Sam Adams Noble Pils clone

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jgourd

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New to coming up with my own recipes. Interested to start exploring.

The SA web site mentions the use of all 5 noble hops (hallertauer hersbrucker, hallertauer mittelfrueh, saaz, spalter, and tettnang). I'm just not sure how to layer them for use in bittering, flavor and aroma. But here's my first hack at a recipe:

Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 3.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 42.7 IBU
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

9.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
1.00 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] (60 min)
0.75 oz Spalter [4.50 %] (60 min)
1.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (15 min)
1.00 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] (15 min)
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (5 min)
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (0 min)
1 Pkgs Czech Budejovice Lager (White Labs #WLP802)

What do you think?
 
I also thought about more "layering" and came up with this alternative:

Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 3.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 42.1 IBU
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

9.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (60 min)
0.25 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] (60 min)
0.25 oz Spalter [4.50 %] (60 min)
0.25 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (60 min)
0.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] (60 min)
0.50 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (15 min)
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (15 min)
0.50 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] (15 min)
0.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] (15 min)
0.50 oz Spalter [4.50 %] (15 min)
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (0 min)
1 Pkgs Czech Budejovice Lager (White Labs #WLP802)

Thoughts?
 
The ABV for the SA Noble Pils is on the web site at 5.2%. The estimated ABV for the two recipes above is 5.16%.
 
jgourd said:
New to coming up with my own recipes. Interested to start exploring.

The SA web site mentions the use of all 5 noble hops (hallertauer hersbrucker, hallertauer mittelfrueh, saaz, spalter, and tettnang). I'm just not sure how to layer them for use in bittering, flavor and aroma. But here's my first hack at a recipe:

Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 3.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 42.7 IBU
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

9.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
1.00 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] (60 min)
0.75 oz Spalter [4.50 %] (60 min)
1.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (15 min)
1.00 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] (15 min)
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (5 min)
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (0 min)
1 Pkgs Czech Budejovice Lager (White Labs #WLP802)

What do you think?
Click to expand...

I think you're on the right track. After having tasted the beer a few times I have to think they blend the hops. To me it has sort of a generic Continental hops presence which was a bit of a disappointment. Sam also uses a blend of domestic 2-row along with some Czech pils malt. Again this was a disappointment to me and I like your grist bill a lot more. My guess is you are a little high on the IBUs, the Sam seemed to me to be more like 35/36. :mug:
 
let us know how this turns out. I recieved pilsen(55lbs) instead of two row from our bulk buy so I am using it for an excuse to brew something similiar.
 
BigEd said:
I think you're on the right track. After having tasted the beer a few times I have to think they blend the hops. To me it has sort of a generic Continental hops presence which was a bit of a disappointment. Sam also uses a blend of domestic 2-row along with some Czech pils malt. Again this was a disappointment to me and I like your grist bill a lot more. My guess is you are a little high on the IBUs, the Sam seemed to me to be more like 35/36. :mug:
Click to expand...

Yeah, I decided not to blend the malts and opted just to go with the pils malt. I tend to prefer bitter beers, and I don't mind the higher IBUs here. But I could reduce the 1 oz. of Tettnang@60 to 0.75 oz. for an IBU of 38.9.
 
So I spoke to a guy at Sam Adams this morning after he read my email asking for some info on this beer so that I could brew it myself throughout the year. Here's what he had to say about this brew:

1. The Noble Pils is 35 IBUs.

2. They krausen theirs as opposed to using carapils, and that's how they get the mouthfeel and head. He figured making an extra bit of wort and taking off about 1/6th of it and storing in fridge or freezer. Same for the yeast starter (1/6 in the fridge). This mixture (wort+yeast) will be added in the secondary once it's actively fermenting and will help clean up diacetyl. Now they don't use this technique to carbonate their beer, but it could be used to do so. In other words, I could lager and then add this actively fermenting yeast in before bottling (need to calculate how much). It would then carbonate without needing priming sugar or DME.

3. He suggested to put 1 oz. of each hop (5 nobles) in a cup, mix, and drop in the boil equally at 60, 15, and 0. Then dry hop with 1.5 to 2 oz. in the same way (all 5 nobles evenly split) in the secondary for about 7 days.

4. Use a docoction mash. Start with 80% of the grain and mash (ratio of 1.25 qts/lb) at 122F until conversion. Boil remaining 20% (also with ratio of 1.25 qts/lb) and add to mash tun once mash is finished to raise temp to 153F *quickly* (a point he emphasized). Mash at 153F until conversion.

5. They lager theirs for 3 weeks at 31F.

So I'll start with this and see how it goes. He did mention that he did not know the *exact* recipe, but that it would be pretty close. I still don't like the hop schedule, but I'm willing to try a few different versions. I mean, either way, the beer will be good.
 
Great tips there jgourd!

Did they mention yeast? I assume these hop measurements were for a 5 gal batch?
 
jkarp said:
Great tips there jgourd!

