I need a style for my golden ale recipe

I have been working on beertoad to formulate a new recipe trying to get color, bitterness, alcohol where I want them on paper before I brew.

Beertoad has a list of styles (incomplete I think) and will tell you if your recipe conforms to your selected style. Of course all recipes conform to the escape category of specialty beer. Beertoad has allowable ranges of SRM, OG, FG, ABV, IBU and OG to IBU for each of the styles. Apparently if doesn't care where your grains come from or whether the name of your yeast matches the name of your style.

I have been working on a Golden Ale recipe but I can't quite get the recipe to conform to any style I have tried. The closest style I have found is a Belgium strong ale but that style requires a high ABV and puts limits on OG and FG that are difficult to meet. I think that most Belgium strong ale uses sugar to get those numbers and an extremely high attenuation yeast.

Anyway I want a style that has less alcohol than the Belgium Strong Ales but more than I found in your usual ale styles. I want about 6-7% ABV. Of course the color needs to be golden about a 6 or 7 SRM. Like the Belgium styles I want the sweetness bitterness to be a little on the sweet side.

Please help me escape the feeling that my beer is lost in space, and avoid the dreaded designation of specialty brew. Help me find a style.

Thanks

what kind of yeast are you planning on using? That usually makes a big impact on how I classify beers. You can stretch some of the specs like IBU and gravity, but it's tough to brew Belgian style with an american lager yeast, for example.

Without seeing the recipe, it's hard to make a judgement. However, unless you're brewing this for competition, the style designation is really unimportant.

Brew what you want to drink, style guidelines be damned!

But, like I said, if you want good feedback, we'll need to actually see the recipe. Also, it would help to know what kind of style you were aiming for. You mention Belgian styles several times in your post, so I assume that's what you have in mind. Take a look at Biere de Garde. I suppose it's not strictly Belgian but, based on what you've shared, it could fit.

And, like the person above me said, classification is almost all about yeast. I can brew the same wort but ferment with different yeasts and get two totally different styles. Knowing what kind of yeast you want to use will make all the difference in style classification.

Hi

One of my goals is to integrate my understanding of style with recipe development. I am asking for help because I realized that my notion of style was absolutely inconsistent with the style checker at beertoad. Their style checker does not care about the name of your yeast. It does not care about the kinds of grain. It only cares about the numbers. It uses published attenuation numbers from a selected yeast and OG calculated from the grain list to calculate FG and ABV. Each style has an acceptable range for each of the variables including bitterness and color. If the numbers fall within the predefined ranges then the recipe is marked as conforming to the style otherwise use the special brew style.

My other goal is to find a style for a golden ale. My LHBS only carries WYEAST. I use a lot of American Ale II, Scottish Ale, Northwest Ale, and British ESB. There a lots and lots of golden ale recipes around. I have made several. I used Northwest on the batch bubbling away in my basement. White Labs publishes higher attention and temperature tolerance. In order to get the numbers to work on beertoad for a Belgium strong ale one would have to use White Labs.

Do you know a style that a golden ale would fit. It's not Pale ale. It's not IPA. It's not lager or corn beer or rice beer. I'm a little frustrated. Not only do I want a style home for a simple golden ale but I want a style home for my golden ale which is a little higher alcohol and a little sweeter but less so than the Belgium recipes.

Here is the latest incarnation (5 gal) but I have not tried brewing anything close to this yet:

Golden Honey and Oats ( I know it sounds like a granola bar. I may have to change the name.)

10-14 lbs 2-row
1/2 lb flaked oats
2 lbs malted wheat (pale or white)
1 lb honey malt

1 oz Northern Brewer 60 min
2 oz Hallertau (from my garden) 7 day dry hop

Northwest WYEAST 1332

After what I have learned on beertoad trying to make the Belgium Strong Ales, I'm really tempted to use WYEAST 3522 Belgian Ardennes high attenuation high flocculence and high temp tolerance.

All of the hard work required to develop a recipe gives me motivation to try to find a style. If I manage to come up with a recipe that produces likeable beer then why not enter it in competition. If one is going to compete than conforming to a style, only enhances the value of the labor of beer love.

Please Help me find a Style

Thanks

It's an IPA. I know you want to call it a "Golden Ale", but you've made an IPA. A little low on the IBUs, perhaps, but with the higher-alcohol content and the hop character you'll get from the dry hops, any judge is going to think you tried to make an IPA. I guess you could call it an "Extra Pale Ale", but if you were going to enter a competition with it, it'd probably have to go into the American IPA category. However, with those Hallertau hops, it might get dinged for aroma since the character you'd get from the Hallertau dry-hop would seem out of place in an American IPA. Sorry if that's not the answer you were looking for, but it is what it is.

If you ferment it with the 3522, you'll have made a Belgian IPA, and there isn't a BJCP category specifically for that style. With a Belgian yeast, that same grain/hop bill would probably be submitted under the "Belgian Specialty Ale" (16E) category.

