Easy Stove-Top Pasteurizing - With Pics

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Thanks guys, how long would I have to keep a champagne bottle in the 190 degree water for it to be pasteurized and did we get a definitive answer to the dishwasher pasteurization ?


I put a thermometer in my dishwasher with heated drying cycle and it never went hotter than 133. The probe was on the upper rack, it may have been slightly warmer on the bottom, where the actual heating element is, but I doubt it.

I did this experiment about 1 week ago while 'sanitizing' some bottles for bottling day.

So my dishwasher, I'd say 'borderline' effectiveness at 133. You really need 140 for a period of about 20 minutes if I'm not mistaken, or 130 for a period of about an hour. And that's inside the bottle, not outside temp. So, I'd say FAIL on the dishwasher.

My model is a "Fridgidaire UltraQuiet I"
 
I know SOMEBODY out there has some thermo on them... (forgive any spelling errors):



Once ago, when I was young
And science was my friend,
I could tell you pretty well
Just where this trip would end.

How temperature's up
and volume's down,
but energy stays the same,
and with your timer, temp and pot -- how YOU can win this game.

But time has come and time has gone,
and math is still as thick...
Reality is the same, they say,
but I can no longer to the trick,

How big's the pot, how deep the water,
The thermal mass -- the hitch.
But putting all together now,
well, that's still a ...itch.

But someone out there,
Still fresh from school,
With thermo's dynamic grasp,
Could figure it all out -- quite plain
And help us save our asp.


figure this and calculate that,
and add, subtract, divide
by volume and metric,
by temperature all hectic,
To get us on this ride.

6 digit precission?
Not what we need...
A few degrees will do,
If those degrees are high enough
to stop yeast through and through.

Just how hot do yeast need to be
'fore they give up the ghost?
Start at the end and work backwards
will help us make the most.

I've painted myself into a corner now,
for I'm running out of time
But even worse for me, you see,
I'm running out of rhymes.

I'll think on this, I'll meditate
Of ways to skin a cat.
And when it comes to killing yeast,
I'll just opine on that.

The delta of the temperature
the Sigma of the heat.
The x cubed pi and rho-rho-rho
And convert it all to feet!

So here's the question posed to you,
Of temperature and exploding brew,
Of thermal constants,
pints and pounds,
Mass and time and all:
How hot does it
really have to git,
to git it off the ball?
How many grams of water,
How many Kelvins, dear,
How many precious seconds,
To sterilize the beer?

I know you know the answer,
I trust in you full well,
but show your work
in case the jerk
who grades it just can't tell.
 
Some people, when they have nothing positive to offer, resort to ad hominem attacks. Others resort to free verse. ;-)

There was a day when I would calculate that just for fun. It's a pretty standard thermodynamics problem, but it's been a long, long time. My degree was in EE, and it's been a good 20 since I did THAT.

Any mechanicals out there?

Congrats on the 25, Pappers! We're coming up on 11, and it seems like just a year.
 
How about pasteurizing in the oven? Not sure if the oven would go low enough. Think you could stack/stand the bottles in there and set it to preheat to 190. and once it hits 190, wait 10 minutes and you should be good? Or am I crazy?
 
How about pasteurizing in the oven? Not sure if the oven would go low enough. Think you could stack/stand the bottles in there and set it to preheat to 190. and once it hits 190, wait 10 minutes and you should be good? Or am I crazy?

I was thinking of the same thing.
 
Originally Posted by geeze View Post
How about pasteurizing in the oven? Not sure if the oven would go low enough. Think you could stack/stand the bottles in there and set it to preheat to 190. and once it hits 190, wait 10 minutes and you should be good? Or am I crazy?

Good question !!!!!
 
How about pasteurizing in the oven? Not sure if the oven would go low enough. Think you could stack/stand the bottles in there and set it to preheat to 190. and once it hits 190, wait 10 minutes and you should be good? Or am I crazy?

The oven is going to be a more direct heat than a waterbath, so you'd be at a higher risk for bottle explosions.

a 10% abv solution boils at around 199 F, that's a slim margin in an oven, since the metal parts can be much hotter than the air temp.

