WLP090-San Diego Super Yeast Performance

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ahurd110

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Hey all,

I pitched a batch of Imperial Red Ale with 2 vials of WLP 090 roughly 2 weeks ago. OG was 1.072 and the fermentation took a good 24hrs to get going. After 10 days of continuous airlock activity the krausen finally dropped out and the gravity was only at 1.020, for an attenuation of 71%. I mashed at 151, and also used a yeast advertised as a bigger wlp001 so I was expecting much more out of it....I had heard stories of huge attenuation after only 3 days of fermentation, yet the result I got was pale in comparison to s-05. Have other people seen tremendous results from this super yeast? Im curious to know if something went wrong with mine or if this has been common place. Thanks!
 
I just used it on an IPA with an OG of 1.062 and was down to 1.010 in 3 days. It's very clean like WLP001. I also pitched two vials, but did a 2L starter on a stir plate as well.
 
Just realized I didn't even bother responding to your question.... >.<

Keep checking your gravity until it's the same for 2-3 days straight. If it doesn't drop from this point, then it sounds like you're experiencing the phenomenon known as stuck fermentation. There's around 352 million different reasons why this happens (not really...), but the most common is when the yeast decide to crap out too early, leaving residual sugars & other fermentables behind that can cause bottles to explode.

Move the fermenter to a warmer area if it's too cold (65-70F is the norm), and re-pitch another vial soon. For future reference, though, yeast starters are your best friend. :)
 
Have a 2 liter starter of this yeast going right now. I took a whiff of the tube after pitching and holy crap did it stink. Yeast never smells all that good in the tube/pack but man this was like a punch in the face.
 
Just want to add that my starter finished out in a day. I was pretty shocked my starters usually take at least a few days. Hopefully it does this well on the beer.
 
stone uses english yeast

white labs said it wasn't from a brewery but just uses SD in the name because that's where they are based

Is this strain from one of your San Diego clients?

No. We included the name San Diego in the title to honor the hometown of White Labs.
 
Sad to say, since I like many of White lab's products, but wlp090 has definitely not proven itself a good yeast in my experience. It actually turned me down on everything it promised. It has low attenuation, not high, it produces a **** load of diacetyl, so it's not neutral and it ferments slowly not quickly! It might be a suitable yeast for some low gravity beers but as far as its advertised properties go, it definitely let me down. I did two beers with it, one low and one high gravity. Both ended up in stuck fermentation stinking like a diacetyl bomb. I was able to clean them up a bit by adding many packages of Fermentis US-05 to both beers and they turned out ok, eventually. Wasn't easy though.
Have I just been very unlucky with this? Does it matter? That's up to you but I want you to know that I am an experienced brewer, I follow pitching rates, I use good sanitation and I don't have anything against White labs' products all in all.
Yeast tends to mutate along the way which is why you can't reuse your yeast too many times. - So developing yeast can only be based upon letting it mutate. Did white labs this time let the base strain mutate to far? Is it a very unstable strain so that some tubes are good, while some are bad? I don't know. But I'm staying away from wlp090 from now on.
 
Sad to say, since I like many of White lab's products, but wlp090 has definitely not proven itself a good yeast in my experience. It actually turned me down on everything it promised. It has low attenuation, not high, it produces a **** load of diacetyl, so it's not neutral and it ferments slowly not quickly! It might be a suitable yeast for some low gravity beers but as far as its advertised properties go, it definitely let me down. I did two beers with it, one low and one high gravity. Both ended up in stuck fermentation stinking like a diacetyl bomb. I was able to clean them up a bit by adding many packages of Fermentis US-05 to both beers and they turned out ok, eventually. Wasn't easy though.
Have I just been very unlucky with this? Does it matter? That's up to you but I want you to know that I am an experienced brewer, I follow pitching rates, I use good sanitation and I don't have anything against White labs' products all in all.
Yeast tends to mutate along the way which is why you can't reuse your yeast too many times. - So developing yeast can only be based upon letting it mutate. Did white labs this time let the base strain mutate to far? Is it a very unstable strain so that some tubes are good, while some are bad? I don't know. But I'm staying away from wlp090 from now on.