Having said all that, don't let it discourage you. If you like the beer you brewed, call it what you want and drink it. Don't let yourself get so penned in by style unless you want to brew specifically for competition. If you want to tell your friends "This is a golden ale", then it's a golden ale. Having style guidelines is great in that it allows us a way to quickly describe and categorize our product for the consumer, but style's usefulness ends there. And definitely don't let a piece of software tell you what you have or haven't brewed.

If you are shooting for a beer about 6% then I would say that is a pale ale since the IBU's are low. If you are more on the 7% end then I guess it's an IPA but just not hoppy. If you are going with a Belgian strain then you might be getting into Saison Territory too

Hi

I've been calling it beertoad it's actually brewtoad sorry.

I tried to get brewtoad to accept this recipe as an American Pale Ale

Here's whats left of my recipe

8 lbs 2-row
1 lb Malted Wheat White
12 oz honey malt
8 oz oat flakes

1 oz Centennial 60min
2 oz Hallertau

American Ale II

It seems brewtoad doesn't think Americans like much alcohol in their Pale Ales

To get the above recipe to be an American IPA I used 10 lbs of 2-row and an 1.5 oz of centennial.

I got the following through the style checker as a Belgium Golden Strong Ale

12 lb 2-row

Here is the Belgium Strong Ale recipe.

12 lb 2-row
1 lb Malted Wheat (pale or white)
1 lb Honey Malt
8 oz Flaked Oats

1 oz Centennial 60 min

2 oz Hallertau dry hop 7 day

Belgium Strong Ale Yeast from White Labs

I'm liking the last recipe the best.

I know I descended into silliness but if anyone has another idea for a fit please give.

All this hard work has made me very THRISTY.

Thanks

I think the problem is that you are trying to "shove" a recipe/beer into a category. Based on your posts I don't think either recipe sounds like a very good IPA or Belgian Golden Strong. Of course that only matters IF you are planning on entering it into a comp. Otherwise just brew what you like and call it whatever you want.

I don't think I'm trying to shove anything. I think I'm trying to be (in the words of Clint Eastwood) stylish. I know its a big leap for a crazy old hippie to be stylish in any way.

In the world of designing stylish beer I see two camps.

One camp thinks names and pedigrees count. The name of the yeast and the county of origin of grains and hops determine stylishness.

The other camp uses algebra, math and computers to model the taste of beer and the predicted taste of a recipe to determine stylishness.

Does BeerSmith have a style checker? If so which of these two camps is it in.

I think that my little experiment with brewtoad shows that for those in the second camp any recipe can be tweaked into any style simply by adjusting the proportions of the grains and hops.

I think the question Phunhog raises is: Does being stylish in either camp relate to better beer?

I do not have an answer to that.

I think that the only way to try to answer the question involves a great deal of beer drinking.

I'm still looking for a better fit. The Belgium Strong has a little too much alcohol for my taste.

Thanks

I not sure anyone is still reading but I got two more suggestions to check

First Saison

6 lb 2-row
2 lb malted wheat pale or white
1 lb honey malt
8 oz flaked oats

.75 oz centennial 60 min

2 oz hallertau 7day dry hop

Belgium Saison II from White Labs

Next up Biere de Garde

10 lb 2-row
2 lb Malted Wheat (white or pale)
1 lb Honey Malt
.5 lb flaked oats

.75 oz centennial 60 min
2 oz hallertau 7 day dry hop

Belgium Saison II from White Labs

I'm really liking Biere de Garde.

Brewtoad shows ABV at 8% a little higher that I wanted but all the other values are right where I want them.

I'm not sure about the yeast. What country is Biere de Garde from and what yeast can I use. Biere do Garde has a similar profile to the Belgium Strongs and only a very high attenuation yeast will make the numbers work. The Saison yeast makes the numbers work, but is it acceptable to the names determine stylishness camp.

I think I'm almost there

Thanks

centennial hops do not belong in a traditional saison.

You could probably benefit from a little more reading before formulating recipes. Maybe start with a review of the BJCP style guide (http://www.bjcp.org/stylecenter.php), and look around for some recipes of a given style and why the recipe includes what it does.

I think that most of what people have posted thus far is fairly accurate. The main question I think is what do you intend to get out of it? I personally (probably similar to yourself), love to make recipes on various sites or even my phone. I think it is a great way to learn styles and see what makes what and how some styles differ from others. So for me it was initially "hey this is awesome! what can I theoretically make next!" (yes I'm a nerd...). Then I started challenging myself and wanted to make recipes that were strict to the BJCP guidelines (aka use the right malts, hops, obey any Reinheitsgebot laws [german beer purity law]). This began to hone in my ideas of what makes up a particular style. I will be the first to admit I'm no expert, but I'm trying to learn.

So if that's what you are looking to do, BJCP is a great place to start. Technically I dont konw if that would be a sasion because you do not use pilsner as the base malt. Technically it would sort of fall into that category, but again, are you trying to follow style or give your beer a name, because as Juliet says, "what's in a name?".

