What is the best way to whirlpool?

Currently brewing 5 gal batches of all-grain in a 10-gallon Megapot (no ports/bulkheads) and I'm having a very hard time getting a reliable cone of trub/break/hops in the center. I do rack from the side with an auto-siphon and feel i am successful at minimally disturbing the liquid after whirlpooling. I have used the drill-attached aerator with the swing-down nylon blades but the plastic shaft causes it to whip too much. I have used a big stainless spoon. Nothing is working well, though I remember a couple years ago having better success condensing the crap. Is it something to do with my pot geometry (too wide for this volume?) - is it not a vigorous enough boil do create sticky trub and chunks of break to hold the cone together? Would this stirrer possibly work better because of the metal shaft reducing whipping? http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/parts-list-using?page=12

Help please.. What can I do to improve my whirlpool?
Thanks

I would suggest not using an aerator for you whirlpool. Personal preference. I've actually had really good results just stirring with my mash paddle (which has been in and out of boiling liquid and taken a quick dunk in sanitizer so it's as clean as wood gets) and then draining my pot. Of course I have a valve and it sounds like you don't.

So, I'd say stop worrying so much. Your trub will fall out after fermentation. And what ever is left will fall out when you go into secondary. And if there's any miniscule amount left in will fall out in the bottle. And if there's still any left in suspension it will fall out if you just give your beer a week in the fridge.

My point is stop worrying about it. And all the technical crap. It's just going to make your head hurt and over complicate your brewing. (as a disclaimer you need some technical aspects to your brewing but you can't convince me that pot geometry has anything to do with your situation. A whirlpool is a whirlpool)

I think you're over thinking the problem. Of course we all have our pet peeves don't we?

^^^This. Just what perceived problem are you trying to solve by whirlpooling? Separation of the trub before going to the fermenter? Why bother when gravity will do it for you in the fermenter with the hops settling first and getting covered by the yeast which you rack above anyway.

I've never whirlpooled, couldn't tell you the first thing about it. I've got a basic pot with no valves or anything. I've typically use leaf hops and usually use hop bags throughout the boil to minimize this as much as possible. After chilling, i usually just dump the wort into the primary, trying to leave any break material in the pot. Sometimes if it looks excessive, I'll pour it through a sanitized strainer.

I don't claim to be a pro, but I agree with the other posts, most of the trub should settle during fermentation. I'll admit, I don't always get the clarity I would prefer, but that's not quite at the top of my priority list. I'm not aiming for winning awards with my homebrew. I enjoy the hobby, and drinking/sharing the results of my labor. You can make your brewing experience as labor intensive as you choose. It's all about your personal preference.

Agree with the above although I do whirlpool to try to reduce the amount of trub I transfer to primary. I don't obsess about it. Also, if you are looking for a tight bound up "cone" of trub ... forget it! The trub just settles a bit more in the center of the pot leaving the trub at the edges a little less deep. You will rack less, (I use a an auto-syphon) but you will always get some unless you want to leave behind a lot of wort. Nothing I know of makes the trub "sticky"!

I siphon from my pot to the primary. This leaves behind a lot of true. I used to pour into primary and found pouring 3 to 5 gallons terribly difficult.

Thanks for your replies. I didn't really intend for this to be about the value (or lack thereof) of the whirlpooling, I am interested in the best technique to do so.

Perhaps there is not a tremendous value in omitting some trub from my fermenter but I see it as something that doesn't take a lot of effort, and so to me it's worthwhile if I can improve clarity and reduce the potential for off-flavors. Part of the reason I have been brewing for close to 10 years but only more consistently and seriously lately is that earlier efforts resulted in brews that tasted "off". I like to show off my better beers to my friends and have them be impressed that this was made at home. So any small source of off-flavors is worth removing to me. Likewise I want it to be as clear as possible as the appearance is more important to non-homebrewers or non-craft beer lovers. Yes, I'm a perfectionist. That's my rationale for wanting to omit as much trub as is feasible.

