2011 Saison

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Mapleroots

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
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Location
Crown Point Indiana
Grain Bill
20 lb. Marris otter (Belgian)
2 lb. Rye malt
1 lb. Wheat
1 lb. Belgian Biscuit
Hop Schedule
1 oz. Saaz 60 min
1 oz. Mt. Hood 30 min
1 oz. Saaz 10 min.
1oz. Mt. Hood 10 min.
Star anise, and grains of paradise-
Primary- 2 weeks White labs Belgian Ale (WLP 550)
Secondary 1 lb. honey; 1 month
Planning on brewing this one at the end of this week and would love some feedback on the overall recipe.
 
It looks like a great recipe, but it isn't really a saison without a saison yeast.

Also, if you do go with a saison yeast (I recommend either 3711 or WLP568) you won't need the grains of paradise.
 
I,m going to boil this brew down to 6 gal. and pitch the Belgian yeast I read this Yeast will work with the style. I'm going to ferment at warm temps: 85-90*f for 2 weeks primary, and around 75*f in secondary.
Yeah maybe i will drop the grains of paradise, I'm not sure of the peppery notes this yeast is going to leave?
 
Switch out your base grain for pilsner. That MO is going to be a little too nutty/bready. Pilsner is great in that it lends an impression of sweetness while still being quite clean. For the same reason I would completely drop the biscuit malt.

I would kill both of the spices. I actually had a saison once with star anise, it was overwhelming and killed the subtleness and yeast profile of the saison.

And as stated before.... get a saison yeast. I can't stress that enough. The Wyeast 3711 is my personal favorite. While the Belgian Yeast will give you some of the flavors your looking for... you're not going to get exactly what you want.

The 550 is fruity and spicy. But the 3711 is fruity and spicy in a different way, it has hints of clove, lemon peel and orange peel.

In a beer that is all about showcasing yeast profile, it's best to have the right one. And to have a grain bill that's not going to mask the flavors too much. That's the same reason for not using those spices.
 
My votes are with Homebrewtastic. OM swapped for Pilsner and get yourself some saison yeast.

The anise is a personal touch, so I can't say much, but be careful with it. It is potent.

If you are absolutely dead set on using the 550, keep the grains of paradise. It will help mimic a saison but I agree it won't be what you wanted.

This is going to give you about 1.106 OG assuming 70% efficiency.

It is my strong recommendation that you do not ferment the entire primary at 85-90. Start at 68-70 and let it ferment for atleast 4 days around that temp and then you can start boosting it up to 80+. The Saison yeast are designed to work well under the higher temps. the belgian ale yeast may not work under those conditions as well as the saison. (too fruity, sour apple, butterscotch, etc.).

I would also say, trade out more of your grain for simple sugars. You are going to want to get this somewhat dry, but also keep enough sweetness to hide the high alcohol. So, it will be a balancing act. I would say atleast 1.5lbs of simple sugars (1.5honey, or 1lb honey .5lb sucrose), but more likely 2lbs will work as it will assist in:
a) getting your brew down to a reasonable FG
b) help you get a better efficiency from your mash by lowering the amount of grain used.

These are just my suggestions. Overall the recipe looks really good. But I don't think the final result would have been a saison.
 
Mapleroots said:
I,m going to boil this brew down to 6 gal.

Wow. If you get this as dry as a saison should be you are going to have one hell of a big beer. Why the long boil and why such a big grain bill? You can get a tasty 6%ABV saison without even going over 1.050. If this really is your plan, perhaps the high gravity, alcohol tolerant Belgian strain is the better choice.
 
If this only gets down to 1.020 FG, that's still going to put you at right around 12%abv and fairly sweet. Not exactly a refreshing summer beer. This strikes me more as an underhopped barleywine with a Belgian yeast and some spices. If that's what you're going for, then brew on and enjoy it. If you're wanting this to be like any other saison you've had, I don't think this recipe will get you there.

