Extract vs. all grain

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jlestos

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Sorry if this is a repost (it certainly must be...) but being new to the brewing life, I have a few questions about the differences as far as taste is concerned between extract brewing and all grain. Obviously it's an entirely different brewing session, I do understand that. But, how different is the taste between an extract and an all grain beer? I ask because I have boatloads of ideas about beers that extract kits don't exist for, so I look at them as a base for what I should be trying to do; and then adding what I want.
Even though making my own all grain kit isn't all that expensive as opposed to buying one (from what I gather in How to Brew), I just simply can't afford it right now if I want to try to brew 3 or more batches a month. Buying it piecemeal works to an extent, but then I get overly excited. So, my big question other than the one previously posted is, is it worth cutting back and losing the brewing experience to buy the all grain equipment? and is it worth trying my own recipes before I have complete control of my gear (grinding my own grains, etc.)?
 
Have you taken into account how much cheaper it is to by grain than extract? If you're looking to brew 3 times a month you should definitely invest in bulk base grain, and at that point you'll end up paying less than half as much for your grain as you would for extract. At that rate it should only take 2 or 3 months to pay off the extra AG equipment.
 
I think people tend to equate AG to a better tasting brew, but from what I've read, that isn't really true. The fact is that most people make many additional process changes when going to AG that account for a huge part of the flavor difference (e.g., full boils, better wort cooling, controlling fermentation temperatures, etc.).

AG does afford you the option of controlling more variables, and as slowbie pointed out, tends to be cheaper (discounting equipment costs).
 
I've read stories on here where AG'rs make an extract brew when they don't have time for AG,but want to keep up their pipeline. Some have said they see little difference in extract vs the average AG when done well. So it's a matter of choice. How much time do you wanna spend?
 
Brewing AG doesn't necessarily mean you'll brew better beer. If you move from extract to AG and still aren't pitching enough yeast, keeping proper fermentation temperatures, or using good sanitation practices, your beer will still suck.

There's also more variables with AG, so if you don't have a process down already, you're opening up a whole slew of potential problems.

That said, if you're able to do it "correctly," brewing AG will give you an entirely new dimension of variables to control in the brewing process, and some pretty good beer as well.
 
Have you considered doing partial/mini-mashes? I moved from extract brewing to partial mash, and I really only needed to add 1 piece of equipment--a bag big enough to put up to 5-6 pounds of grain in when I mash. It allows you a little more flexibility of using what you want for a recipe, but doesn't require all the equipment. To make up for the fewer amount of grains, I just use some DME after mashing the grains to bring the sugar content up. I do plan to move to AG one day, but I don't have the money to invest in the bigger pot, outdoor burner, and other equipment needed.

Personally, I noticed a difference moving towards partial mashes. My beers seem to have an almost fresher taste to them. Maybe it is just because I am doing full boils for a much longer time than I would with just extract or that I am taking more steps to brew as extract brewing took maybe 2 hours and now its easily a 4 hour endeavor (not a bad thing, just noting that it takes longer). Right now I enjoy doing the middle of the road brewing where I am going outside the box of extract somewhat, having a little more control over the flavor of the beer, but not quite making move/commitment to AG brewing. Plus, its just me and occasionally my dad drinking my beer, so I am only brewing once every one to two months.
 
I think people tend to equate AG to a better tasting brew, but from what I've read, that isn't really true. The fact is that most people make many additional process changes when going to AG that account for a huge part of the flavor difference (e.g., full boils, better wort cooling, controlling fermentation temperatures, etc.).

AG does afford you the option of controlling more variables, and as slowbie pointed out, tends to be cheaper (discounting equipment costs).

+1

With the rest of your process being identical, I think you'd notice little difference between the two (or three if you include partial mashing) methods.

That said, mashing gives you more control and allows you to use grains that you can't use in an extract batch. As others have also mentioned all grain is cheaper, especially when you buy your grain in bulk.
 