As far as stickiness - that was a poor choice of words. What I meant is I've seen trub and hops coalesce into more of a defined mass around which clear wort can be racked. Both personally and like in this photo:


So to summarize, I'm not worrying so much, I know that some stuff besides clear wort will make it into the primary and secondary and into the keg, and it will settle with time. I still would like to reduce/minimize it if for nothing else to have less time to wait for things to clarify.

I dont know much brewing but it looks like they used whole hops in that pic.

For a good whirlpool i would say dont go crazy just keep a constant spin and you should be good to go. I use a paint strainer on my bucket when i pour the wort to filter out the bigger things. The strainer i think in my little world also helps to aerate the wort.

When I whirlpool I get a good spin going with the biggest spoon I can lay my hands on. I get a nice pile of mess in my keggle. Hops or pellets regardless. The keggle bottom is concave and it's shape naturally helps to act as a mitt for all the break so that may also be an advantage there

Im working on incorporating my pump and therminator into the mix so i can chill the entire volume while i whirlpool but im still in planning stages there.

The master brewer at a local microbrewery turned me on to the necessity of whirlpooling after hanging out with him after a brew session. He mentioned that the break left at the bottom of the tun after a successful whirlpool contains proteins have potential to contribute significant off flavors in beer. (I said POTENTIAL to contribute). Something else about "soapification". He also filters the wort through a giant hop back/keg packed with hops. His wort was crystal clear going into the fermenter.

eyedoctodd said:

Currently brewing 5 gal batches of all-grain in a 10-gallon Megapot (no ports/bulkheads) and I'm having a very hard time getting a reliable cone of trub/break/hops in the center. I do rack from the side with an auto-siphon and feel i am successful at minimally disturbing the liquid after whirlpooling. I have used the drill-attached aerator with the swing-down nylon blades but the plastic shaft causes it to whip too much. I have used a big stainless spoon. Nothing is working well, though I remember a couple years ago having better success condensing the crap. Is it something to do with my pot geometry (too wide for this volume?) - is it not a vigorous enough boil do create sticky trub and chunks of break to hold the cone together? Would this stirrer possibly work better because of the metal shaft reducing whipping? http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/parts-list-using?page=12

Help please.. What can I do to improve my whirlpool?
Thanks

Click to expand...

How do you currently chill your wort?
How long do you stir the wort for currently when you whirlpool?

I ask because I am trying to figure out the purpose for your whirlpool. IMO this is a tough question to answer because you say your pot does not have an outlet setup on it, which really limits your options. The other thing is, if you arent pulling the wort out of the kettle from the bottom via a bulkhead/hop screen (as you say you use a siphon) if you wait long enough the particulate will drop to the bottom anyways, and you can carefully siphon the wort out.

With the gear you have its going to be tough to whirlpool any other way than with a spoon without spending money on a pump and adding a bulkhead to your kettle and purchase the Jamil styled whirlpool chiller from More Beer - http://morebeer.com/view_product/9146/102205/Wort_Chiller_Recirculation_Package_-_Option_One and description here - http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php

If you are looking for a way to get the particulate to be chunky and stick together, do you use something like whirfloc in the boil? That will help with that and will probably help achieve the results you desire.

Holter

Hi LA Kings Guy, How's Mike Richards working out for you? May be better now that his drinking buddy High 'N Wide, oops, I mean Jeff Carter - is there with him. Lotsa luck with those two..

I stir for about 2 minutes with a big metal spoon to create as big and smooth a whirlpool as I can and try to cleanly take out the spoon without disturbing the whirlpool.
I normally will let that sit for at least a half hour while I start to clean up some equipment before siphoning to the fermenter.
Currently I chill with an IC built from 3/8 copper coil connected to a faucet and it drops from boil down to 65F in about 35 minutes (at least in winter). I do that before attempting to whirlpool to avoid hot side aeration. It sits for the half hour with the sanitized kettle lid shielding it from the elements.

I have been considering building a Jamil-o-chiller (I already have a March 809 pump but haven't used it yet). From what I read, the point of the whirlpool his device makes is to help chill more efficiently, not separate wort from hops and break material. I would still probably want to create some sort of a stirring whirlpool for that purpose (separation).

