that night...I woke up at 8 on Sunday and that thing was bubbling up nicely! My first time doing a yeast starter and I can't believe I have done this every time...piece of cake!

I just ordered a wort chiller and decided to add a flask to the order as well. the Ocean Spray bottle worked fine, but I'd really rather just have the right equipment.

Again, Thanks a ton for you who helped out with answers and suggestions. I love this site

yeah, I didn't make a starter on my first couple of batches. Once I did it was a eureka moment. Should've been doing it from the start.

drives_a_bike said:

Thanks for your help guys...We made our yeast starter on Friday around 5ish (I ended up using a cleaned and sanitized 66oz Ocean Spray bottle, and it did the trick nicely), we got a late start brewing on Saturday but it was okay since that just gave the starter some more time to do it's thing.

Ended up pitching the yeast at 1230 that night...I woke up at 8 on Sunday and that thing was bubbling up nicely! My first time doing a yeast starter and I can't believe I have done this every time...piece of cake!

I just ordered a wort chiller and decided to add a flask to the order as well. the Ocean Spray bottle worked fine, but I'd really rather just have the right equipment.

Again, Thanks a ton for you who helped out with answers and suggestions. I love this site

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Congrats! Glad it worked out well. My own yeast starter, unfortunately, did not.

I followed all the instructions and the next day I took a hydro reading, and it was still 1.040. Luckily I had a yeast cake I was able to use (just pitched a fraction of the slurry directly into the wort).

I'm fairly certain the reason mine didn't work is that the yeast were too old. The yeast I used in the starter were washed yeast from October of last year. They'd been in a mason jar in the fridge. I had a feeling they weren't going to do the trick.