Beer gas set up

I'm getting ready to hook up my stout faucet and I'm collecting parts so everything is ready to go. The plan is to carbonate my stout keg using beer gas. I've been doing alot of reading and it seems the best way to do it is to hook up a stainless steel air stone inside my keg. So the question is what micron stone would work best? A 2 micron or a 5 micron. I know co2 will pass through both but I'm not sure about nitrogen.

You're better off carbonating with straight CO2, then dispensing with beer gas.

Either stone will pass both gases. The molecules are around 300-400 picometers, which is about a million times smaller than the pores in the stones.

The smaller the pores in the stones the smaller the bulbbles will be and the easier it will dissolve into the beer.

Why would I be better off carbing with co2? I've read tha nitrogen dose not dissolve well in beer, hence the air stone

You aren't trying to get nitrogen to dissolve into the beer. Read this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/what-about-guinness-133649/

I've got most of the setup...I've been dispensing Guinness (not homebrewed)...with the setup. My next homebrew stout...I'm going to "nitrogenate" with beer mix.

Here's what I'm planning...

I'll put a stone on the short dip tube...as close as I can get it.

I'll fill the tank with beer...about 7/8ths the way...staying clear of the stone.

Pressurize the tank...bleed the tank a couple of time...just to clear off the head space of any oxygen. Pressurize just enough to ensure a seal.

Chill the tank

Flip the tank inverted...and slowly bring the gas pressure up to 30 psi...when the gas stops flowing...flip it upright again.

Wait 2 hrs

Vent...but leave enough pressure to remain sealed.

Flip inverted...slowly bring pressure up to 30 psi...when gas flow stops...right the tank again.

Wait 2 hrs.

Dispense through stout faucet...

Repeat the bubbling nitrogen-carbon dioxide blend through the stone...and waiting 2 hrs...as necessary to get the smooth, creamy, head...the low carbonated flavor, and cascading effect that I'm looking for. Then just leave it attached at 30 psi.

You'll find that the Stout Faucet holds a bit a liquid above the restictor plate...which drips out over time. Perfect breeding ground for mold to form. So after each use...you'll have to unscrew the spout...and rinse with clear water...let dry a bit...and replace, to prevent a mold plug from forming around the flow straightener.

If you aren't pouring Black & Tans...go with whatever. But I think the nitrogenation hassle you go through with the stone will pay dividends when you pour a black and tan. I don't have a mass spec to test the liquid...but I would imagine some, however miniscule amt. of N2 goes into solution...would certainly help keeping the density different than the lager or ale that you're pouring over.

Once again, YOU ARE NOT NITROGENATING THE BEER! Even with beer gas, it's the CO2 that's going into solution. Using a stone, inverting the tank, or any other "trick" just helps to speed the process of force carbonation. Nitrogen isn't even at play for a black and tan (it's simply a matter of putting the beverage with the lowest FG on top). To illustrate that point, here's a "snakebite" I just poured with apfelwein over Guinness.

To get back to the original point, you are better off simply force carbonating to a low level with pure CO2 because it's faster, cheaper, and more efficient. Once you have achieved the desired level of carbonation, use beer gas to serve.

Thanks for the info Yuri I'll give it a shot your way. One more Q. When I reach the carbonation level that I want do I purge the co2 in the head space and replace it with beer gas?

Remember, the primary reason for the nitrogen in beer gas is so that you can push the beer at a much higher pressure through the restrictor disc in the faucet without overcarbing the beer. The nitrogen, as has been mentioned, doesn't dissolve in the beer.

Carbing with the beer gas can be hard because most of the gas that you pump into the keg doesn't go into solution at all, but rather fills the head space preventing any more gas from entering the keg. Sure, you can keep venting the head space, but that just wastes your beer gas, which is generally more expensive than straight co2.

Okay...Okay...

I get it already. Nitrogenation is just a waste of time for the homebrewer to attempt. We just push low carbonated beer through a diffuser faucet...

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What's the harm in trying to figure out the science of Nitrogenation?

If it's all for not...then why on earth would a brewery buy this type of equipment?

http://www.liqui-cel.com/uploads/documents/Non-dispersive diffusion for nitrogenation Beer.pdf

I agree with Yuri 99.9%...but it doesn't keep me from inquiring about the other 00.1% of the equation.

I found this article that seems to support that nitrogenation actually does have an effect in creating stable foam. However, I firmly believe that it is bunk. I use 100% CO2 to force carbonate, then Argon to push beer through my stout faucet. I get VERY stable foam that behaves exactly like a so-called "nitrogenated" beer. That empirical evidence flies in the face of both the Mr. Wizard article AND the Liqui-Cel diffusion article (Argon makes up less than 1% of the gas in the atmosphere). I DO think that Mansfield Brewery benefits from that equipment, but not due to its ability to dissolve nitrogen, but rather due to the very precise control of dissolved gas and carbonation levels.