If you were going to do it you'd want to use a much lower temp, probably around 170 and heat the oven before putting the bottle in so there's no direct heat on them.

You'd also want to leave them in longer since the air isn't as good a conductor as water.
 
Will this only work with ale yeast? I have Lalvin K1-V116 to use in my cider. Anybody have any luck bad or good with wine yeasts?
 
The pasteurization method should work with any yeast, but I'd recommend against the 1116. I tried this on a couple batches and it was real bland and buttery. YMMV
 
The pasteurization method should work with any yeast, but I'd recommend against the 1116. I tried this on a couple batches and it was real bland and buttery. YMMV

:off: CvilleKevin, I am interested in options. That is the one suggested by my LHBS. What is a good yeast to use?
 
I was thinking of going with WLP005 originally. Looking at many of the recipies on here for Cider, many people use it...Maybe I will pick up a vial.
 
Pappers - First, Thank you for putting together the process on pasteurizing. I am very excited to try it out. How long does your cider usually sit in the primary before the SG gets to 1.014 - 1.010? Also, after the recommendations, I started looking at different yeast. I started looking at WLP002, do you think with 63 - 70% will be enough attenuation? If starting out with a SG of 1.050, FG will be 1.018 - 1.015. That puts ABV between 4.26 - 4.66% Sorry to be off topic. Again Thanks for all the help.
 
WLP002 is good, but so similar to Notty that its not worth the 5x price. All of the attenuation numbers are for beer wort. Just about any yeast will chew through all the cider sugars, given enough time. But the ale and wheat yeasts are easier to stop with some residual sugar
 
CvilleKevin - Thank you again for your responses. I have decided to do two batches. One with Notty and one with WLP005. Cause really can you have too much Cider??
Thanks again to both of you and Pappers
:mug:
 
Pappers - First, Thank you for putting together the process on pasteurizing. I am very excited to try it out. How long does your cider usually sit in the primary before the SG gets to 1.014 - 1.010? Also, after the recommendations, I started looking at different yeast. I started looking at WLP002, do you think with 63 - 70% will be enough attenuation? If starting out with a SG of 1.050, FG will be 1.018 - 1.015. That puts ABV between 4.26 - 4.66% Sorry to be off topic. Again Thanks for all the help.

My ciders, which are simple and not very complex, take between 7 and 14 days to ferment to semi-dry. Four days ago, I bottled a batch at 1.008 and its a little too dry, perhaps. But its good to experiment.

As mentioned above, the attenuation rating of the ale yeasts doesn't mean anything for us when we make ciders - all of them will ferment the cider to dry.
 
JFTR,
I have been searching for the simplest automated / online tools that would let me calculate the "time-to-sterile" for hot water immersion. I can probably fake steady-state calculations, but that's not what we're looking for.

I did turn up useful information in my searches...
From my close, personal friend (Wikipedia):
"... There are two main types of pasteurization used today: High Temperature/Short Time (HTST) and "Extended Shelf Life (ESL)" treatment. ...
... is forced between metal plates or through pipes heated on the outside by hot water, and is heated to 71.7 °C (161 °F) for 15–20 seconds. ...

The HTST pasteurization standard was designed to achieve a 5-log reduction, killing 99.999% of the number of viable micro-organisms in [milk]. This is considered adequate for destroying almost all yeasts, mold, and common spoilage bacteria ...
"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization)

And, from my friend that I would like to be closer, and more personal (HBT):
"... looked through "Brewing, Science, and Practice" where I remembered reading about some pasteurization info.

Here's some quick info:
at 53C minimum time to kill population 56 min
at 60C minimum time to kill population 5.6 min
at 67c minimum time to kill population .56 min
..."
(https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/re...pasteurization-experiment-121101/#post1346616)

And, because I need to dink around more on my computer than sleep, I found a TON of great calculations that I can't do any more, and settled for a simple conversion (thank you, Excel...):

53C = 128F
60C = 140F
67C = 152F

[C is degrees Centigrade, not Calories.
F is degrees Farenheit, not Frankenstein.]

