Grain Mill Survey

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frowhite

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I am a mechanical engineering student and for a project my group wanted to design a better grain mill for home brewing. To start this project we are trying to get an idea of the new features that people would want.

What I am asking for is any feedback that you feel would be helpful.

According to forum rules its my understanding that I can't link an external forum, but if you would be willing to answer some questions in this thread I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you for your help
(PS: If i am violating any forum rules please let me know and I will remove this post)


University of New Mexico Mechanical Engineering Design V Project
Grain Milling survey


1. How experienced are you in brewing
a. Novice
b. Intermediate
c. Advanced

2. Do you currently mill your own grain for brewing?
a. No
b. Sometimes
c. Often

3. How important is automation (non-hand crank) in grain milling?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

4. Would you be interested in a combination grain mill and digital scale (even at a higher cost)?
a. No
b. Maybe
c. Yes

5. For an automated mill, how much time would you expect to process 10 lbs of grain?
a. Within 10 minutes
b. Within 1/2 hour
c. Greater than an Hour

6. For an automated mill, how important is an adjustable crush feature for different types of grain?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

7. For an automated mill, how important is out of the box (no/very little assembly, modification or additional required parts) operation?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

8. How important is achieving proper crush?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

9. For an automated mill, how much would you be willing to spend?
a. $100-$300
b. $301-$500
c. $501-$700

10. What size hopper would satisfy your home brewing needs?
a. Less than or around 12 pounds
b. Between 12 and 15 pounds
c. Larger than 15 pounds

11. How important are interchangeable sized hoppers?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

12. For an automated mill, how important is portability/ weight/ storage space?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

13. Please add any comments to help us determine a better design for a home grain mill.
 
1.C
2. Always
3.C (mine came with hand crank I hook a drill to it)
4.B
5. Less than 10 Min
6.B
7.A
8.B
9.B ( for that much should come with stand )
10. D ( mine holds 30#)
11.A
12.B
13.
 
1. How experienced are you in brewing
a. Novice
b. Intermediate
c. Advanced

2. Do you currently mill your own grain for brewing?
a. No
b. Sometimes
c. Often

3. How important is automation (non-hand crank) in grain milling?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

4. Would you be interested in a combination grain mill and digital scale (even at a higher cost)?
a. No
b. Maybe
c. Yes

5. For an automated mill, how much time would you expect to process 10 lbs of grain?
a. Within 10 minutes
b. Within 1/2 hour
c. Greater than an Hour

6. For an automated mill, how important is an adjustable crush feature for different types of grain?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

7. For an automated mill, how important is out of the box (no/very little assembly, modification or additional required parts) operation?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

8. How important is achieving proper crush?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

9. For an automated mill, how much would you be willing to spend?
a. $100-$300
b. $301-$500
c. $501-$700

10. What size hopper would satisfy your home brewing needs?
a. Less than or around 12 pounds
b. Between 12 and 15 pounds
c. Larger than 15 pounds

11. How important are interchangeable sized hoppers?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

12. For an automated mill, how important is portability/ weight/ storage space?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

13. Please add any comments to help us determine a better design for a home grain mill.

I prefer stainless steel and would like parts to be replaceable or upgradeable as $ allows.
 
frowhite said:
....
Thank you for your help
(
University of New Mexico Mechanical Engineering Design V Project
Grain Milling survey


1. How experienced are you in brewing
a. Novice
b. Intermediate
 c. Advanced

2. Do you currently mill your own grain for brewing?
a. No
b. Sometimes
c. Often

3. How important is automation (non-hand crank) in grain milling?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

4. Would you be interested in a combination grain mill and digital scale (even at a higher cost)?
a. No
b. Maybe
c. Yes

5. For an automated mill, how much time would you expect to process 10 lbs of grain?
a. Within 10 minutes
 b. Within 1/2 hour
c. Greater than an Hour

6. For an automated mill, how important is an adjustable crush feature for different types of grain?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

7. For an automated mill, how important is out of the box (no/very little assembly, modification or additional required parts) operation?
a. Not important
 b. Somewhat important
c. Important

