Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

I brewed a Rye Barleywine 2 weeks ago and despite all my efforts, it hasn't attenuated to where I wanted (1.113 down to 1.034). This past weekend, I brewed a Wee-Heavy that is fermenting vigorously right now so I rigged a top cropping set-up. Hopefully the active Wee-Heavy yeast does some additional work on the Barleywine.

The Wee-Heavy fermenter is on the right, feeding the Barleywine it's krausen to the left. I'm not fermenting these under pressure but I wanted to show that it is possible to top crop under pressure. Both fermenters could be spunded in series from the one regulator on the left fermenter.
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I have been fermenting under pressure for over 5 years developing the OneDerBrew system. I use a pressure relief valve and have tried fermenting at 5,10,15,20,25,30, psi I have done ales and lagers, extract and all grain. Fermentation stops at about 30 to 32 psi but will resume if the pressure is dropped. The best results are when the pressure is kept between 10 and 18 psi.
I now aerate the wort using agitation and a drop of olive oil (a toothpick dipped in olive oil for 5 gallons). I have made over 900 batches using this method and have done many split batches to compare results,(pressure verses no pressure)(aeration techniques).
If pressure is maintained from the beginning of fermentation when the yeast are multiplying, (off flavors) fusal alcohols and Esters are drastically reduced. I spoke with Chris White from White labs at the homebrew conference in Seattle.
He endorsed this technique but said that it may reduce Esters in some of the Belgium style beers that want to retain some of the fruity ester y notes.
I agree somewhat but i still can get the result i am looking for with proper yeast selection.
By the way the folks at White labs are extremely helpful and easy to talk to.

Glad to know even Chris White supports that this technique isn't the boogieman. I am getting great results from leaving it open until I smell the burn, usually very strong the next morning when I check on it, then going to a slow crank down to build pressure. I try to hit 10 psi the day after pitching and hold that until I am 3-4 days in on an ale. Then I raise the temperature for a D-rest (even if it doesn't need one just to be sure) to 4-6*F above primary and set my carbonation per temperature each day thereafter about a psi or two higher than I want to finish (which is usually just the same as the highest volumes for that style in most cases). I am not even checking gravity anymore except post-boil and then FG when I have pulled my first pint. Easy brewing!

Onderbrew, I'm glad you are as experienced as you are with this technique, and being "in the biz" can get honest insight/advice into exactly as I've always said about it. It isn't a way to brew better beer, it is a way to "brew better" (read: for ease and simplicity for me). The added effects are a bonus, the single vessel is the reason for my treason from leaving the normal techniques behind IMHO.

With a keg and the techniques in this thread... Chill and Fill (or no-chill technique if you choose to), Ferment (and collect from cropping if set up), Lower esters and fusels (or don't and ferment like normal open to your blow-off buckets water pressure or airlock if you build it that way), Carbonate to finishing volumes while doing a diacetyl rest and then crash cool to settle and clean (or transfer after fermenting, crashing, resting and force carbonate later in your serving vessel like you've always done before). There is no down-side to me if you already keg your beer and can afford to build the spunding valve (which comes in really handy as a multi-tasker in the brew house filling kegs under counter-pressure).

Maybe it isn't catching on as a viable and accepted technique fast enough because the name is too long or something. I know there are some slower swimmers in life. Maybe I should rename the technique I use (but did not create myself) Ferm-UP. Then it sounds like a infomercial pill or gadget.

"Ferment Under Pressure, Ferm-UP America!"

I think I'm hungover a little bit from my delicious bounties from the keg-a-copia in my kegerator.

Id like to hear what yeasts people are having the best success with? Specifically a clean, bright profile for ales.

I've used the technique plenty but have been using up my supply of S-05 and am not happy with the weird flavor I'm getting; I contribute it to that specific yeast and not the process necessarily.

Pickles, I'd be happy to hear your exact process. Im very curious about this weird taste you speak of. I wonder if it is something that is just being overlooked because of simplicity. I hope to hear the whole process and ingredients from the start to see. I am very happy using strong starters and have maybe two batches that I can account to me and yeast rather than the technique.

Pickles, I have noticed great taste improvement in my beers by fermenting 3-4 days then ramping up to higher temperatures to finish. Do you do something similar?

