Kegging my first beer

I brewed a Schwarzbier some time back, and I'm getting ready to carb it up in my corny. How much/how long should I carb it?

I was looking at this chart
http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php
It's chilling at 40C, so I was thinking about 10 or 11 PSI. How long should I leave it at that PSI before I drink it? When should I turn the CO2 off, or should I leave it on?

Is 10 or 11 PSI considered the "set it and forget it" method or the force carb method? Which is better?

As you can tell, I'm a complete kegging noob. Any help would be great.

Everyone has their own opinions on what method is best, but I highly suggest using the "set it and forget it" method. Force carbing involves cranking the psi up to 30, shaking the keg to dissolve CO2, and then turning it back down to 10-11psi. You could save yourself a few days by doing this, but it's pretty tricky to get it down pat. Most of the time, you'll end up overcarbonating your beer and having to start all over again.

I didn't look at the chart, but if it tells you to carb at 10-11psi, then yes, it's "set it and forget it". Just hook the keg up, purge it by letting it fill and then pulling the pressure relief valve. Do this a few times and then forget about it for 2-3 weeks. It will be fine to drink after about 5 days, but the flavor will improve 10x if you wait 2-3 weeks for the carbonation to balance out. Either method you decide on (force carbonate or "SIAFI") will still wind up taking 2-3 weeks to fully balance out and taste great, so why bother with rushing it?

Leave the CO2 on at all times...even after it's carbonated. If you don't, it'll go flat.

Your method will work just fine. Just a couple corrections for Suthrncomfrt1884, "force carbonating" is the method of using pure co2 to carbonate beer, "natural carbonation" is carbonating beer using the co2 produced by yeast.

You can turn off the co2 once the beer is carbonated and you are not serving beer out of it. I do this when I will not be drinking a keg for a long time to make sure I do not spring a leak while I am out of town.

Set it and forget it chart: http://ebrew.com/primarynews/ct_carbonation_chart.htm

Not to Jack the thread but I'm in the same boat. Will be finished dry hopping and this will be my first kegged batch. I would like it carved by the superbowl feb7th and it won't e done dry hopping until the first. Can I just turn up the psi to like 30 for 8 hr. Then bring it down to the recommended chart pressure until gameday and have it carbed? Or am I looking at a shorter/longer time at 30 psi to acheive the desired volumes by the 7th?

netjunk1e said:

Your method will work just fine. Just a couple corrections for Suthrncomfrt1884, "force carbonating" is the method of using pure co2 to carbonate beer, "natural carbonation" is carbonating beer using the co2 produced by yeast.

You can turn off the co2 once the beer is carbonated and you are not serving beer out of it. I do this when I will not be drinking a keg for a long time to make sure I do not spring a leak while I am out of town.

Set it and forget it chart: http://ebrew.com/primarynews/ct_carbonation_chart.htm

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I realize force carbonation is the use of CO2, but I believe the use of the word "force" is appropriate for a beer using 30psi to carbonate it.

As for turning off CO2...it's not good for the beer. If you're just turning it off for one or two days, I guess it's fine...but leave it for a few weeks and see how the beer tastes. The CO2 should always be on to constantly balance out the CO2/beer as you pull pints.

Tilldeath said:

Not to Jack the thread but I'm in the same boat. Will be finished dry hopping and this will be my first kegged batch. I would like it carved by the superbowl feb7th and it won't e done dry hopping until the first. Can I just turn up the psi to like 30 for 8 hr. Then bring it down to the recommended chart pressure until gameday and have it carbed? Or am I looking at a shorter/longer time at 30 psi to acheive the desired volumes by the 7th?

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If there's one thing I've learned while homebrewing, it's that patience is key. I realize you want it for superbowl, but don't try to rush things to get it done. I'm serious when I say it will take 2-3 weeks to taste great. If you keg on the first, just "set it and forget it" and it'll be carbonated in about 5 days. I don't recommend 30psi because what happens if you overcarb it? You'll be drinking foamy, bitter beer....or you'll have to start all over again and waste another week.