8. How important is achieving proper crush?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

9. For an automated mill, how much would you be willing to spend?
a. $100-$300
 b. $301-$500
c. $501-$700

10. What size hopper would satisfy your home brewing needs?
a. Less than or around 12 pounds
b. Between 12 and 15 pounds
c. Larger than 15 pounds

11. How important are interchangeable sized hoppers?
a. Not important
 b. Somewhat important
c. Important

12. For an automated mill, how important is portability/ weight/ storage space?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

13. Please add any comments to help us determine a better design for a home grain mill.
Click to expand...
...
 
1. b. Intermediate
2. c. Often
3. c. Important
4. a. No
5. a. Within 10 minutes
6. c. Important
7. a. Not important
8. c. Important
9. a. $100-$300
10. b. Between 12 and 15 pounds
11. b. Somewhat important
12. b. Somewhat important
13.
Q7 - not important to me personally but if this was a retail product I would say no DIY should be needed for the motor side of things (coupling to the mill and electrical). This is to reduce risk/liability to the seller if someone does it wrong and hurts/kills themself.
This might sound harsh but what is your actual scope for the project and for improving the grain mill? If it is just an out of the box solution I would advise against doing this for a Bachlors degree final year project (only assuming that from Design 5 project). There is little engineering design around buying and bolting a few things together and wiring a motor, a year or 2 before my time through engineering school a team failed their final year project because all they did was buy a camcorder, fleaxable lense exteder, a backpack and a headlamp. Through the camcorder in the backpack and "attached" the lense extender to the headlamp. Boom... instant fail.

I would look at improving upon the existing common roller mill design, e.g. including an adjustment dial so you do not need to feeler gauge the gap, or a hopper with inprocess malt conditioning, or away from the mill a homebrew scale hydrator (forgot the actual term for this) that can be attached to the strike water supply and filled with the grain bill and it combines the grain and strike water nicely to avoid doughballs. The thing to the left of the guy in the red hat's hands in the picture
AugieRyePA4.jpg
 
University of New Mexico Mechanical Engineering Design V Project
Grain Milling survey
1. c
2. c
3. c
4. a
5. x Under 2 minutes
6. c
7. a
8. c
9. a
10. x Larger than 20 pounds
11. a
12. b
Click to expand...
 
No offense; but question 5 was not written from a position of experience. Probably average batch is 5-10 gal with an average 10-20# of grain. The actual Grind takes 15 min for the whole thing

Automation and scales are lick and stick add ons that don't enhance the mill itself or the way it performs.

IMHO; if you wanted to enhance milling for the homebrewer, you would attempt to emulate the mill of the pro brewer (multi pass mill with classified partical separation)

A mill that separates the endosperm from hull material with hulls intact, where the endo is passed through another roll set that has a tighter gap.

Brewhouse efficiency; that's where it's at. Bring pro quality to the home brewer.

Give this a read;
http://509899.cache1.evolutionhosting.com/wp-content/uploads/ImprovingBrewhouseEfficiency-Havig.pdf

Two words ; sieve analysis
 
mattd2 said:
1. b. Intermediate
2. c. Often
3. c. Important
4. a. No
5. a. Within 10 minutes
6. c. Important
7. a. Not important
8. c. Important
9. a. $100-$300
10. b. Between 12 and 15 pounds
11. b. Somewhat important
12. b. Somewhat important
13.
Q7 - not important to me personally but if this was a retail product I would say no DIY should be needed for the motor side of things (coupling to the mill and electrical). This is to reduce risk/liability to the seller if someone does it wrong and hurts/kills themself.
This might sound harsh but what is your actual scope for the project and for improving the grain mill? If it is just an out of the box solution I would advise against doing this for a Bachlors degree final year project (only assuming that from Design 5 project). There is little engineering design around buying and bolting a few things together and wiring a motor, a year or 2 before my time through engineering school a team failed their final year project because all they did was buy a camcorder, fleaxable lense exteder, a backpack and a headlamp. Through the camcorder in the backpack and "attached" the lense extender to the headlamp. Boom... instant fail.

I would look at improving upon the existing common roller mill design, e.g. including an adjustment dial so you do not need to feeler gauge the gap, or a hopper with inprocess malt conditioning, or away from the mill a homebrew scale hydrator (forgot the actual term for this) that can be attached to the strike water supply and filled with the grain bill and it combines the grain and strike water nicely to avoid doughballs. The thing to the left of the guy in the red hat's hands in the picture
Click to expand...