I've been brewing with WLP090 pretty much since it came out and haven't experienced anything like this. WLP090 is faster, more attenuative, and a better flocculator than chico-strain yeasts, in my experience. It is, however, a more finicky yeast to use.

Notice that the temperature optimal range is much narrower than most white labs products. Also: high flocculators tend to need a lot of oxygen (see: English yeasts like WLP002, 006 and 007), and this strain also likes a lot of oxygen- I've definitely gotten better performance out of it (faster ferments and flocs) since stepping up to pure O2 about a year ago, the only way to properly oxygenate your wort to the optimal 8ppm dO2.

If you have the ability to treat your yeast right, that is to say, pure O2, temperature control, and proper pitching rates, this yeast will outperform other clean american ale strains. I've never had anything like diacetyl come from any of the clean american yeasts, even with hot ferments that got away from me, low O2, and woefully inadequate pitch rates. I'm not sure what you'd have to do to those yeasts to get that result, but I wonder if it's not another flaw or ingredient throwing you off. Certain malts, in particular, can be a little off-putting to me, and I pick them up as a slight slickness or butter-nuttiness you might expect from diacetyl.

Not to shill for White Labs, but their QC is top notch- every batch gets multiple forced-ferment tests, which are subsequently analyzed on some pretty fancy-shmancy equipment before shipping and nothing goes out the door with high levels of any flaw compound. Having worked with yeast in the lab, I'd be willing to bet every strain is grown up from a single cell derived parent culture and is extremely stable generation to generation. Pro brewers typically take their yeast out as many as ten generations and can't typically pick up major differences on sensory panels.
 
Does anyone have any idea how high of an OG this yeast is capable of? I put together a recipe for an IIPA and frankly, the results are terrifying. I planned on making a decent starter, but am definitely going to have to get an O2 tank and now it seems like I may also have to coax the yeast by doing multiple wort additions throughout the fermentation. By calculations (which of course are probably slightly flawed), the recipe I have is going to land the OG in the area of 1.174. The highest I've ever gone is 1.08, so this is completely new territory for me.

So I guess my questions are, can this yeast handle this level of ethanol? With a high-attenuating strain like this, I'd anticipate an ABV of 17-18%. I'm afraid I may have to go to the WLP099, and I really was looking for the profile that 90 offers. If it can handle this brew, am I forced into a position to do multiple fermentation wort additions, or can I skate away with a healthy starter directly into this high of a gravity?
 
Does anyone have any idea how high of an OG this yeast is capable of? I put together a recipe for an IIPA and frankly, the results are terrifying. I planned on making a decent starter, but am definitely going to have to get an O2 tank and now it seems like I may also have to coax the yeast by doing multiple wort additions throughout the fermentation. By calculations (which of course are probably slightly flawed), the recipe I have is going to land the OG in the area of 1.174. The highest I've ever gone is 1.08, so this is completely new territory for me.

So I guess my questions are, can this yeast handle this level of ethanol? With a high-attenuating strain like this, I'd anticipate an ABV of 17-18%. I'm afraid I may have to go to the WLP099, and I really was looking for the profile that 90 offers. If it can handle this brew, am I forced into a position to do multiple fermentation wort additions, or can I skate away with a healthy starter directly into this high of a gravity?