So, a water bath LONG enough at a CONSTANT temperature, will do it. Steady-state is easy: Add a pound of ice and a pound of boiling water, mix well, and you have 2 pounds at 50C. We just can't mix the hot water INSIDE the bottles, so we have to wait. Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it don... sorry.

I'm still looking for the temperature -vs- time calcs (easy enough for me to do w/out relearning Biot's numbers, Fourier transforms, or how to use the charts from somebody who's name starts with an H... Whew. I need a cider again.

Failing that, you could do one of two things:
1) get the bottles swirling and turning, making the temperature more homogenous inside, approximating a solid with good heat conductivity, or
2) Put a thermometer into an open bottle and hope for the best.

I think I'm going to try the last one. Sweet(er) cider, here I come.
 
Failing that, you could do one of two things:
1) get the bottles swirling and turning, making the temperature more homogenous inside, approximating a solid with good heat conductivity

You have a thorough and science-focused approached, Joe. From experience, I know that 12 ounce beer bottles filled with cider are effectively pasteurized in 190 degree water if you let them sit in the hot water for ten minutes.

Also, I would be cautious abut the suggestion in the quote above. We're dealing with heating pressurized bottles and my approach is to touch and move them as little as possible. I am careful not to bump them, for example. After they cool, its fine, but common sense seems to me to advise caution in handling them when they are warm.

Good luck with your experiments and cider!
 
Pasteurized another batch tonight. It had been one of those days, too much work, etc. I was reminded about how easy this really is - while I was pasteurizing the batch, I put away groceries, did dishes and made dinner. Got the cider and my chores finished!

This batch was a little drier - about 1.007. Very tasty, but noticeably drier.
 
Pappers,

Thanks for this. I've been brewing since the first of this yr and although I've done Apfelwein and Graff, this is my first true cider. I wanted a sweet, sparkling cider...so finding your post on pasteurization couldn't of come at a better time.

Cheers
 
May be a dumb question but if I am going to backsweeten my cider with 1 or 2 cans of some frozen 100% apple juice concetrate do I need to add priming sugar aswell?
 
May be a dumb question but if I am going to backsweeten my cider with 1 or 2 cans of some frozen 100% apple juice concetrate do I need to add priming sugar aswell?

Hi Lunar. No, you don't need to, the yeast will eat up the apple sugars, you would need to keep a close eye on carbonation, though - because the yeast will keep on eating the sugars until BOOM. You want to stop them well short of that.
 
thats what i thought....i just had a brain fart. Im going to check my bottles starting on the 5th day after bottling, then every 3 or 4 days afterward till they are perfect.
 
thats what i thought....i just had a brain fart. Im going to check my bottles starting on the 5th day after bottling, then every 3 or 4 days afterward till they are perfect.

Maybe every other day? Carbonation can go fast, sometimes. But you're not wasting them - pour it over ice and enjoy. :mug:
 
so check every other day after bottling?

Sorry to be so unclear. If the hydrometer reading when you bottle is at or around 1.010 - 1.014, then I would wait for four or five days after bottling and then check every other day after that. If your cider is significantly sweeter, I'd check sooner and more often.
 
Sorry to be so unclear. If the hydrometer reading when you bottle is at or around 1.010 - 1.014, then I would wait for four or five days after bottling and then check every other day after that. If your cider is significantly sweeter, I'd check sooner and more often.

Reading was 1.020 after I backsweetened.
 
I backsweetened mine to 1.014 and in less than 48 hours I had a bottle bomb. At the 48 hour time frame, I had three bottle bombs. They were so actively fermenting, I had one whole pot (6 bottles) completely explode. I ended up having to open all the bottles and dumping them back into a fermenter. Now that was an experience. Not sure what I did, or what went wrong.
 
I backsweetened mine to 1.014 and in less than 48 hours I had a bottle bomb. At the 48 hour time frame, I had three bottle bombs. They were so actively fermenting, I had one whole pot (6 bottles) completely explode. I ended up having to open all the bottles and dumping them back into a fermenter. Now that was an experience. Not sure what I did, or what went wrong.

Jeez now you have me scared,and im at work and have to work at least 3 hours of overtime today!