I've also never heard of Belgian Maris Otter, and I'd be surprised if it exists. If you want anything saison-like, I'd stick with a pilsner malt, as suggested above. Maris Otter does make for a superb barleywine base, though (see point above).
 
your right this is a British origin grain. The reason I'm doing such a big beer out of this style is that i'm experimenting with mashing 12lb. grain twice in my 10 gal. mashing tun. and boiling down in my 8 gal. brew kettle. All my beers for a while will be done with this method, and I will be changing the yeasts, grains and hops, for different styles. I'm thinking about dropping the Belgian biscuit and replacing with another lb. rye? As for the base, I've got 55 lb. Marris Otter, and this beer needs to get done. Planning on using 2 star anise at 10 min. boil, so as not to get to overpowering with this flavor. As for the ABV. I love my sarongs, and I've tried some saison's with this high % that didn't compromise there overall style and flavor for the bigger grain bill. I think the honey should dry it out to what I want out of this beer, And I'f I have to up the hops to balance it out, I'm willing to do that. I'm just looking for a beer that is tasty along the lines of a Saison. Maybe in between A Barleywine and Saison?
 
your right this is a British origin grain. The reason I'm doing such a big beer out of this style is that i'm experimenting with mashing 12lb. grain twice in my 10 gal. mashing tun. and boiling down in my 8 gal. brew kettle. All my beers for a while will be done with this method, and I will be changing the yeasts, grains and hops, for different styles. I'm thinking about dropping the Belgian biscuit and replacing with another lb. rye? As for the base, I've got 55 lb. Marris Otter, and this beer needs to get done. Planning on using 2 star anise at 10 min. boil, so as not to get to overpowering with this flavor. As for the ABV. I love my sarongs, and I've tried some saison's with this high % that didn't compromise there overall style and flavor for the bigger grain bill. I think the honey should dry it out to what I want out of this beer, And I'f I have to up the hops to balance it out, I'm willing to do that. I'm just looking for a beer that is tasty along the lines of a Saison. Maybe in between A Barleywine and Saison?


You'd be surprised at how much that little bit of star anise will cover up your beer. Saisons don't need spices.
 
Homebrewtastic said:
You'd be surprised at how much that little bit of star anise will cover up your beer. Saisons don't need spices.

But he's not using a saison yeast, so the spice might help get him closer to that without using the saison yeast. While it's not going to be a saison, it'll probably be a good big beer after some aging. The Maris otter will give it more body and flavor than the typical pilsner malts. If I made this, I'd bulk age it in a secondary and taste it after several months and consider adding brett to it if it didn't get dry enough.
 
Doesn't Fantome use spices? Plus isn't Fantome highly regarded as a saison? I'm just getting at the gospel people preach on this site and other sites isn't necessarily the rule. The key with spices and the like is to keep them very restrained. I learned that using chamomile in a wit. I thought I used just a bit less than enough and it ended up being way more than enough at least for my tastes. A good way to test is to make a spice tea then take a similar profile beer you're trying to create and add some spice tea. Make sure you have a way to measure and then extrapolate the data to your full batch.

The way I see it if the guy wants to go the spice path and not use a stereotypical saison yeast then let him. While I will agree a lot of what is attributed to the saison style is the yeast, but in the past who knows what types of yeast they used. These were farmhouse beers and I bet they used whatever yeast was available if they didn't use spontaneous fermentation. So with that said any belgian yeast is probably fair game if you take the history of the beer into account. If he doesn't like the way it comes out he can do it again differently. That's the beauty of doing 5-10g batches. It's not a huge $$ loss if we make a mistake.
 
Doesn't Fantome use spices? Plus isn't Fantome highly regarded as a saison? I'm just getting at the gospel people preach on this site and other sites isn't necessarily the rule. The key with spices and the like is to keep them very restrained. I learned that using chamomile in a wit. I thought I used just a bit less than enough and it ended up being way more than enough at least for my tastes. A good way to test is to make a spice tea then take a similar profile beer you're trying to create and add some spice tea. Make sure you have a way to measure and then extrapolate the data to your full batch.