If I ever have the opportunity, I will test these concepts under controlled and measurable conditions. Until then, I will continue to use the techniques that have worked for me and suggest that others do the same.

By the way, even the pros push their "nitrogenated" beer through diffuser plates...

The Liqui-Cel article did mention that it would take around 132 psi to enable Nitrogen to disolve into beer at any appreciable rate. Obviously, THAT wouldn't be a safe thing to try using a cornelius keg.

What I take away from that is... There will be NO appreciable disolution in beer at 30psi.

Using a sintered stone, while more effective than not using one, will still result in unsatisfactory "nitrogenation" for the homebrewer.

Nitrogen obviously CAN be disolved in liquids. I'm sure it helps if the liquid has proteins in it to bond with (like blood). If Nitrogen were not capable of being disolved into liquids...then scuba divers would be much much happier. They wouldn't get narc'ed from it...or worry about it coming out of solution in their blood and tissues as they ascend.

I don't know how to set up a test either. If you had a mass spectrometer at your disposal...you could run a sample of the same batch of beer kegged two different ways...sampled, hopefully without agitating the sample and allowing the gasses to come out of solution. I say the same batch because the normal proteins in beer will register Nitrogen... Or perhaps a gas analyzer...by putting a sample of beer in a plastic bottle...squeezing the bottle to remove all the air in the head space...then shaking the bottle to release the disolved gasses...and then sampling that gas. Just don't know anyone with that kind of equipment.


As you said...you get perfect foam without "Nitrogenation"... The stabilty of the head is attributable to other factors such as protiens, lipids and salts in the beer.. Supposedly, the "size" of the bubbles are smaller with "Nitrogentated" beers...but that could be directly attributable to using a restrictor plate to mechanically create smaller bubbles much like a carbonation stone does...and have extremely little to do with Nitrogen.

I never though about using Argon... I've got a big tank of that on my Tig welder. I think I pay about the same for 220 cuft of that as I do 55 cuft of "Beer Gas"... Sounds like an economical solution for dispensing.

Do you find that the beer starts to have poor head development toward the end of the keg...when the already low volume of disolved CO2 would come out of solution to equalize the partial pressure in the head space of Argon? Or do you just inject more CO2 from time to time?

And yes...I realize that the pros use the same diffuser plate faucets.

Actually, I was surprised to find that there was no appreciable change in the beer's carbonation and mouthfeel from start to finish (approx. 3 weeks to finish a keg). I have never had to add more CO2.

Yuri, so you are using 100% argon to serve? What pressure and line length are you using?

I use 100% Ar for my stout faucet. Line length is 9'. Pressure is 35 psi.

I use 100% CO2 for my other faucet. Same line length. 8-12 psi (style dependent).

Yuri, thanks. Yes I was talking about for the stout faucet, but I appreciate you being specific.

Yuri_Rage said:

Actually, I was surprised to find that there was no appreciable change in the beer's carbonation and mouthfeel from start to finish (approx. 3 weeks to finish a keg). I have never had to add more CO2.

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this actually makes perfect sense. That 35 PSI of argon is keeping every single molecule of co2 dissolved in solution. And 35 in nowhere near enough pressure to dissolve any of the argon.

Even if you vent the keg the only gas that will come out of the valve will be argon.

Another benefit of using co2 only to initially carb up the beer is that it happens really fast. It takes almost no time to get 1.5 - 1.7 vols dissolved into cold beer. If you carb with beer gas it will take 4 times as long because there is only 1/4 the co2 in the gas in the keg.

Just a quick clarification. If I carb with co2 then switch to straight nitrogen I won't have to recarb as long as I maintain a high nitro pressure?

dontman said:

Even if you vent the keg the only gas that will come out of the valve will be argon.

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That's not going to happen...

The same way the CO2 went into the beer...it's going to come out of the beer.

You might alter the rate...but one thing is for certain --- if the concentration of CO2 in the beer is higher than the concentration of CO2 in the head space...the CO2 will eventually migrate to reach equilibrium. It's got nothing to do with the Argon.

If you take a full keg of beer...and displace 1/2 of it with ARgon...and let it sit for a while. You'll have CO2 exit the beer and mingle with the ARgon in the headspace.

If this were not the case...then every tank of Beer Mix (75%N2-25%CO2) would dispense Pure N2 until the pressure is low enough for the liquid CO2 in the bottom of the tank to turn into a gas.

And as far as carbonating... 1 bar of 100% CO2 will not carbonate a liquid any faster than 4 bars of 25% CO2. It's just got to do with partial pressures.