Let's see the recipe. I can't imagine you'll get enough efficiency to get anywhere near that OG, and if you do, I don't think you'll be able to hop it enough to make a decent IIPA. Remember, IBU perception tops out around 100-110 IBU, so if your OG gets much over 1.1, your beer is just getting sweeter and sweeter with no more IBUs to balance it out. I would imagine you'd have to use a ton of simple sugars and/or extracts to get an OG that high and that's not going to make for a tasty IIPA either.
 
that's well above even barleywine OG - you'll have a hard time finding any yeast that can chew through that unless you feed it sugar/yeast throughout the fermentation like people do with Utopia/120min clones and even then you're not likely going to end up with anything resembling a IIPA
 
Well, to be fair, that OG was assuming 80% efficiency where we usually get 85+. I suppose it may end up closer to 75%, but even then, the OG will be huge. I've got enough hop additions to get it to 130 IBU so it will easily age for a year without losing too much bitterness. Obviously, a balanced traditional IPA is NOT what this recipe is about, as the Imperial should say on its own.
In total, there are 33 pounds of grain going into this recipe, no simple sugars as of yet. The WLP099 could handle it easily, but the real question is, can the WLP090, and if so, what will the fermentation wort additions look like?
 
Well, to be fair, that OG was assuming 80% efficiency where we usually get 85+. I suppose it may end up closer to 75%, but even then, the OG will be huge. I've got enough hop additions to get it to 130 IBU so it will easily age for a year without losing too much bitterness. Obviously, a balanced traditional IPA is NOT what this recipe is about, as the Imperial should say on its own.
In total, there are 33 pounds of grain going into this recipe, no simple sugars as of yet. The WLP099 could handle it easily, but the real question is, can the WLP090, and if so, what will the fermentation wort additions look like?

I think you need to lower your expectations. I typically get 80% efficiency on my system, and my most recent barleywine ended up at less than 60% efficiency (OG ended up being right around 1.1). Still, seeing the recipe would help.

Even if you know that your system is capable of higher efficiency with bigger beers, it will still probably end up being too sweet. Like I said, it doesn't matter if the beer is calculated to be 130 IBUs, human beings can only taste about a hundred. An OG 1.15+ beer is going to taste enormously sweet regardless of the IBU for that reason, particularly because your FG is going to end up north of 1.035 likely as not.

Also, why would you age an IIPA? That's basically wasting your late hops, which drop off noticeably in weeks, almost entirely more than a few months out.
 
Hey all,

I pitched a batch of Imperial Red Ale with 2 vials of WLP 090 roughly 2 weeks ago. OG was 1.072 and the fermentation took a good 24hrs to get going. After 10 days of continuous airlock activity the krausen finally dropped out and the gravity was only at 1.020, for an attenuation of 71%. I mashed at 151, and also used a yeast advertised as a bigger wlp001 so I was expecting much more out of it....I had heard stories of huge attenuation after only 3 days of fermentation, yet the result I got was pale in comparison to s-05. Have other people seen tremendous results from this super yeast? Im curious to know if something went wrong with mine or if this has been common place. Thanks!

Figuring about 5.5 gallons of wort 1.072 you need close to 300 billion cells, even at 100% viability you pitched around 2/3 of the suggested cell count. Under pitching coupled with sub-optimal oxygenation could explain the lack of attenuation. I've only used this yeast once but was satisfied with the results.
 
I brewed a smoked cranberry belgian dubbel with it this fall with two tubes Super San Diego and two packets S04 mixed, OG 1.082, FG: 1.017. 100% tap water, 1 teaspoon generic LHBS yeast nutes and no O2. I made it before getting an O2 kit this Christmas. Had i'd used the O2, i'm sure it would've eclipsed 1.010. The alcohol level is already off the chart for a dubbel at 8.6% but it's well masked.

People love it. It took in a 42 and a 46 at the Best Florida Beer Championships last month, made it to the second round but failed to medal. I entered it in as a specialty beer/winter warmer and should've probably entered it as a true Belgian Dubbel. Might've medaled then.
 
I brewed a smoked cranberry belgian dubbel with it this fall with two tubes Super San Diego and two packets S04 mixed, OG 1.082, FG: 1.017. 100% tap water, 1 teaspoon generic LHBS yeast nutes and no O2. I made it before getting an O2 kit this Christmas. Had i'd used the O2, i'm sure it would've eclipsed 1.010. The alcohol level is already off the chart for a dubbel at 8.6% but it's well masked.