The way I see it if the guy wants to go the spice path and not use a stereotypical saison yeast then let him. While I will agree a lot of what is attributed to the saison style is the yeast, but in the past who knows what types of yeast they used. These were farmhouse beers and I bet they used whatever yeast was available if they didn't use spontaneous fermentation. So with that said any belgian yeast is probably fair game if you take the history of the beer into account. If he doesn't like the way it comes out he can do it again differently. That's the beauty of doing 5-10g batches. It's not a huge $$ loss if we make a mistake.

Obviously he can make whatever the hell he wants. That's the best part about homebrewing.

I just see A LOT of threads that say "I want to make my first saison and here's my recipe....". They expect it to taste like your typical saison (hennepin, dupont etc....) but their recipe isn't even close.

Then they don't follow the obvious advice given to them and end up being unhappy. And then say "Hey. Why didn't my beer end up tasting like a saison?"

I'm not saying this guy is going to make a bad beer with the huge O.G. and all of the spices. It actually sounds like a great Belgian specialty ale. But a saison... it is not.
 
Thanks for all the great responses, and I will take all of the advice for this brew into account, not just for this brew, but for future as well. With that said maybe I was a little quick to call this one a Saison. What I am reaching for is a quality Belgian, that is done in the same fermenting tradition as a Saison. Though this one will not be drank in the same sense as the first of it's origins(due to the high ABV.). The reason behind this is to enjoy a tasty brew by August. When days are long and hot, and I'm looking to put 2-3 of these brews back and call it a night(refresh and relax). As for the recipe, I decided I'm going to drop the Anise and use it for a porter, or Barleywine brewed for this winter, I got a little ahead myself. I still feel strong about the grains of paradise and the yeast will stay the same.
Has anyone done a Saison with this yeast, I would like some word on someone who has experience with this yeast. White Labs Posts that this can be used in Saisons?
AS for bulk aging in secondary, I definitely was planning on this. And in Order to drink by August, the longest I can go is 2 months. What would be some other sugestions?
 
White Labs Posts that this can be used in Saisons?

The author of "Farmhouse Ales" notes the same, but he does state that it will not give the same type of character as the Dupont strain, which many people seem to equate with saisons. His recommended recipes seem to call for spices much more often when using this yeast than with a "saison specific" yeast. I'm sure this yeast will make a fine beer, just don't expect it to be quite as spicy and funky as the 3724, or even 3711, strain. It's also not quite as attenuative, so some sugars or a lower mash temp (145 or so) may be in order, as you tweak the recipe.
 
yeah just trying to dial these recipes in before this weekend, When i'll also be brewing A German bock, with same base malt with German Specialty malts, should be interesting fermenting these side by side. Fermenting at that temp is about what I had in mind so i'll try and keep it around 147-145*f. Thanks again, I think this recipe is a go!
 
Thanks for all the great responses, and I will take all of the advice for this brew into account, not just for this brew, but for future as well. With that said maybe I was a little quick to call this one a Saison. What I am reaching for is a quality Belgian, that is done in the same fermenting tradition as a Saison. Though this one will not be drank in the same sense as the first of it's origins(due to the high ABV.). The reason behind this is to enjoy a tasty brew by August. When days are long and hot, and I'm looking to put 2-3 of these brews back and call it a night(refresh and relax). As for the recipe, I decided I'm going to drop the Anise and use it for a porter, or Barleywine brewed for this winter, I got a little ahead myself. I still feel strong about the grains of paradise and the yeast will stay the same.
Has anyone done a Saison with this yeast, I would like some word on someone who has experience with this yeast. White Labs Posts that this can be used in Saisons?
AS for bulk aging in secondary, I definitely was planning on this. And in Order to drink by August, the longest I can go is 2 months. What would be some other sugestions?

Sounds great. As before it sounds like you have the makings of a great belgian specialty ale. I think the grains of paradise will be good in your ale, especially with all of the bready character you'll be getting from your grains.

If you want to be able to drink by August, cut down your grain bill. Something this big would need a minimum six months of aging to mellow. That's just my opinion.
 
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