Excellent beer can be made with either method. Steeping, partial mash and mini-mash can add a lot of depth to extract brews. The biggest factor in quality is controlling your process; yeast handling, fermentation temp, sanitation ,etc. If your brewing practices are sound it's impossible to tell the difference. After that it's a matter of economics, bulk grain is way cheaper than DME or LME. That's what made me jump to AG. I don't mind the extra time involved mashing grains.
 
So basically, and you've all said it much nicer, but I'm an idiot to think to do lots of extract brewing because long term it'll be way cheaper to get an AG system. I had thought a bit about the price of the equipment but not the grains and that was distracting me I guess. Figure hopefully 150 bucks to buy the gear and make my own tun and then it should be smooth sailing.

I had thought about moving to partial mash, but I think in the end I might end up skipping it unless the process freaks me out. A lot of math type stuff involved...thanks for the info folks. It's much appreciated.

J
 
So basically, and you've all said it much nicer, but I'm an idiot to think to do lots of extract brewing because long term it'll be way cheaper to get an AG system. I had thought a bit about the price of the equipment but not the grains and that was distracting me I guess. Figure hopefully 150 bucks to buy the gear and make my own tun and then it should be smooth sailing.

I had thought about moving to partial mash, but I think in the end I might end up skipping it unless the process freaks me out. A lot of math type stuff involved...thanks for the info folks. It's much appreciated.

J

Were not saying give up extract, I cooked extract batches for 10 + years. I could almost do it without thinking. There just comes a time when you want to expand on your hobby. Extract teaches alot about the basics of brewing, I think it's an essential progression. The partial mash is another part of the progression, the key is to take your time learn as you go read alot ask alot of questions and plan out your brew day by going over it in your head. Be prepared, make a list write everything down. By the time brew day roles around you'll be relaxed and ready to roll.
 
jlestos said:
So basically, and you've all said it much nicer, but I'm an idiot to think to do lots of extract brewing because long term it'll be way cheaper to get an AG system. I had thought a bit about the price of the equipment but not the grains and that was distracting me I guess. Figure hopefully 150 bucks to buy the gear and make my own tun and then it should be smooth sailing.

I had thought about moving to partial mash, but I think in the end I might end up skipping it unless the process freaks me out. A lot of math type stuff involved...thanks for the info folks. It's much appreciated.

J

You're not an idiot.

It all depends on what you value more. Your time, or some extra $$$$. An AG brew day is a bit longer (5+ hours) than an extract brew day (3 hours or less). I enjoy mashing, but I also enjoy the simplicity of extract brewing. I only mash when a recipe calls for grain that requires mashing. Otherwise I stick with extract and specialty grains. The rest of my process stays the same either way, and the resulting beers come out awesome.
 
I'm not the most knowledgeable brewer in the world but nearly every extract batch I made had the "twang" you're sure to read about. That's the primary reason I switched to all grain. It was less apparent with a full boil but it was always there. Could be my methods, water quality, etc were to blame IDK. One things for sure, all brewing is fun and rewarding.
 
In the long run, time and money aren't necessarily a factor as long as the beer is good. In the end, it's all about the beer, and making the absolute best beer I can. As it is I'll be on my 3rd brew at the end of this month, so I have a feeling my best bet is to do a few more to get completely comfortable with the process, and if the difference in my comfort between the 2nd and 3rd is as noticable and it was between the 1st and 2nd, I'll get to AG soon enough. That whole crawl before you can walk thing, right?

Thanks again
J
 
I've read stories on here where AG'rs make an extract brew when they don't have time for AG,but want to keep up their pipeline. Some have said they see little difference in extract vs the average AG when done well. So it's a matter of choice. How much time do you wanna spend?

this is the boat I'm in. I love the process, and enjoy AG as much as I can, but when I don't have the time I brew extract, and I'll have to say that they are still pretty good! would venture to say as good as all grain
 
It's good to know there isn't a huge taste difference. Admittedly I was concerned that I was using these extract kits and still making inferior beer. Although I'm still a little over a week out from actually tasting one of my very own that's cold and carbonated.
I was looking at the recipe I made for my next intended brew and realized it has to be a partial mash, so I guess I won't be skipping that step in the process after all. Guess I'll have the break out how to brew again. Still have 3 weeks before brew day. Quite excited though.
 