At least that's what I've been told... any Chemical Engineers out there?

Any reason you couldn't naturally carbonate then serve with beer gas or argon?

Nope. Just prime your beer in order to achieve about 1.0 volume of CO2.

Yuri, What kind of regulator are you using for Argon? Everything that I am seeing has a flow meter or flow gauge no real way to adjust pressure. Would a Nitrogen regulator fit a Argon tank?

hammer one said:

Would a Nitrogen regulator fit a Argon tank?

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CGA580...N, HE, AR

same, same

You could also use a CO2 regulator with a tank adapter....

http://www.beveragefactory.com/draf...ank/co2_regulator_nitrogen_tank_adapter.shtml

Thanks Chuggs. What do you think about Argon? Have you tried it?

hammer one said:

Thanks Chuggs. What do you think about Argon? Have you tried it?

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Ya know...the thought had never even crossed my mind. I think Yuri is the pioneer on Argon for beer use. It's about 4 times as soluble in water as Nitrogen...but it's still not very soluble. I think it's a fine choice. I'd venture a guess that you'd be able to push with pure Nitrogen cheaper than you could pure Argon...but if you have it on hand already for your Tig Aparatus...then why not? On the other hand...if you have dry Nitrogen sitting around because you're in the aviation industry or refrigeration industry...then I'd use that. I hadn't really thought about it much before I went out and bought a tank...and had it filled with "Beer Mix".

I've got a tank of Argon sitting about 15 yards away from my kegerator. I've got an oxy-acetylene rig out there in the garage too...and it never dawned on me to make an adapter for my oxygen tank for oxygenating wort either.

It's amazing how my mind segments stuff...that's for brewing...that's for welding. But...I guess I need to look around a bit more.

I just ordered a nitrogen regulator from Micro Matic so it all comes down to price. Argon is half the price of beer gas, I'll have to check on Nitrogen.

I use an Ar/He/N regulator with a pressure gauge attached where a flow meter used to reside.

I have also wanted to get a beer gas or nitrogen set up going for a few stouts I am planning on making this fall. I was hoping to achieve a nice creamy head without having to purchase and switch out to a stout faucet. Has anyone had any luck achieving this with a normal faucet? Also if the gas used plays no role in the head and is all about the low carb level and restrictor how is this achieved in the Guinness and Murphy's capsule cans?

The widgets act as an accumulator...When you pop the top...a mixture of beer gas and some stout come shooting out of a small hole. It's like taking a syringe and squirting beer into your Guinness with force. This causes the gases to come out of solution and form a head.

Guinness also came out with the "surger"... It's Guinness in a can that has the same properties as their kegged brew. You pour a glass of this "Guinness Surge" and place it on a surge device. A little bit of water goes on the surge device before you place the glass on it. When you hit the button the device ultrasonically aggitates the beer in the glass causing the gasses to come out of solution. If you wanted the creamy head without the stout faucet...I'd look for a surge device on eBay. You could keep your stout hooked to a regular beer faucet at low carbonation...say 5 psi. Dispense it slowly into the glass without making a head form. Place it on the surge device...and BOOM...creamy head stout!

Why are the bubbles smaller in the head of guinness, etc?

I'm guessing that it's because in a standard pint, the bubbles grow on nucleation sites on the glass, and keep growing until they can achieve enough buoyancy to separate from that site. Those bubbles will be the smallest in the head - larger ones formed by coalescence. In a diffuser plate, there must be nucleation points such that they are stripped off by the flow of beer, and the bubbles produced are smaller than the ones produced by nucleating on the glass. Alternatively, it is a process that happens in solution in the region of the plate.... thoughts?

I'm attempting my first nitro beer and I'm not very happy with the results so far.

Here's the scenario. I've got a 5 gallon corny with a homebrewed mocha stout. After reading this thread, I tried force carbonation with C02 to a low carbonation level, then hooked up the nitro to pour through a nitro faucet. It pours as pure foamy head, with minimal cascade action. If I'm patient enough, 10 mins later the head settles but the head is not creamy, rather a patchy looking layer of head leather. The kegerator is set with a Johnson controller at 40 degrees, and the serving line is 6 feet. I've tried serving pressures from 40 PSI all the way to 10, with similar results. Any ideas?

Here's some pictures of my setup. Any advise is greatly appreciated!

robshady said:

I'm attempting my first nitro beer and I'm not very happy with the results so far.

Here's the scenario. I've got a 5 gallon corny with a homebrewed mocha stout. After reading this thread, I tried force carbonation with C02 to a low carbonation level, then hooked up the nitro to pour through a nitro faucet. It pours as pure foamy head, with minimal cascade action. If I'm patient enough, 10 mins later the head settles but the head is not creamy, rather a patchy looking layer of head leather. The kegerator is set with a Johnson controller at 40 degrees, and the serving line is 6 feet. I've tried serving pressures from 40 PSI all the way to 10, with similar results. Any ideas?