No I was keeping temps pretty stable 62F-63F the whole time then a D-rest at 70F for a few days. My friends don't seem to notice the flavor but is about makes me gag. I don't have recipes off hand but all have been APAs and IPAs. Most had Simcoe in them, but can't remember rest of ingredients. They were pretty basic though mostly 2-row, crystal 40, maybe a dash of Munich. They were all fermented with S-05 though so I contributed the flavor to the yeast.

Weird! Doesn't sound like it could be anything but the yeast then. I have to always remember that I am my biggest and worst critic so I always take others advice in whether my beers are good or not. This blonde I just made is fantastic, but for some reason it became untapped and lost carbonation. It started tasting weird, then I noticed the pours slowing down. Retapped it, it carbonated back up after two days, and is back where it was when I thought it wonderful. So many things to tweak in this craft that can make the difference.

So that said, what yeast do you like for clean ales? I guess I'm curious what your go to yeast is? I know you mentioned really liking a yeast you recently tried, I think it was and English strain. I'm definitely sold on this technique for ease and simplicity; obviously it took a bit of work upfront to get the spunding set-up built but then its smooth sailing.

I really like wlp007 dry English ale yeast. Flocs like a sender bloc dropped in a swimming pool. I really like wlp001 for clean ales, but that's just like us-05 IMHO. I just started having better results after listening to Jamil about raising the temperature after initial growth and fermentation is completed to help the yeast clean up. I'm on to kolsch yeast now and will use that for almost everything. I just tried these others out, but kolsch is always my favorite being so lager-like. I have used it before in a stout. Best stout I ever tasted.

Do you use the kolsch yeast for APAs? I've always liked how clean my lagers turned out (only brewed a few) but I lager them traditionally. I assume your not fermenting the kolsch yeast in the mid-50's F right?

Anyone have a reliable APA or IPA recipe they've brewed with this technique? I'd love to get that dialed in as thats the majority of what I keep on tap.

Never used it on either of those styles, but I don't see why not. I have only used it in the mid 60's since it says optimum is 65-69*F.

My APA is simple, pale/crystal 40*L/munich or some other small specialty addition and then my hops. I usually stick to middle of style on my numbers. Best APA to date was just pale/crystal 40 and a triple decoction.

What yeast would you use for your APAs?

Wlp001, cal V, or this dry English ale I have been using.

God, what a great find for a thread.

Something new for me to spend more time on!!!

Hopefully a future project that I can start in the next 3-4 months. Thanks for the info and the million previous replies with good info.

Welcome aboard! Let us all know how it worked for you.

I've been reading through the thread 56 pages and counting. Did anyone ever find a satisfactory way of "dry hopping" with an all Sanke setup. We are opening a nano-brewery and I'm looking at incorporating closed fermentation into our setup. Moving to a second keg under pressure doesn't seam like a big deal to me. I would prefer to have some method for either pellet or whole, sometimes you can only get one or the other.

Has anyone tried using a mesh over the spear in a manner similar to the sure screen for a corny? How has transferring with the in line Randal or hop rocket setup compared? Could that be done cold right from the cold crash into the serving kegs? A 15 gallon Corny with a sure screen as a dedicated dry hopping vessel could be an option for us. I've never tried hop tea but without the scrubbing action of the yeast off gassing maybe it could work for us. Am I worrying about nothing just use pellet and it drops out in the cold crash?

Sorry for the mass of questions but being able to get that dry hopped nature into the finished product is a crucial point for me as I tend to be of the opinion that if it isn't dry hopped it isn't an IPA. Similar to what Wortmonger said in another post when I have a problem the potential solutions keep me up at night dreaming logical dreams and my smartphone gives me way to easy access to research when I should be sleeping for my 345am job.

Thank you for any help and the already accumulated wealth of information in this thread.

I'm still thinking the idea of a pump and a filter housing fitted to keep the hops it contains separate. Maybe even rig two back to back so that you are filtering after dry hopping. This takes it into a whole other realm I have been thinking of called accelerated maturation like the big boys do. Bud uses beechwood for more surface area with the yeast to clean up their beers. Others, I read, use a filtered apparatus containing a huge amount of yeast to push the beer through for fermentation finishing clean up. This idea of the continuous filter would allow more contact area for the yeast as well. As for priming the pump, unless you go peristaltic, we have the pressure already needed in our fermentors to push up and out the beer port to prime the pump, "filter," and return atop the keg via the gas port. Since pressure would equalize in the system rather quickly, via the pressure relief in the housings, and you could always flush the filters with CO2 prior to hook up, it shouldn't have any problems recirculating through the setup. This is all in my head remember, so it is untested. But, I believe it would.