I just brewed my 3rd all grain batch a couple days ago. I was very unhappy with my extract brews, I made a few decent ones, but nothing I was really proud of. However, my first all grain brew was/is great.

Taste aside, I love having all the options that all grain gives you with all the different kinds of grains. I also have a little more satisfaction knowing I made the beer from scratch
 
Going off what everyone else has said, I personally didn't make the move to partial mash until I had a good 15 batches under my belt. It takes time to learn what to/not to do with the very basics, and in the end, all-grain (from my tasting experience) leaves more room open for error, but also for a more expansive flavor profile in the end product.

In the time I've been learning (from extract to partials), I also started making my own recipes, which is one of those steps that you don't necessarily have to take, but it makes the whole "experiment" aspect of brewing all the more fun. :)
 
I tasted a massive difference when I switched to all grain. I enjoy the process more and hate having to deal with extract that just seems to stick to everything and make a mess. The only time I use it now is for starters.
 
AG is cheaper in the end, more fun, and allows you to control more variables, most importantly mash temp and its impact on FG/body. In my experience, my AG brews taste cleaner and less "homebrewy" than my extract batches. That said, you do have the initial investment in additional equipment and the extra time it takes on brewday. YMMV.
 
hops2it said:
I'm not the most knowledgeable brewer in the world but nearly every extract batch I made had the "twang" you're sure to read about. That's the primary reason I switched to all grain. It was less apparent with a full boil but it was always there. Could be my methods, water quality, etc were to blame IDK. One things for sure, all brewing is fun and rewarding.

I totally agree. I brewed one extract batch, (that's right, one) before ditching and going to all grain. Granted it was my first batch and can hardly be considered a testament to what kind of quality beer can be brewed using extract but that initial "twang" and off-flavor of my first taste-testing sealed the deal and I bought all the equipment to do all grain.

I actually wanted to start off brewing AG but was scared off initially by the amount of equipment and steps involved. The task may seem daunting at first but it becomes mindless the more you brew. I have made micros that rival large-scale breweries using AG...
 
RobWalker said:
I'm an extract/partial mash man. Totally hated AG - way too much effort for me. Each to their own though!

I don't understand - partial mash is exactly the same process as all grain.
 
Yeah, but the scale is a lot smaller so I find it easier and less laborious. The method I've adopted basically results in one 45 minute boil, wh ich is much easier :)

My problems largely came from trying to handle a large amount of materials in 2 stock pots. :)
 
its easier in on big pot. but i see what you're saying. this kinda proves the point anyway. neither is necessarily "better", it just depends on what works for you, and what you like doing. the end result we're all going for is still delicious beer! :mug:
 
Another key thing to think about here is that there are plenty of other factors that can influence your beer, be it extract, partial mash, or AG, that may be a smaller initial cost AND will continue to improve your beer before you go AG.

Do you currently do full boils? Even doing extract, doing a full boil can impact hop utilization and improve your end product.

Do you make starters? Doing starters can be a huge benefit to your end product.

Particularly since you want to brew as often as you've said, have you learned to wash and reuse yeast? This could make each batch you brew 5+ bucks cheaper, since you only have to buy yeast every so many batches (or when you want to use a strain you don't have on hand).

What kind of temperature control do you currently have for your fermenters? OK, this one can, and likely will, wind up more expensive than moving to AG - but it's arguably far more important to your end product! (And if you like building stuff, well, this can make a downright fun project)

Just remember that there are plenty of factors that go into improving your beer - AG definitely gives you a lot more options, but then it also gives you plenty more room to make mistakes too! ;)
 
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