That's a Foremasher. It mixes water and grain as it falls to the mash tun so there are no dough balls or rafts.
 
1. How experienced are you in brewing
a. Novice Started out with mead, but been into beer zymurgy for about one year. I will never be at the advanced stage unless make a recipe that sells to millions worldwide.
b. Intermediate
c. Advanced

2. Do you currently mill your own grain for brewing?
a. No LHBS does if for me, however I am looking for a new mill.
b. Sometimes
c. Often

3. How important is automation (non-hand crank) in grain milling?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important I can’t imagine hand cranking 40 lbs of barley.

4. Would you be interested in a combination grain mill and digital scale (even at a higher cost)?
a. No
b. Maybe It would depend on cost.
c. Yes

5. For an automated mill, how much time would you expect to process 10 lbs of grain?
a. Within 10 minutes
b. Within 1/2 hour
c. Greater than an Hour

6. For an automated mill, how important is an adjustable crush feature for different types of grain?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important This would be a nice option to switch from BIAB and a 3V system. Different brewing systems produce different different gravity results using the same weight of barley. For me it would be nice to experiment and switch back and forth if someone has a different system that would require a different crush.

7. For an automated mill, how important is out of the box (no/very little assembly, modification or additional required parts) operation?
a. Not important Not very, for most people (but not all) DIY is part of the fun.
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

8. How important is achieving proper crush?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important Crush is extremely important. In a 3V system if the grain is too fine then the result will be a stuck sparge, if the crush is too coarse then the efficiency will suffer.

9. For an automated mill, how much would you be willing to spend?
a. $100-$300 Over 700USD, I could build a really nice brew stand or spend the money on grain.
b. $301-$500
c. $501-$700

10. What size hopper would satisfy your home brewing needs?
a. Less than or around 12 pounds
b. Between 12 and 15 pounds
c. Larger than 15 pounds I like big beers

11. How important are interchangeable sized hoppers?
a. Not important As a home brewer it’s not so important. If I have to add more grain to the hopper once or twice, it’s no biggie
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

12. For an automated mill, how important is portability/ weight/ storage space?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important Portability and space consideration would be nice. I like to travel and take my homebrew equipment with me. Airlines nowadays are just aholes when it comes to weight. However, if you’re at home with a spouse that might not be practical to just pick up and go whenever you like. In that case portability is not a concern.
c. Important

13. Please add any comments to help us determine a better design for a home grain mill.


[/LEFT]
 
Brewskii said:
No offense; but question 5 was not written from a position of experience. Probably average batch is 5-10 gal with an average 10-20# of grain. The actual Grind takes 15 min for the whole thing

Automation and scales are lick and stick add ons that don't enhance the mill itself or the way it performs.

IMHO; if you wanted to enhance milling for the homebrewer, you would attempt to emulate the mill of the pro brewer (multi pass mill with classified partical separation)

A mill that separates the endosperm from hull material with hulls intact, where the endo is passed through another roll set that has a tighter gap.

Brewhouse efficiency; that's where it's at. Bring pro quality to the home brewer.

Give this a read;
http://509899.cache1.evolutionhosting.com/wp-content/uploads/ImprovingBrewhouseEfficiency-Havig.pdf

Two words ; sieve analysis
Click to expand...

I have a fixed roller mill and I run 85% efficiency. On my RIMS's setups. I have not had a problem with the single pass mill if set correctly. I have a drill hooked to mine that can run 30# of grain in under 10min. I regularly do 10gal batches with 28-36# grain bills, I only run 10gal batches.
 
Darkness said:
I have a fixed roller mill and I run 85% efficiency. On my RIMS's setups. I have not had a problem with the single pass mill if set correctly. I have a drill hooked to mine that can run 30# of grain in under 10min. I regularly do 10gal batches with 28-36# grain bills, I only run 10gal batches.
Click to expand...

Cool. Sounds like a really nice set up. Have you ever run ASBC standard sieve analysis on your grind ? I would be interested to see if you've noticed any variation in your grinds running your roller mill at >3#/min versus a slower rate.