People love it. It took in a 42 and a 46 at the Best Florida Beer Championships last month, made it to the second round but failed to medal. I entered it in as a specialty beer/winter warmer and should've probably entered it as a true Belgian Dubbel. Might've medaled then.

There's nothing belgian about that beer if you used S-04 and WLP090.
 
First time poster, so I will probably get flamed but I have questions.

I brewed what I was hoping to be a 5 gallon IIPA (13.25lbs Great Western 2nd Row, 0.6 lbs 60l Crystal, 0.6 lbs Carapils and 12 oz of falconer's Flight hops)

Our pot is only 15 liters so we had to break it off and put about 10lbs of grain in to one pot and we decided to try something a little different with the other 3 lbs in a 1 gallon pot just to mess around. We used the SDSY in the 15 liters, which is where is story this going to go.

so we mashed the 10lbs of grain for 90 mins with a 1 liter to 1 lbs ratio for the water keeping it at between 155-160, batch sparged, started the boil, we devided up out hops so I ended up front loading 7oz of hops at the beginning of the boil and threw in the last 2oz in the last 15 mins of the boil. We cooled the word and did a syphon transfer from the boil to the fermenter letting the wort aerate by letting it splash in to fermenter from a small distance, we took the OG at about 78 degrees and it read 1.052 (I feel thats kind of low but not to sure, this is our first batch bigger then 1 gallon). I pitched 2 viles of the SDSY after sloshing the wort aroundfor a few mins, any guess where we may land with the final? It had a little lag on its start but it is building head in the fermenter but not enough to make the blow off make a crazy amount of bubbles. Im hoping that we end up with something the 6%+ range in the end. Is that a high hope?
 
I haven't even used this yeast, but I am confident that ONE vial would have been more than enough...

If you have decent temp control your beer should finish pretty low.
 
@ Rotten

I use this yeast quite a bit and you should be fine. Dont worry so much about the bubbling or the lock movement, it does not always "go crazy" :). The yeast needs to build up in a larger batch of beer. Give it a few days and let them do what they are supposed to. few weeks and youll have awesome beer. Let us know how it turns out.
 
After about one week the fermentation activity has seemed to subside so we racked it over to a secondary and did a gravity reading. Our 4 gallon batch dropped to about 1.014 getting us around 5.34 ABV. Im pretty happy we made alcohol, I know i can get that number higher though. Our one gallon batch that we messed around with by adding some grapefruit in to the boil started at 1.096 and ended at 1.034 using a different yeast. we did pretty much everything the same on both batches except for the grapefruit and yeast. The flavors on both are soild IPA flavors, we blended the 1 gallon in to the 4 gallon in the secondary to see what that does for us if anything.
 
Unimpressed with this yeast. It performed very well in the fermentation department, but the end results were lots of highs alcohols... even some in the original 6% ipa. Also thought the beer lacked body. It did clear much faster than Cali ale yeast but I can live with a little haze in an otherwise perfect yeast.
 
I could give it another shake... maybe it was a bad vial or it likes really cool temps, but ill probably just stick with California ale and not risk another batch of brew. What temps is everyone fermenting? I held it between 65 and 67...
 
WLP090 is WLP001 mixed with something they don't tell us so brew it the same temp and it does finish faster especially with a starter and yeast nutrient. Ive grown my own and it is very finicky and dies easily so maybe a old batch just make sure you do a starter the night before with the same gravity your beer is
 
Ho old were the vials of yeast, you very well may have under pitched. 1.080 is a high gravity beer that you probably should have made a starter with.
 