Tilldeath said:

Not to Jack the thread but I'm in the same boat. Will be finished dry hopping and this will be my first kegged batch. I would like it carved by the superbowl feb7th and it won't e done dry hopping until the first. Can I just turn up the psi to like 30 for 8 hr. Then bring it down to the recommended chart pressure until gameday and have it carbed? Or am I looking at a shorter/longer time at 30 psi to acheive the desired volumes by the 7th?

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Here's my $0.02 from a n00b that just finished carbing his first batch. Since I desired a C02 of about 2.5 and the beer was still room temperature I initially set my pressure to 30 PSI when I put it into my keezer.

About six hours later I dropped the pressure to 12 PSI and purged the keg to release the extra pressure. I guess I probably could have just let the beer absorb the extra pressure and it would have equalized on it's own. I then tried rocking the keg for about 10 minutes. This got boring quickly.

I put it back in the freezer to sit and have been "testing" it daily. By about the third day after kegging it was beginning to be drinkable, and every day after that it's been getting better.

I will definitely be using the SIAFI method from now on. If you really want to rush one (Super Bowl, being a valid reason I think), then I would recommend getting your beer down to serving temp, then set your pressure to 10-12 PSI, lie the keg on it's side, put a good movie on your laptop, and start rocking. I'd rock for no more than an hour before putting it back in your freezer to cool for a couple hours, then rock again. Using this method there should be no harm in over-carbing your keg, but will encourage faster CO2 absorption.

P.S. I got the formula for calculating pressure, temp and CO volume from Beer Math Plus For those using Excel, drop the below formula in cell C5 and then put your Beer Temp (F) in cell C3, and your desired CO2 volume in cell C4 and this will tell you what pressure to set.

=-16.6999-0.0101059*C3+0.00116512*C3^2+0.173354*C3*C4+4.24267*C4-0.0684226*C4^2​

Tilldeath said:

Not to Jack the thread but I'm in the same boat. Will be finished dry hopping and this will be my first kegged batch. I would like it carved by the superbowl feb7th and it won't e done dry hopping until the first. Can I just turn up the psi to like 30 for 8 hr. Then bring it down to the recommended chart pressure until gameday and have it carbed? Or am I looking at a shorter/longer time at 30 psi to acheive the desired volumes by the 7th?

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When you are done dry hopping, bring it down to temperature, hit it with 30 psi and shake the piss out of it, After a few rounds of 30 psi and shaking, test the carbonation, you want a little under what you are looking for, since you should have about 5 days now, set it to the correct pressure and leave the co2 hooked up. It should be perfect by game day.

Thx for all the advice it really helps. So by hitting it with 30psi do you mean turn it to 30psi and wait until I don't hear anything, then shake for a few min. And set it up again, shake and check? I think prolly doing this I won't run a huge risk of over carbing as long as I only do it for say 2 min. At 30 psi 2x, right??? Then I'll set it for the 2 volumes per the calculator.

It took me about 5 or 6 times doing that to have a fully carbed beer. I would pressure the keg to 30 psi until I no longer heard gas flowing, disconnected it and shook it for a while, and repeated. I would say do it four times, then check for the carbonation level. Maybe do it after two also just to get a feel for how the method works.

Also, if you ever to end up over carbing a beer, it is easy to fix, just release the pressure in the keg every few hours until you are back to the level you desire.

I'll laugh when your pouring foam for the superbowl.

Suthrncomfrt1884 said:

I realize force carbonation is the use of CO2, but I believe the use of the word "force" is appropriate for a beer using 30psi to carbonate it.

As for turning off CO2...it's not good for the beer. If you're just turning it off for one or two days, I guess it's fine...but leave it for a few weeks and see how the beer tastes. The CO2 should always be on to constantly balance out the CO2/beer as you pull pints.