I've had my cider at 1.02 bottled for 48hrs now and no bottle bombs yet *knocks on wood*
 
I'm probably repeating myself or someone else in this thread (no time to look now), but I'm going to suggest that you all seriously consider using a plastic (PET) soda bottle to bottle at least one sample of anything with the potential for bottle bombs.

Leave normal head space, squeeze out the air and screw the cap down as you have it squeezed. You can feel the pressure build over the following days/weeks. You'll know if it is continuing to ferment based on that

-kenc
 
I backsweetened mine to 1.014 and in less than 48 hours I had a bottle bomb. At the 48 hour time frame, I had three bottle bombs. They were so actively fermenting, I had one whole pot (6 bottles) completely explode. I ended up having to open all the bottles and dumping them back into a fermenter. Now that was an experience. Not sure what I did, or what went wrong.

As we know, there are many variables in the way yeasties work - temperature, how active the fermentation is, amount of yeast, variety of yeast. I've never come close to a bottle bomb in two days after bottling.

In case of any uncertainty, its always better to check for carbonation too early than too late.
 
I made a 3 gallon batch of cider, using three gallons from a local orchard and some nottingham ale yeast. The SG was 1.042 and SG at bottling was 1.010 At bottling I added a half gallon more of cider to backsweeten and a quarter cup of brown sugar. I used regular bottle caps and a wing style capper. I popped one open tonight, its been in the bottle for four days, and it was fizzy enough, so I started to Pasteurize them. Unfortunately, I started to hear hissing and saw lots of bubbles coming to the surface in about half my bottles. I figure this means the heat blew the seals, but when tipped upside down they don't leak. I'm kind of afraid to do more of them this way. Has this happened to anyone else? I can easily put them all in a minifridge and cold crash if you think that would be safer?
 
I am looking to make my first batch of cider but not sure of a good recipe. My project for this weekend is to make a basic fermentation cabinet. I might pick up ingredients for a cider.

Pappers - What recipe do you use for your cider?
 
I made a 3 gallon batch of cider, using three gallons from a local orchard and some nottingham ale yeast. The SG was 1.042 and SG at bottling was 1.010 At bottling I added a half gallon more of cider to backsweeten and a quarter cup of brown sugar. I used regular bottle caps and a wing style capper. I popped one open tonight, its been in the bottle for four days, and it was fizzy enough, so I started to Pasteurize them. Unfortunately, I started to hear hissing and saw lots of bubbles coming to the surface in about half my bottles. I figure this means the heat blew the seals, but when tipped upside down they don't leak. I'm kind of afraid to do more of them this way. Has this happened to anyone else? I can easily put them all in a minifridge and cold crash if you think that would be safer?

I've only had one cap blow off. But it is definitely possible that if the carbonation level in the bottles is too high, when you pasteurize you could have too much pressure in the bottles, leading to blowing caps or worse.

So, if a cider-maker opens a bottle and there's carbonation all over the place - don't pasteurize, its too late. Err on the side of caution.
 
I am looking to make my first batch of cider but not sure of a good recipe. My project for this weekend is to make a basic fermentation cabinet. I might pick up ingredients for a cider.

Pappers - What recipe do you use for your cider?

This is from an earlier thread started by MeadWitch at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/cider-house-rules-187921/ It is for a simple, straightforward, draft-style cider that is carbonated and bottle conditioned.

Here's a recipe version:

1. add 5 gallons of store-bought apple juice to a sanitzed carboy

2. add 3 teaspoons pectic enzyme to the cider

3. add one packet of dry ale yeast such as Nottingham

4. put on a stopper and airlock, or loosely cover with sanitized aluminum foil

5. let ferment for approximately 1 week or until the cider is at the balance of sweetness /dryness you desire; if you use a hydrometer, a reading of 1.008 - 1.010 will be semi-dry

6. prepare a priming solution of 2/3 cups white sugar boiled in 2 cups of water; cool to room temperature

7. add priming solution and cider to bottling bucket

8. bottle and cap, using bottles made for carbonated beverages such as beer or champagne bottles

9. allow bottles to conditioned and carbonate in an area at least 70 F

10. occasionally test bottles for carbonation process by opening one and tasting

11. when desired carbonation level is reached (but before bottles begin exploding), pasteurize the cider to kill the yeast and stop fermentation; prepare a hot water bath of 190 F water, carefully set the bottles in the bath for ten minutes and remove; repeat until all the bottles are pasteurized

And this is some text from the same thread, more explanatory:

I'll try to expand here - if I'm not answering your questions or am unclear, just let me know.