BTW... I'm just guessing on the average grain bills of the recipies I've seen over the years. 28#s of grain for a 10 gallon batch on my system with 85% efficiency would yield a brew of 9.2% ABV... I don't think that many would Argue that's a higher than average number.
 
1. How experienced are you in brewing
a. Novice
b. Intermediate
c. Advanced Slightly more than a decade

2. Do you currently mill your own grain for brewing?
a. No
b. Sometimes
c. Often Always actually

3. How important is automation (non-hand crank) in grain milling?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

4. Would you be interested in a combination grain mill and digital scale (even at a higher cost)?
a. No
b. Maybe I tend to like things to be more modular than integrated. For example, I have no interest in ever buying an "all-in-one" printer.
c. Yes

5. For an automated mill, how much time would you expect to process 10 lbs of grain?
a. Within 10 minutes
b. Within 1/2 hour
c. Greater than an Hour

6. For an automated mill, how important is an adjustable crush feature for different types of grain?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

7. For an automated mill, how important is out of the box (no/very little assembly, modification or additional required parts) operation?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

8. How important is achieving proper crush?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important Even if it only cost $20, I probably wouldn't use it if it didn't crush well

9. For an automated mill, how much would you be willing to spend?
a. $100-$300
b. $301-$500 I would hope not much more than $300 because I could do a DIY one for less.
c. $501-$700

10. What size hopper would satisfy your home brewing needs?
a. Less than or around 12 pounds
b. Between 12 and 15 pounds
c. Larger than 15 pounds

11. How important are interchangeable sized hoppers?
a. Not important To me personally not important because I only brew 5 gallon batches.
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

12. For an automated mill, how important is portability/ weight/ storage space?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important It can't take up half my garage.

13. Please add any comments to help us determine a better design for a home grain mill.

  • Being able to adjust the mill gap is important, but it also needs to be easy. If you have to take the mill apart to adjust the gap, I'd say that's a bad design.
  • Materials are important. Need to be food-grade. Need to last.
  • Some kind of coating or material that keeps grain dust from building up would be nice. I've noticed this especially on my grain mill's output...seems to get statically charged and I see dust and bits of grain husks sticking to various surfaces.
  • Safety especially if powered. No exposed belts, gears, pulleys, etc.
  • Easy dis-assembly for cleaning would be nice. Preferably this would be something that didn't require tools. Also preferably it would maintain your mill gap settings and not require re-alignment of the rollers or anything like that.
  • Geared rollers would be nice. I think only one manufacturer currently has them.
 
University of New Mexico Mechanical Engineering Design V Project
Grain Milling survey

1. C. Advanced

2. C. Often

3. C. Important

4. C. Yes (In fact that would be awesome!)

5. A. Within 10 minutes

6. C. Important, imperative even.

7. A. Not important- I'll assemble and acquire what's needed to mount to my milling station, but the mill itself should contain all parts.

8. C. Important, crucial, biggest concern

9. A. $100-$300, though I'm cheap.

10. C. 15 pounds would be best, especially if there's a digital scale involved.

11. A. Not important

12. B. Somewhat important, in a furniture-rearrangement sense. I don't move the mill for each use.

13. I'm picturing our standard mill but with a scale, somehow, on top of the hopper. Scoop in grain (say 9 lbs of 2-row), open a trapdoor below the scale, grain goes in hopper and in the mill. Kyle
 
1. B
2. A
3. B
4. A (not a bad idea, but not for an added cost.
5. A
6. C
7. B
8. C
9. B (Though I can go A as well)
10. B (same as above)
11. A
12. C mroe the size than the weight for me

13. All I need is food safe and durable. Everything I can give or take.
 
1) A
2) C
3) B
4) B
5) A
6) C
7) A
8) C
9) A (we are talking for homebrewing scale)
10) B
11) A
12) A
13) Mark a range of LABELLED gap settings for adjustment, not just one or two. Find an effective way to keep any idle rollers turning (NO STINKIN' O-RINGS!). Consider gear reduction at the input shaft, assuming that we are to power it with our own drills, this would allow for more consistent speed with plenty of torque for the Harbor Freight crowd. A flywheel to maintain roller speed, even when it eats a fistful of un-stirred Carapils, is not that crazy of an idea. Longer rollers = happier brewers. Larger diameter rollers = happier brewers (see idle roller engagement suggestion). Make it out of stainless, homebrewers are retarded for stainless. Consider making the base or mount adaptable to fit on or over a 15.5 gallon sanke keg.
 