I like it. Clean yeast. I mashed at 158 and it did 77% attn to make my beer something like 8.5%. Actually the 2 times I've used it have been 2 of my best. All I had fr temp control at the time was a swamp bath, so I don't imagine it is too sensitive to temp variations.... Not that I think about it... I should go get some more of this
 
I had never used this yeast before until 10 days ago. I have a split batch (CYBI Dead Guy) in fermenters right now one carboy is 090 and the other is 001. The 090 actually took off about 12-18 hours behind the 001, but did seem to ferment faster. They are both is the same ferm cooler at ~66°F. Looking to bottle in another 10-12 days and looking forward to the taste test!
 
I ferment this yeast at 66-67F and its very clean and fast fermenting. Even my starters finish faster than any other yest ive used. i heard this yeast can have issues if not kept between 65-68 as recommended but i never had any issues since i have a ferment chamber.
 
Notice that the temperature optimal range is much narrower than most white labs products. Also: high flocculators tend to need a lot of oxygen (see: English yeasts like WLP002, 006 and 007), and this strain also likes a lot of oxygen- I've definitely gotten better performance out of it (faster ferments and flocs) since stepping up to pure O2 about a year ago, the only way to properly oxygenate your wort to the optimal 8ppm dO2.

Certain malts, in particular, can be a little off-putting to me, and I pick them up as a slight slickness or butter-nuttiness you might expect from diacetyl.

Wow, so much amazing stuff in this post; you get a "Like!" (and I don't give that many).

Do you have any references or links that support the idea that english strains often require higher levels of oxygen? -I'm not saying that I doubt you, only that data would be appreciated. Honestly it kind of makes sense when you consider the English tradition of open fermentation -English strains could have developed a preference from being fermented in higher oxygen environments.

For what it's worth though the 8ppm isn't a universal recommendation; high gravity worts should have higher concentrations, as should lagers (12ppm starting point); -it's interesting that it's harder to get oxygen to dissolve in high gravity worts AND they actually require more oxygen, too. Reference: Institute of Brewing and Distilling's General Certificate in Brewing- Fermentation Manual (should be available as a PDF free online).

On the diacetyl point: it's awesome that you noticed this. Golden Promise malt ("scottish Marris Otter") is actually FAMOUS for tricking people (with less structured tasting experience) into thinking that they're tasting diacetyl. Brewers are actually slowly abandoning it because Americans taste UK beers made with the malt and they vote down the beer as having a "fault" on beer rating websites despite the breweries use of expensive HPLC testing to validate that no diacetyl and diacetyl percursors (VDKs) are present.

Further on the diacetyl point, diacetyl is SUPPOSED to be in some English beers and personally I think diacetyl really adds to those beers. This modern American jihad against diacetyl, I find really off-putting. Wine makers specifically perform malolactic fermentation on most red wines and some white wines (think California Chardonnay) BECAUSE THEY WANT / LIKE DIACETYL and it adds to the mouthfeel and flavor. -Yes, they also perform malolactic fermentation because it turns harsher malic acid into lactic acid and mellows the acidity of the wine, but ALSO because of the positive flavor enhancement brought by diacetyl.

Personally I think diacetyl is most often delicious; although I have had some rushed lagers that were disgustingly overladen with diacetyl, they're the exception to the rule.


I'm actually even more interested in using WLP 090 again to try and coax that Diacetyl out of it, now.

The Fuller's strain is famous for being a diacetyl producer; Fuller's ESB is possibly the most complex beer for it's strength, bar none and part of that deliciously complex flavor is diacetyl. P.S. ESB's not a style; I'm sorry BJCP but a single beer does not a style make, even if you really like that single beer!

Also interestingly: people generally speak of yeast as "diacetyl producers" but in reality all yeast produce diacetyl and roughly the same quantity; where the strains differ is in their ability to TAKE BACK UP diacetyl and convert it to acetoin. -We taste a beer and say "it's diacetyly; this yeast must produce a lot of diacetyl" when in reality it's just bad at soaking it back up.