With the method I use, you can choose to bottle it as sweet or as dry as you want. For my tastes, 1.010 specific gravity is about right, but you can also be guided by your taste buds. I watch the fermentation pretty carefully for a few days, when it appears to be slowing down, i take a hydrometer reading and taste the sample. Depending on the outcome, I may do it again the next day or in a couple of days. It takes about a week for the cider to ferment to the level of dryness/sweetness I like, which is what I would call semi-dry.

Alternatively, you can let it ferment out completely dry, where the yeast eat all the sugars, and then back sweeten it with more juice. Folks who use that method then have to add another chemical to stop the fermentation (because the yeast will start up again, eating the sugar in the newly-added juice). Then they can keg it to get sparkling cider or bottle it as-is for still cider.

I really like sparkling cider, though, and because i generally brew with an eye to using organic ingredients, I like to use the pasteurization method rather than the chemically-induced method, if that makes any sense.

So, at this point you've got a carboy full of cider that has fermented to the point where it is as sweet/dry as you want it - but if you let it go, it would keep on fermenting. The next step is bottling.

I'm unfamiliar with how you bottle wine or mead, so i don't know what equipment you have. I use a bottling bucket with a spigot on it, attach a tube to the spigot with a bottling wand on the end of the tube. I don't think it really matters how you get the cider into the bottles though.

The bottles you use, though, are very important. You cannot use ordinary wine bottles for sparkling cider - they are made for still beverages, not carbonated and are not strong enough. You must use beer bottles or sparkling wine bottles. If you use beer bottles, you would need to get a handheld bottle capper (not very expensive) and caps (very cheap). But sparkling wine bottles with corks and wire are fine too.

With the method I use, we are carbonating in the bottle, so we need yeast and sugar to be present. There is still residual sugar left in the cider, but because I don't want the cider to get any drier than it already is, I add priming sugar - regular cane sugar from the grocery store is fine. The yeast will eat that up and leave the sugar from the juice, and the carbonated cider will have the same balance of dry/sweetness as when i tasted it prior to bottling.

Before bottling, for a 5 gallon batch, I boil 2/3 cup of white sugar in two cups of water. The boiling is to get it fully dissolved and sanitized. I let it cool to room temperature (you can put your pot in an ice bath to speed the process). Then I pour the priming solution into my bottling bucket and rack (via a siphoning tube) the cider into the bottling bucket, onto the priming sugar. I have no idea if i need to be as careful as I am about not oxidizing the cider - not splashing it around. With beer, you need to be careful about that at this point, but i'm not sure about cider.

In any case, i'm careful not splash it - i take the siphon tube and put it down into the priming sugar solution, so that the cider is flowing out and through the solution, not splashing. This also assures that the priming solution is thoroughly mixed into the cider.

Then I bottle and cap. I put the capped bottles in a relatively warm space, low to mid 70s if possible, to help the yeast get active.

After one week, I put a bottle in the fridge for a few hours and then open it, to check on the carbonation level. Assuming its under carbonated, I wait a few days and try another, until the carbonation seems right. If you use sparkling wine bottles, this method could be pretty wasteful - the bottles are so much bigger than beer bottles.

The risk here, as you noted in your OP, is exploding bottles. So when the carbonation is right, I then pasteurize the bottles in a hot water bath to kill the yeast. I use a large stock pot, with 190 F water - i put about six bottles in at a time and let them sit for ten minutes. I leave a floating thermometer in the water, so i can monitor the temperature and add heat if necessary, before putting in the next set of bottles. I use kitchen tongs to carefully put the bottles into the water bath and take them out.

Hope this is helpful, MW. You might look around the cider forum for the other method I mentioned - ferment dry, back sweeten and stop fermentation with chemicals (sulfites, maybe?) But for me, this pastuerization method fits my needs.
 
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