In thinking about your situation, I would say this, what are you trying to do? Follow a style? Name a beer? Experiment? Put together the next brew? Enter competitions? Learn? Or just put random things together and see what sticks? Any and all of these are good. If you want to put together a good Golden Ale recipe then maybe we could offer some suggestions or substitutions for your recipe, like using pilsner malt, increase boil time to 90 minutes, add in a pound of sugar and change the hops to a noble hop variety like hallertau or something.

Anyway, enjoy making recipes, it's a great way to learn.

Edit: Also brewersfriend.com has a thing that will suggest different styles based on the SRM, alcohol, OG/FG, and IBUs so that's a good way to see what it theroetically could be. But like mentioned before, yeast, hops and malt (even water) can make a huge difference in truely "nailing" a style.

Phunhog said:

I think the problem is that you are trying to "shove" a recipe/beer into a category....just brew what you like and call it whatever you want.

Click to expand...

Phunhog is right in spite of your protest otherwise, irishbill.

The number one point to make first is the one everyone else has made. If you have a good recipe in mind, go ahead and make it-it doesn't matter if it is in any style. (Entering in a beer competition being the exception)

The second thing to mention is the idea you have come up with about beer styles. Just because Brewtoad does not ding the recipe for the type of malt, hops, or yeast does not mean it doesn't matter if you are trying to make that style of beer. I believe the software focuses on what the brewing software is there for-predicting some numbers for you.

So if you are actually trying to brew to style you could also consult the Style Guidelines. I'm not sure there is much to your two camp theory. Some people make an effort to brew to a style and others make an effort to brew whatever they want. Both probably like to have software that can predict numbers for the final beer.

There is nothing wrong with just using the brewing software for the numbers it provides.

I want to thank everybody for there help.

As for my suggestion there are two camps in the world of designing stylish beer, I'm a follower of Baseball. I believe when on defense in baseball, one has to cover all the bases. In the world of stylish beer ideally one must cover both bases. To produce stylish beer one must use both acceptable ingredients and meet the taste profile for the style.

In fooling around with the style checker, I found that one can design a recipe that meets the taste profile of a style without using any of the ingredients from the style guidelines. When one enters competition, I don't think that recipes are required. The judging of the beer is based on the taste and the appearance.

I have also found out that the mere change of a 1/4 oz in bittering hops, can impact taste enough to take the recipe out of one style and possibly into another.

I have also found that one can strictly follow guidelines in ingredients and still end up in the weeds by using the wrong amounts of ingredients.

Do any of the folks in the style is only determined by ingredient pedigrees, use software to aid their design? I would especially like to hear from anyone who has experience with Beersmith.

I'm going to work on a golden ale recipe that conforms to the Biere de Garde style both in ingredients and in taste profile.

Thanks for your help

I use Beersmith and really like it. Here is what I have learned about recipe formulation and brewing a specific style of beer. If you really want to nail down the style look at a dozen award winning recipes for that style. In most cases they will have many more similarities (yeast, hops, specialty grains, etc) than differences. In other words if you want to brew a Biere de Garde look at some award winning recipes and go from there. There is a lot more that goes into a recipe than just "hitting the numbers".

Two things:

First: "The other camp uses algebra, math and computers to model the taste of beer and the predicted taste of a recipe to determine stylishness."

I don't know any serious brewer who thinks this way. I can make two beers with the exact same numbers that are completely different beers. Numbers are almost meaningless when it comes to style. The BJCP guidelines say that the American IPA category OG range is from 1.056-1.075. I could submit a beer in that category with an OG of 1.080 and still do very well. The judge will never know what the OG was unless I told him. The numbers you get from software are only there to give you an idea of what your ingredients will turn out in terms of alcohol, bitterness, and color. It tells you nothing of what your beer will taste like. The numbers you get from your own measurements are only there to tell you how you did based on the target you got during your recipe formulation.

Second: "In fooling around with the style checker, I found that one can design a recipe that meets the taste profile of a style without using any of the ingredients from the style guidelines."

This is absolutely untrue. You can match the numbers of your goal style without using any of the ingredients suggested in the style guidelines, but you can't brew a German pils with American 2-row, Cascade hops and Wyeast 1056 regardless of what your numbers say.

You're obviously not going to let this go, but you're letting yourself get way too hung up on the style aspect of brewing without any actual information about the styles you're trying to brew. You're doing it backwards; to brew to style, you have to start with the style, then formulate the recipe. It's going to be much more difficult if you make up a recipe and try to force it into a style because of the color and OG.

If you want to brew to style, go listen to the old Jamil Show podcasts and buy "Brewing Classic Styles". If, however, you want to brew your Golden Ale with 2-row malt and German hops, then do it. But don't expect it to taste like a Belgian Golden Strong just because you matched up some numbers in a program. My suggestion to you is, if you can't let the "style" problem go, learn some more about brewing from some books or this forum.