Brewskii said:
Cool. Sounds like a really nice set up. Have you ever run ASBC standard sieve analysis on your grind ? I would be interested to see if you've noticed any variation in your grinds running your roller mill at >3#/min versus a slower rate.

BTW... I'm just guessing on the average grain bills of the recipies I've seen over the years. 28#s of grain for a 10 gallon batch on my system with 85% efficiency would yield a brew of 9.2% ABV... I don't think that many would Argue that's a higher than average number.
Click to expand...

Whats your gap set at?
 
frowhite said:
I am a mechanical engineering student and for a project my group wanted to design a better grain mill for home brewing. To start this project we are trying to get an idea of the new features that people would want.

What I am asking for is any feedback that you feel would be helpful.

According to forum rules its my understanding that I can't link an external forum, but if you would be willing to answer some questions in this thread I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you for your help
(PS: If i am violating any forum rules please let me know and I will remove this post)


University of New Mexico Mechanical Engineering Design V Project
Grain Milling survey


1. How experienced are you in brewing
a. Novice
b. Intermediate
c. Advanced

2. Do you currently mill your own grain for brewing?
a. No
b. Sometimes
c. Often
d. Always
3. How important is automation (non-hand crank) in grain milling?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

4. Would you be interested in a combination grain mill and digital scale (even at a higher cost)?
a. No
b. Maybe
c. Yes

5. For an automated mill, how much time would you expect to process 10 lbs of grain?
a. Within 10 minutes
b. Within 1/2 hour
c. Greater than an Hour

6. For an automated mill, how important is an adjustable crush feature for different types of grain?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important
7. For an automated mill, how important is out of the box (no/very little assembly, modification or additional required parts) operation?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

8. How important is achieving proper crush?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important
9. For an automated mill, how much would you be willing to spend?
a. $100-$300
b. $301-$500
c. $501-$700

10. What size hopper would satisfy your home brewing needs?
a. Less than or around 12 pounds
b. Between 12 and 15 pounds
c. Larger than 15 pounds
11. How important are interchangeable sized hoppers?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

12. For an automated mill, how important is portability/ weight/ storage space?
a. Not important
b. Somewhat important
c. Important

13. Please add any comments to help us determine a better design for a home grain mill.
Click to expand...

Increased durability and easy adjustment with a dial or some attached measuring device to negate feel gauges.
 
johns said:
Whats your gap set at?
Click to expand...

Couldn't say. Current I'm using a Corona (i know i know) and the nature of the beast makes that value fleeting at best. I'm very happy with what it gives me but it did take a while to get there. I was right at 80% mash efficiency withy latest set up.
 
University of New Mexico Mechanical Engineering Design V Project
Grain Milling survey


1. How experienced are you in brewing

c. Advanced

2. Do you currently mill your own grain for brewing?

c. Often

3. How important is automation (non-hand crank) in grain milling?

c. Important

4. Would you be interested in a combination grain mill and digital scale (even at a higher cost)?

b. Maybe


5. For an automated mill, how much time would you expect to process 10 lbs of grain?
a. Within 10 minutes


6. For an automated mill, how important is an adjustable crush feature for different types of grain?

c. Important

7. For an automated mill, how important is out of the box (no/very little assembly, modification or additional required parts) operation?
a. Not important


8. How important is achieving proper crush?

c. Important

9. For an automated mill, how much would you be willing to spend?

b. $301-$500


10. What size hopper would satisfy your home brewing needs?

c. Larger than 15 pounds

11. How important are interchangeable sized hoppers?
a. Not important


12. For an automated mill, how important is portability/ weight/ storage space?
a. Not important


13. Please add any comments to help us determine a better design for a home grain mill.

If you could do something like this but cheaper, sub $400/500 you would good.
http://morebeer.com/view_product/10069//The_UltiMill_Explosion_Proof_Motorized_Mill
 
Thank you for all of the replies so far. I would like to say a special thank you to everyone who attached links to help me read more on the subject.

I look forward to more responses.
 

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