I am hesitant to pump anything through a plate chiller that might have particles or chunks of any kind - regardless of my ability to pump hot wort through it prior to cooling I don't want bits of hops or break catching in there that could grow nasty stuff between brew sessions. I brew with a friend who is a sanitation Nazi who whirlpools (while hot) his 28-gallon kettle with a large stainless mash paddle, lets that sit for 1/2 hour during cleanup, then pumps through a therminator to his conical. He gets a nice solid dome (if not cone) of break in the bottom center of his B3 28-gallon kettle. Side port on the kettle into the March pump.

I think he back flushes, but the whole brew day is such a production, volume- and manpower-wise that most of the help can't stay the whole day. Usually I am the grunt force up front milling the grain and mashing in, others show up at whirlpool and stay through final cleanup. Many will judge the effort involved but this man produces some fantastic, award-winning (and in my own experience, panty-dropping) beers. So there you have it.

To answer your last question, I have been using standard Irish moss, but I've been reading about and intend to try out whirlfloc tablets.

Thanks for your helpful and insightful reply!
Todd

check out kaiser's thread about whirlpooling

eyedoctodd said:

I stir for about 2 minutes with a big metal spoon to create as big and smooth a whirlpool as I can and try to cleanly take out the spoon without disturbing the whirlpool.
I normally will let that sit for at least a half hour while I start to clean up some equipment before siphoning to the fermenter.
Currently I chill with an IC built from 3/8 copper coil connected to a faucet and it drops from boil down to 65F in about 35 minutes (at least in winter). I do that before attempting to whirlpool to avoid hot side aeration. It sits for the half hour with the sanitized kettle lid shielding it from the elements.

Click to expand...

In my opinion i wouldn't worry too much about hot side aeration. I know a lot of people do, and that is fine, but i have never seen any effect from it.

I have been considering building a Jamil-o-chiller (I already have a March 809 pump but haven't used it yet). From what I read, the point of the whirlpool his device makes is to help chill more efficiently, not separate wort from hops and break material. I would still probably want to create some sort of a stirring whirlpool for that purpose (separation).

Click to expand...

Well, chilling efficiently is definitely a part of whirlpooling, but its not the only reason. For me, its an additional method for getting hop aroma out of your late hop additions, generally the flame out hops. The last reason for me is for hop separation. I personally dont care much about getting break into my fermenter. Cold break or hot break, i really dont care. I suppose if i was harvesting the yeast from the finished fermenter i would prefer there be less break in it, but to me that stuff is fine for the fermenter. What i dont want in my fermenter is the hops. I use 100% pellet hops in my system, and i have never found good false bottom for hop pellets. I hear the hop stopper works great but ive never tried it. When I whirlpool i want the hops to be in suspension and i want them to settle down in the center of the kettle. What i have found is that when you pump out the wort the suction is enough to pick up the break material, but not enough to pick up the hops - this is what I want. So its not just about chilling.

I am hesitant to pump anything through a plate chiller that might have particles or chunks of any kind - regardless of my ability to pump hot wort through it prior to cooling I don't want bits of hops or break catching in there that could grow nasty stuff between brew sessions. I brew with a friend who is a sanitation Nazi who whirlpools (while hot) his 28-gallon kettle with a large stainless mash paddle, lets that sit for 1/2 hour during cleanup, then pumps through a therminator to his conical. He gets a nice solid dome (if not cone) of break in the bottom center of his B3 28-gallon kettle. Side port on the kettle into the March pump.

Click to expand...

I hear you there. I have a therminator and have had all sorts of issues getting material through it. To clean it I usually just hook up a hose to the beer out side and turn it on full blast because i dont have the backflush adapter.

To answer your last question, I have been using standard Irish moss, but I've been reading about and intend to try out whirlfloc tablets.

Click to expand...