I need some help finishing the optimum hose and ball lock keg connections to this idea.
"Something Like a 15.5 gallon Mr. Beer" THE excellent gift for a new home brewer. In addition to the usual auto syphon, star-san, oxyclean, and Hydrometer, fresh 6 US Gal box of wort and liquid yeast, equipment to pressure ferment, and a 2.5 gal corny keg tailgate kit. one would need some bits to enable Sanke to Corny and Corny to Corny pressurized transfers.

Relief Valve and Pressure Gauge Norgren NRG-V07-200-NNKA and NRG-18-013-203 and This Sanke D Coupler

The tailgate kit comes with one cobra tap and CO2 cartridge with the gas and liquid Corny connections. I want to box this up before Dec 25

All you would need to do is buy some quick-disconnects to add to all your hose ends. Then when you have a sanke connection you want to transfer into a corny connection you just snap the two together and you have it. As for optimum hose length... Depends if you mean serving hose or transfer hose. If you have the right amount for serving ( I estimate the maximum psi of your serving keg / 2 in feet). Example, 12psi serving pressure = 6 feet of 3/16" ID beer tubing. Transfer tubing is up to you. I would buy a bigger CO2 bottle though to transfer with or that setup could get expensive fast.

If you didn't want to buy the quick-disconnects you could always just buy enough connectors for corny and beer nut/ tailpieces for sanke and have dedicated transfer, serving, etc hoses/ tubing. I only use disconnects on my gas bottle now and have dedicated tubing and fittings for the liquid side. Makes getting the bottle out of the kegerator to do a transfer on another beer easy without having to untap and take apart fittings from the keg I'm currently drinking.

All you would need%

Well I finally joined the crowd here. Brewed up eleven gallons yesterday and put in my sanke fermenter. It's got 5 psi on it already.

What kind of contact time does that bleach/vinegar/water mixture need to work?

I'd let it go at least 30 minutes. I sleep much better though when I use Star-San. Damn it's cold now and I have three kegs to clean tonight. As well as washing my last batches cake for freeze storage later on.

Wortmonger,


Thanks for starting this thread and giving us all a new way to ferment. I'm not sure I ever would have tried this otherwise.

Quick question as I was reviewing this thread again. I must have read the entire thing three times over the last two months. It seems everyone has adjusted their method as this has progressed. Is there a negative to just ramping up to full co2 volume early on? It looks like you guys hit 10psi early then ramp up to 30 after a few days. I started at 5 but cranked up to 15 after two days and I was thinking of going higher after I put some hose clamps on my tubing as I noticed at 15 there is a slight leak if I bend my tube when adjusting the SV.

Has anyone figured how pressure relates to the temp? If a recipe calls for 60 degrees then what temp should I hold for a given pressure to have the same effect?

Has anyone tried a lager yet? I may do that after a few batches are under my belt. It's not hard for me to control my fermenting temps as I have a dedicated fermenting chamber.

I don't think it works as well at higher pressures from the start. Yeast thrive at the lower temperatures, and the other good effects of pressure work at these lower pressures as well. After the yeast have done the majority of their job is when I crank it up. This is 2-3 days later in an ale, and 4-7 days later on a lager. To answer your lager question, yes this works great on them.

You need to use software that tells you carbonation volumes per temperature. I use force carbonation volumes on BeerSmith, BrewPal, or iBrewmaster. Temperature and pressure directly correlate, so an increase in temperature will have an increase in pressure.

Wortmonger
You got me started using this method(closed pressure fermentation) a couple years ago.IMHO it is the best of all methods. Don't have enough equipment to use it exclusively, but i pressure ferment what i think will be my best beers. Thanks again. Cheers...

Good to hear sudbuster. I love the technique and don't think I could ever go back I have been doing it so long now. Now if I had a pressure cooker mash tun to do easy decoctions I would be almost 100% under pressure brewing.

I just purchased two 15 gallon kegs from craigslist for $25 each. I am thinking about trying this technique, but I have some questions.