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First, the "set it and forget it" method is forcing CO2 into solution with pressure just like high pressure and shaking is, just at a slower rate. They are both methods of force carbonating. Just because you don't like the industry standard terminology doesn't make it invalid.

Second, he specifically said that it's ok to turn off the gas if you're not serving it, so your last statement about needing it to balance the pressure as you pull pints is completely moot. He is 100% correct, you can shut off the CO2 to carbonated beer without any consequences as long as you're not serving out of it.

wildwest450 said:

I'll laugh when your pouring foam for the superbowl.

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+1000 to this. I always find it amazing that I've been kegging for years now and when I recommend someone use the "SIAFI" method, they ignore the advice because they're in a hurry.

AGAIN....if you have 5 days before you need to serve, you'll be fine with "SIAFI".

Hopefully this post from Bobby M will assist you however you decide to carbonate your brew.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/keg-force-carbing-methods-illustrated-73328/

Scimmia said:

First, the "set it and forget it" method is forcing CO2 into solution with pressure just like high pressure and shaking is, just at a slower rate. They are both methods of force carbonating. Just because you don't like the industry standard terminology doesn't make it invalid.

Second, he specifically said that it's ok to turn off the gas if you're not serving it, so your last statement about needing it to balance the pressure as you pull pints is completely moot. He is 100% correct, you can shut off the CO2 to carbonated beer without any consequences as long as you're not serving out of it.

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As I've already stated...I realize it's ALWAYS concidered force carbonating. I'm not trying to rewrite brewing dialogue here, just stating my opinions. And I never said it was invalid. I just prefer to ignore that method of carbonating all together.

As for no ill effects off turning off CO2 when not dispensing... I just can't agree with you.

My first three times kegging, I used the method you talk about. Every time, I ended up with a flat keg of beer after about 2 months. I don't drink most days, but on the weekend I will have a few pints off my kegs. I would only turn my CO2 on to push beer out of the keg and as soon as I was done, I'd turn it off. I had no leaks in my system, and I had plenty of CO2.

If he carbonates for 5-7 days, and then turns off the CO2 once it's carbonated, it doesn't mean his beer is balanced. It means it's carbonated. There's still plenty of CO2 that can be dissolved into the beer. It needs to stay on gas for at least 3 weeks. And then at that point, I could see your statement MAYBE being legit. But everytime he pulls a pint, CO2 is let out of solution, meaning the keg is now unbalanced.

I'm not going to argue about it. I'm speaking from experience and too many flat kegs because of bad advice. You point me to some published papers or books that say it's okay to turn the gas off, and I'll gladly retract my statements. There's plenty of ways to do things in homebrewing...I'm just saying...what's the point of turning off the CO2? It's not like you're wasting anything once the keg is balanced.

shake it at 20 when it's cold. then set and forget you will be fine. shaking at 30 is asking for trouble...

trust me, I shook a cold keg on Friday (the 15th) at 20 psi, left it in the fridge for about 4 hours relieved the head pressure, set it to 12.

Saturday night (16th) the keg was run empty by all the people at my house.

trust me it works.

After doing a little research, I did find a few pages that claim "if a keg has been carbonating for more than a month" then it's okay to take it off gas so you don't risk overcarbonating. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you though...are you saying that it's okay to take it off as soon as it's carbonated, or after a month? The latter, I can agree with.

Suthrncomfrt1884 said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you though...are you saying that it's okay to take it off as soon as it's carbonated, or after a month? The latter, I can agree with.

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We agree, then. To me, the beer isn't finished carbonating until it reaches equilibrium, so I don't called it carbonated (past tense).

I don't wait a month, though. For the record, I shake my kegs, but I do it at the correct pressure for the temperature. So if I'm at serving temp already, I would set it for ~12 PSI or whatever then shake. This gets a large portion of the CO2 needed for carbonation into the beer very quickly without the risk of over carbonating. It then gets to equilibrium in a much shorter time.