Ive never actually used Irish moss in a beer, or if i did it was years ago and I dont remember the results. What i can tell you about whirlfloc is that I have used it religously over the past 5 years or so. It really does a good job of making all of the break material stick to each other in the kettle. If you are looking for more particulate to drop out of suspension, I would at least give it a shot for a batch and see if it is different.

Now that we got all of that beer stuff out of the way I can focus on your hockey chirps...

How's Mike Richards working out for you? May be better now that his drinking buddy High 'N Wide, oops, I mean Jeff Carter - is there with him. Lotsa luck with those two..

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He is working out great. I am actually from just outside of Philadelphia, so I am a Flyers fan. Ive been living in california for a long enough time that I drifted over to the Kings, but i still watch every Flyers game. One of the things you probably know about Mike Richards is that he doesnt just score goals. He brings so much other stuff to the team, hes been a great addition. That said, would i like it if he scored more? Yes, but then again, Id like it if all of the Kings scored more. I was never a big fan of Carter on the Flyers, i felt like his 50 goal season was a fluke and that he was a chucker. We will see how that works out. I would ask you how Bryz has worked out but i feel like that is taking a shot at my own team so its just not worth it.

Good luck with the brewing.

Holter said:

In my opinion i wouldn't worry too much about hot side aeration. I know a lot of people do, and that is fine, but i have never seen any effect from it.

Click to expand...

Good to hear. Honestly, from what I hear, HSA is more an issue with flavor stability, and anything I brew that's tasty doesn't last that long.

Holter said:

Well, chilling efficiently is definitely a part of whirlpooling, but its not the only reason. For me, its an additional method for getting hop aroma out of your late hop additions, generally the flame out hops. The last reason for me is for hop separation. I personally dont care much about getting break into my fermenter. Cold break or hot break, i really dont care. I suppose if i was harvesting the yeast from the finished fermenter i would prefer there be less break in it, but to me that stuff is fine for the fermenter. What i dont want in my fermenter is the hops. I use 100% pellet hops in my system, and i have never found good false bottom for hop pellets. I hear the hop stopper works great but ive never tried it. When I whirlpool i want the hops to be in suspension and i want them to settle down in the center of the kettle. What i have found is that when you pump out the wort the suction is enough to pick up the break material, but not enough to pick up the hops - this is what I want. So its not just about chilling.

Click to expand...

The more I hear, the more I'm thinking about a hop stopper. I'm going to have one port on my BK so I don't see a tangential welded port in my future.

Holter said:

I hear you there. I have a therminator and have had all sorts of issues getting material through it. To clean it I usually just hook up a hose to the beer out side and turn it on full blast because i dont have the backflush adapter.

Click to expand...

Thank you for validating this concern. Some I have talked to have made me sound a little crazy.

Holter said:

Ive never actually used Irish moss in a beer, or if i did it was years ago and I dont remember the results. What i can tell you about whirlfloc is that I have used it religously over the past 5 years or so. It really does a good job of making all of the break material stick to each other in the kettle. If you are looking for more particulate to drop out of suspension, I would at least give it a shot for a batch and see if it is different.

Click to expand...

Definitely trying the whirlfloc next time.

Holter said:

Now that we got all of that beer stuff out of the way I can focus on your hockey chirps...

He is working out great. I am actually from just outside of Philadelphia, so I am a Flyers fan. Ive been living in california for a long enough time that I drifted over to the Kings, but i still watch every Flyers game. One of the things you probably know about Mike Richards is that he doesnt just score goals. He brings so much other stuff to the team, hes been a great addition. That said, would i like it if he scored more? Yes, but then again, Id like it if all of the Kings scored more. I was never a big fan of Carter on the Flyers, i felt like his 50 goal season was a fluke and that he was a chucker. We will see how that works out. I would ask you how Bryz has worked out but i feel like that is taking a shot at my own team so its just not worth it.

Click to expand...