I see you mentioning the bleach/vinegar mix. I use this often, but I always keep it away from Stainless Steel items. You do not notice any damage from the bleach inside kegs?

Also, how do you dry hop using this technique? I would probably add the hops to a corny keg and closed transfer into that. Then transfer to a third keg at serving time. To keep the "closed fermentation" intact. I am on the right page or is there a better method?

The bleach/water/vinegar solution is not enough bleach to hurt the stainless, especially if it is only there long enough to do its job. I always have Star-San around so I use that 99% of the time.

As for dry hopping, what you described is a great way to stay closed and get it done. You mentioned a corny, are you going from ~15 gallons to ~5 gallons then back into a 15 gallon keg?

WortMonger said:

The bleach/water/vinegar solution is not enough bleach to hurt the stainless, especially if it is only there long enough to do its job. I always have Star-San around so I use that 99% of the time.

As for dry hopping, what you described is a great way to stay closed and get it done. You mentioned a corny, are you going from ~15 gallons to ~5 gallons then back into a 15 gallon keg?

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I was thinking more of a 10 gallon batch to two 5 gallons. this way I could experiment with different hops/amounts/etc. I have 6 corny kegs and two sankes. I already do pressurized transfers from time to time. So it would be a matter of getting fittings to connect the ball locks to the sankes.

That sounds like a plan then. If it were me, I'd do 15 gallons of higher gravity ( or as close as you can to 15) then cut it with water into the fermentors. That way you get more beer! Lol, I love brewing 12.5 gallon recipes and ending up with 15 gallons of end product. I don't taste any difference from if it were all brewed together.

Seems hard to believe that this hasn't caught on more in the 5 years since you first posted this. It's also odd that you don't see more spunding valves at homebrew stores. You'd think someone would have something a bit more polished for sale by now.

Well it isn't very accepted as a brewing practice, so we are kinda the red-headed step-children "so to speak." Some think we are trying to improve upon the wheel, when in my opinion I have simply started using one that works better for me. I really like a universal vessel and equipment. Others can stay with their old versions if they want to, but I'm not going back ever!

Thought I would add an update.


I have 4 batches under my belt fermenting this way. I have great luck with Notty and US-05. I also brewed an Octoberfest and currently brewing an Imperial Helles right this minute. All my liquid yeasts are Whitelabs.

I mostly use Cornies and 4.5 gallon batches. I also usually ferment for 1-2 weeks at 10 psi then cold crash for another week before transfer. I have not had a single bad fermentation and all beers have come out super clean. One thing I stopped doing was fining with gelatin. It strips hop flavor in my opinion.

I still get weird looks when I try to describe this method to people, but I know what my results are. The investment is well worth it for the convenience and result.

I've read all 164 pages of this thread and plan on doing some pressurized fermentation's in my brewhemoth. Question I have is what temperature do I want to keep my fermenting wort at in contrast to the yeast manufacturers guidance temperatures? Does everyone just stick with the yeast recommended temps when using the pressurized technique?

Maybe I'm thinking about this too much!

I go with the recommended temps...

V-Twin said:

I've read all 164 pages of this thread and plan on doing some pressurized fermentation's in my brewhemoth. Question I have is what temperature do I want to keep my fermenting wort at in contrast to the yeast manufacturers guidance temperatures? Does everyone just stick with the yeast recommended temps when using the pressurized technique?

Maybe I'm thinking about this too much!

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I still stay in the recommend ranges, though usually a couple degrees warmer. Before doing pressurized ferments I preferred to stay at the cool end of a yeast's guidance temp, and now I shoot towards the middle.

I treat mine the same as normal. I try to pitch all my beers colder than wanted by a few degrees and naturally ramp up to what I set the freezer to ferment at. I'm getting super clean beers that come together almost 100% of the time a week or two out from final transfer. They are drinkable upon transfer, but man do they ever just melt your face off after a week or two later. Wish I had either patience or pipeline... oh well. Even my beer is "paycheck to paycheck. " lol

My first pressurized fermentation is now fermenting (American Wheat). I ended up doing a 5 gallon batch and sending 4.5 into a corny keg (fermcap!). I built a cheap spunding valve using the valve from grainger. It really sucks, but it I was able to get it to 5psi.

I aerated in kettle with pure O2. I pre-pitched the yeast in the keg before I closed transferred in.

I just untapped and I will update with the final results when fermentation is complete.