Scimmia said:

We agree, then. To me, the beer isn't finished carbonating until it reaches equilibrium, so I don't called it carbonated (past tense).

I don't wait a month, though. For the record, I shake my kegs, but I do it at the correct pressure for the temperature. So if I'm at serving temp already, I would set it for ~12 PSI or whatever then shake. This gets a large portion of the CO2 needed for carbonation into the beer very quickly without the risk of over carbonating. It then gets to equilibrium in a much shorter time.

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Shaking the kegs isn't a method that I'm against. I don't personally do it, but that's because I have enough beer on tap that I'm not worried about drinking a new one right away. What I don't like is the 30+psi that some people recommend. As the link above shows...it doesn't really make sense to risk overcarbonation if it's still going to take 3 weeks to get good beer.

Suthrncomfrt1884 said:

I'm not going to argue about it. I'm speaking from experience and too many flat kegs because of bad advice. You point me to some published papers or books that say it's okay to turn the gas off, and I'll gladly retract my statements. There's plenty of ways to do things in homebrewing...I'm just saying...what's the point of turning off the CO2? It's not like you're wasting anything once the keg is balanced.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_pressure

Physics is a *****... If you keg is going flat, you have a leak.

netjunk1e said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_pressure

Physics is a *****... If you keg is going flat, you have a leak.

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I know nothing about physics, and since this isn't in a homebrewing related dialogue, I'm going to pass on reading it. Besides, wikipedia is not a reliable source of information, whether it's correct or not.

I'm not sure if you're trying to get an attitude with me, but you should just drop it. I'm not sure what I did to provoke you, so I'll just end our argument here by saying I don't care. My kegs don't leak, I've tested them and know for a fact they're good since most of them were bought new.

Just to get the correct information out there:

We are assuming this is a closed system, therefore no inputs or outputs. The keg has been fully carbonated and is disconnected from the gas input. Modeling this is a two phase, two component system, CO2 and Water.

There is a certain amount of CO2 dissolved in solution, a cetrain amount of CO2 in the head space.

The law governing this system is Henry's law (William Henry 1803):


where pa, is the partial pressure of co2 in the gas phase, xa is the mole fraction of co2 in the liquid phase, and Ha(T) is the Henry's constant which is a function of temperature only.

Now in this closed system, with a constant temperature, there is nothing to change the distribution of CO2 in the system. xa is going to stay the same, this the beer will remain at the same level of CO2.


If what you believe were true, every keg shipped in the world would be flat, since in shipping and storage there is no CO2 supply to each keg.

What you could have been experiencing is that you may have been turning the CO2 on to push the beer, which causes a shock int he pressure of the CO2 in the head space, the mole fraction of CO2 in the liquid phase will not change in that period of time, the diffusion constant is too low. If you do not allow the pressure in the keg to return to the input pressure set by the regulator, you will have less pressure in the head than before. This will in turn cause the mole fraction to change to meet the new equilibrium condition stated by Henry's Law.

Sources:
Elementary Principles of Chemical Processes, Felder and Rousseau, Third Edition, 1943, P. 257

Here's my question though...

Let's say this keg is hooked up to a tap, as most of our beers are... We've got a liquid hose connected to a typical tap. Are we sure that absolutely nothing escapes from the keg through these points with the assumption that there's not leaks at typical points (hose clamps, seals, etc)? I know for a fact my kegs don't have leaks... but obviously somewhere in the system, something is causing a loss of pressure over extended periods of time.

Then you have a system leak, It is in the gas side because you would definably know if it was on the liquid. Get some snoop and check those fittings.

I guess I didn't think that one through completely for the liquid side...haha!

I don't have any leaks.... I may have had some in the beginning, but I've never had an issue since those first three kegs. As I said though, I continuously leave my CO2 connected and on at all times. I've checked my fittings and don't have any leaks.

Oh well...I suppose I'll leave this one alone.