Well, my biggest issue with Richards is his leadership when the chips are down. In the finals against Chicago there was an interview when I think we were down 3-1 in the series or thereabouts and we had been playing well but just not scoring. They asked him basically what are you going to change to get pucks in the net, and his reply was heartbreaking to me. It was in effect, "We have nothing we can do except keep doing the same thing." His team and I needed to hear him say that he would find WHATEVER the F he had to to make (Flyers' victories) happen. I lost so much hope and so much respect in him that night. For me, it was not a problem at all when I heard he was traded in 2011. He's always been great as a SHG threat on the PK but in the end he couldn't deliver on leadership when it was down to the line (IMO). Sounds like we agree on Jeff Carter.

My method is to stir my wort with a plastic mash paddle and just get it rotating nice and quick and then let it go for a couple of minutes as I hook up the water and pre-chill my CFC.

By then a good portion of the larger chunks has started collecting in the center. I siphon from the outside near the top and lower the siphon as I go.

Well, that's how I used to do it. Last brew I used only Whole hops and I placed a copper scrubby pad over the end of the dip tube and shoved it down to the bottom near the edge. The wort came out VERY clear for almost the entire way.

I'm curious to see how pellet hops compares now.

At any rate, both methods created a mound of gunk in the center of the kettle that I could mostly avoid without any trouble.

What about simply re-circulating at the end of the boil, through a large mesh bag? this would help strain a lot of the mess out of the wort, before running it through the plate chiller. Has anyone done this? I just bought a plate chiller and would like to avoid getting crap stuck inside it.

I think that's an option. Even though I say I'm not too concerned with HSA I would be a little concerned with pushing the wort through a bag while its hot.

My process is now a combo of immersion chiller during whirlpool and therminator on the way out of the kettle. For a 10 minute whirlpool I'm getting my wort down to about 100F and through the therminator down to about 60F.

Back to the Hockey chirps, Richards and Carter worked out just fine . If we could only end this damn lockout and raise the banner!

Parise - Suiter sick acquistion for the Wild. and yes, bugger off lockout!

AndMan3030 said:

What about simply re-circulating at the end of the boil, through a large mesh bag? this would help strain a lot of the mess out of the wort, before running it through the plate chiller. Has anyone done this? I just bought a plate chiller and would like to avoid getting crap stuck inside it.

Click to expand...

I tried this my last brew day (last Sunday). It did not work as planned - the bag blew up like a wort balloon. I had to lance it with a knife, then squeeze it with my bare hands to keep from losing a gallon or two.

To fully explain, the bag was my hop bag (a 5 gallon paint strainer bag), which was attached to my hop spider, so it had been in the boil the entire time and was full of several ounces of hops. I doubt a clean bag would have been much different, though.

Regarding your new plate chiller, I wouldn't worry about break material - I've been happily running non-filtered wort through mine for several batches now without any issues. Just keep the hops separate, as they can definitely cause clogging.

The more I read this thread the more I get confused. I'm just about finished converting a couple of kegs and hoping to get a feel for the process to cool and whirlpool. Can someone tell me if I'm on the right track please?

Assumptions:
Currently use immersion chiller but looking to move to CF or plate.
Currently use hop socks but looking to use hop spider with bag or fine screen.
Herms Rig will have two pumps.
Hope to incorporate a prechiller bath after initial drop to + / - 100 F.
Both inlet and valve drain are bent toward side wall.

Process:
A.) With hops confined to spider, recirculate wort to CF or Plate C 15 min prior to end of boil to sanitize.
B.) Use ground water and recirculate through CF or Plate to lower wort temp to around 100 F
C.) Once below 100 F stop ground water and use prechiller bath to get to pitching temp
D.) Once at pitching temp recirculate for another 15min to get a good whirlpool going
E.) Shut down pump and allow trub cone to form
F.) Open valve and pump to fermenter

If I go with a Plate Chiller I may or may not need a prechiller and if I'm recirculating the for the duration of the cooling time I may not need the additional 15 minutes to create the trub cone.

Am I thinking about this right?

I stir 15gal bathes by hand. Never wait more than 5 minutes before draining off the side. Never a prob. Always a nice cone in the middle. One trick is to be sure you put the lid back on after stirring. The surface cooling (up/down) really messes up the centrifugal action of the whirlpool.