Here's some pictures of my setup. Any advise is greatly appreciated!

Click to expand...

I don't know how long you've had your product on tap.

One thing you might check is the stout faucet. They tend to hold enough liquid over time that mold grows inside. I've found mold chunks the size of english peas in there. This could cause a flow problem. I realize it's a longshot. Patchy head makes me wonder if there's some left over cleaner in your keg...beer lines...glass...

If all that fails...you might add some oats to your next stout brew...that seems to help build good head retention. You may already have plenty of oats in your recipe...so that might not help either.

Hope it gets resolved. A nice nitro poured stout is certainly a good thing!

One more idea...

You can buy a Keg of Guinness...and hook it up to your gas and faucet. If it too has a problem --- then you've narrowed it down to your gas and faucet. If it pours nicely --- then you've narrowed it down to your keg or beer.

The nice thing is you'll have 50L of pure heaven to enjoy as a result

I just wished that the store didn't charge $160 for the 50L of pure heaven.

I actually wished they had 1/4 bbl kegs of it. I can't finish an entire 50L of Guinness, being I'm the only one in my household that revers it, in quick enough fashion that it won't start going bad.

Thanks for the advice, Chuggs. I recleaned and thoroughly rinsed my beer lines, disassembled and cleaned the nitro faucet (no mold), just to be sure, but there was no improvement. I now believe firmly that I overcarbonated the stout before serving on nitro. I read earlier in this thread that 1.0 volume was a good target for the "low carbonation" level previously mentioned. Sound good to you? I definitely overshot that, closer to 1.8 volumes.

Also, not sure if there's a thread on this already, but what other beer styles are folks serving on nitro? I've got a cream ale in secondary that I think would be a nice match for nitro, and would love to hear other options. Let's be honest, the nitro setup is a spendy add-on. Other than stouts, what else can take advantage of with this? I had the IPA at Redhook on Nitro once and loved it!

OK, taking a step back, how do I carbonate to a level of 1.0 volumes? Is the natural carbonation in the keg not already at or exceeding this level? If I read the carbonation chart correctly, there is no listing for 1.0 volumes. If I use BeerAlchemy to tell me what level of pressure to use, it reverts to 0. No force carb pressure levels, and no amount of priming sugar for natural carbonation is required. So why force carb nitro served beers at all? Why not go straight from secondary to the keg to the nitro? And won't the C02 in the beergas slowly carbonate the beer to a higher level? Ugh. I need some answers here

At 40 degrees, you will quickly overcarbonate beyond 1 volume. At 70 degrees, it takes 4.6 psi to achieve 1 volume. I force carbonate at room temperature to ensure that I don't overcarbonate my beer.

Thanks Yuri. That answers part of the question. I guess what I'm looking for is a comprehensive carbing process for serving with beergas.

Step 1: Force carb with C02 or Beergas at X Pressure at X temperature to achieve X volumes of carbonation (the aforementioned "low level") for X duration of time

Step 2: Serve with beergas (75/25 mix) through a stout faucet at X pressure

I've heard so many different process recommendations, and many of them contradict one another. Who has a process that just works every time? I don't have a carb stone, my C02 tank is in the kegerator and I carbonate everything at 40 degrees. It's never been an issue with C02 beers, and would be a headache to change my process. I don't particularly care if I use the more expensive beergas to carb the beer, if that makes things easier. Where's the "simple stupid" method?

Thanks again for your feedback!

robshady,
I'm about to start putting gas and dispense parts together for my newest kegorator, and am considering doing this as well. I can help you with your first step, but not the second. For the first, don't carb with beergas or anything but regular CO2.

I keep a spare CO2 tank (actually I have 3 total) so I never run out (have a leak the night before a party and you will do the same. driving 2 hours to get CO2 early in the morning before your friends show up for your homebrew party with no dispensing is no fun.). I have a spare regulator and it runs to a tube with a cornie fitting on it, so I can hook one of them up and carb no problem. Also, 4.6 pounds at 70F is easy. Put the beer in the keg. Attach a gas line from your kegorator, hang the line out over the top and close the lid on it. It'll leak some cold air, but no biggie. You attach to the keg with the low pressure and shake the heck out of the keg. Let it rest 10 minutes, then do it again. Repeat a few times and in an hour you are done. Hook up to beergas, cool, and dispense.

My QUESTIONS:
1) is buying "nitro" the same as buying "beergas"? Is there any reason to buy one or the other?
2) what serving pressure and temp on beergas? What about nitrogen (if different)?