Adam
 
I can't imagine you'll get enough efficiency to get anywhere near that OG, and if you do, I don't think you'll be able to hop it enough to make a decent IIPA. Remember, IBU perception tops out around 100-110 IBU, so if your OG gets much over 1.1, your beer is just getting sweeter and sweeter with no more IBUs to balance it out. I would imagine you'd have to use a ton of simple sugars and/or extracts to get an OG that high and that's not going to make for a tasty IIPA either.

Great, great advice here, too. I was going to say the same. If you want an even remotely "dry" finish, the bigger you go the more simple sugar you want; you want more base malt -tone down the speciality % as the OG grows.

Simple sugars help further; save them for the end because when yeast get fed too much simple sugars early on they stop fermenting maltose and then your beer ends up EVEN SWEETER.


I also agree about using hop extracts to try and drive up bitterness.
Swapping some of your malt for simple sugars also helps out with the IBUs in crazy strong beers like this; -one of the primary things driving down actual mg of isoalpha acids in solution is the flocculation of proteins ala hot and cold break which pull out isoalpha acids with them. By swapping to simple sugars you have less protein load and more of those ibus stay in solution. -Hmm... I wonder if you could add pre-isomerized alpha extract in the fermenter to really make sure you keep those alpha acids in solution.


Adam
 
I've got enough hop additions to get it to 130 IBU so it will easily age for a year without losing too much bitterness. Obviously, a balanced traditional IPA is NOT what this recipe is about, as the Imperial should say on its own.

No, you're going to lose a lot of bitterness no matter what you start with when you age it for a year. -Find a hop that has low alpha acid to beta acid ratio to keep the bitterness up during extended aging; the alphas fade rapidly during aging but betas stay around and oxidize and are actually more bitter so this can help.

Oxidation is one of the primary things that will drive down the bitterness so minimize it at all costs; actually consider adding a more neutral / citrusy Brett strain at bottling; it will help keep away oxidation better than almost anything and will help keep the hoppy flavor around longer during aging; it will also help dry out that beer further as it ages.

Adam
 
I just recently used this yeast for the first time. Harvested a couple samples from my starter and then stepped the starter up one time to use on a 1.074 autunm ale. Pitched seven days ago. Airlock activity has been bill for the last 3 days. Hydrometer sample was at 1.014. Almost 83% attenuation!! I can vouch for the same experience with my starter. 2 days and it was dropped to final gravity and the starter wort was the clearest I have ever seen! Maybe 002 was close. This yeast seems to be a beast and the sample was very well balanced in nature. Just what I was hoping for.

I will also say that temps were not super controlled here either. It is the time of year that temps swing from 99 to 75 in one day. This beer was fermented in a swamp cooler set up with a fan and blow off tube.

Very impressed thus far and am considering using it for a maibock type beer....ala Dead guy
 
Ho old were the vials of yeast, you very well may have under pitched. 1.080 is a high gravity beer that you probably should have made a starter with.

Well within the use by date. I did do a starter for the first ipa then pitched half the cake into the bigger beer. I was out of o2 for the bigger beer but used it on the first. Still wouldnt have expected the results I got...
 
I just bottled my CYBI Dead Guy double batch tonight. I mentioned this earlier in this thread (#32) that the 090 took off slower than the 001 did. What I didn't expect was that 090 also attenuated a little less than 001.

It was a split batch, so everything was identical except the yeast. SG 1.065 for both fermenters, 090 finished at 1.015 and 001 finished at 1.013. Both were pitched at 66°-67° and kept in the same ferm cooler at ~66° for two weeks and then allowed to raise to ambient temp, about 68°-69° for another 11 days. Both yeast were pitched straight from the vial, no starter.

Both yeasts attenuated to within their expected ranges, but 090 can supposedly attenuate a bit more than 001. I guess I wasn't so lucky.

It's probably not a fair comparison yet, but I liked the hydro sample better from the 090 than 001. Of course 090 is also supposedly closer to the pacman used in Dead Guy. We'll see how they do after bottle conditioning.
 
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