Did they mention yeast? I assume these hop measurements were for a 5 gal batch?
Click to expand...

No mention on yeast, sorry. And yes, 5 gal. batch. I normally go for 5.5 gal. batches. Keeping 1/6 of that for krausening means I'll take off almost 1 gal. after the boil and cool and freeze it. So I'll have 4.5 gals. in the fermenter with about 0.5 gal. loss during primary fermentation. Adding back 1 gal. during krausening leaves me with about 5 gals. in the secondary which is just right by me!

Somehow I remember a Boston Lager recipe that also krausened. The guy did mention they do that with all of their beers.
 
Going from a relatively...but in-work...untrained palate, i seem to taste saaz as a late addition (drinking one right now), so id say the op's original hop schedule looks good in the late addition regard.
 
Sipped on some Noble Pils a month ago, and now im hooked! Smells like the Hop Fridge at the LHBS! Thinkin about brewin this in a 2.5 gallon test batch... would be my first AG and Lager brew... Any tips?
 
Whelp, I'm gearing up to give this one a go. Based on everything I've read, I'm going with this recipe. Doubt I'll do the decoction, based on the data in Designing Great Beers.

Code: 
Noble Pils
----------
Style: Bohemian Pilsener
Batch: 3.50 gal All Grain

Characteristics
---------------
Recipe Gravity: 1.050 OG
Recipe Bitterness: 40 IBU
Recipe Color: 4 SRM
Estimated FG: 1.010
Alcohol by Volume: 5.2%

Ingredients
-----------
Honey Malt (Canadian)         0.25 lb, Grain, Mashed
Pilsener (German)             5.00 lb, Grain, Mashed
Two-row (US)                  1.00 lb, Grain, Mashed

Hallertauer                   0.33 oz, Pellet, 60 minutes
Hallertauer                   0.33 oz, Pellet, 15 minutes
Hallertauer                   0.33 oz, Pellet, 1 minutes
Hallertauer                   0.50 oz, Pellet, 0 minutes
Hersbrucker                   0.33 oz, Pellet, 60 minutes
Hersbrucker                   0.33 oz, Pellet, 15 minutes
Hersbrucker                   0.33 oz, Pellet, 1 minutes
Hersbrucker                   0.50 oz, Pellet, 0 minutes
Saaz                          0.33 oz, Pellet, 60 minutes
Saaz                          0.33 oz, Pellet, 15 minutes
Saaz                          0.33 oz, Pellet, 1 minutes
Saaz                          0.50 oz, Pellet, 0 minutes
Spalt                         0.33 oz, Pellet, 60 minutes
Spalt                         0.33 oz, Pellet, 15 minutes
Spalt                         0.33 oz, Pellet, 1 minutes
Spalt                         0.50 oz, Pellet, 0 minutes
Tettnanger                    0.33 oz, Pellet, 60 minutes
Tettnanger                    0.33 oz, Pellet, 15 minutes
Tettnanger                    0.33 oz, Pellet, 1 minutes
Tettnanger                    0.50 oz, Pellet, 0 minutes

WLP800                        1.00 unit, Yeast

Notes
-----
Recipe Notes:
122 deg protein rest
153 sac rest

Hold  back .5 gal of wort and 1/6 of yeast for krausening at end
of primary ferment
0 min additions are dry hop
3 wk lager @ 31
 
I'm ending up going with this guy for the first trial:

Code: 
Pilsner Aristocrat						
------------------						
Batch Size: 5.50 gal						
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG						
Estimated FG: 1.013 SG						
Estimated IBUs: 38.2 IBU						
Estimated Color: 3.9 SRM						
Brewhouse Efficiency: 68%						
Boil Time: 90 minutes						
						
Grains:						
10.50# Pilsner (2-Row) Germany (95.45%)						
0.50# Carapils/Dextrine (4.55%)						
						
Hops:						
0.50 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker (2.20%) @60 min						
0.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh (3.80%) @60 min						
0.50 oz Saaz (4.30%) @60 min						
0.50 oz Spalt Spalter (2.60%) @60 min						
0.25 oz Tettnang Tettnanger (4.70%) @60 min						
0.50 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker (2.20%) @15 min						
0.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh (3.80%) @15 min						
0.50 oz Saaz (4.30%) @15 min						
0.50 oz Spalt Spalter (2.60%) @15 min						
0.25 oz Tettnang Tettnanger (4.70%) @15 min						
0.50 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker (2.20%) @2 min						
0.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh (3.80%) @2 min						
0.50 oz Saaz (4.30%) @2 min						
0.50 oz Spalt Spalter (2.60%) @2 min						
0.50 oz Tettnang Tettnanger (4.70%) @2 min						
						
Yeast:						
White Labs WLP800 (Pilsner Lager)

I might do the decoction as the guy from SA suggested and may even krausen with 1/6 of the volume. Who knows. I will dry hop with about 0.5 oz. of each of the 5 nobles (2.5 oz. total).
 
jgourd said:
4. Use a docoction mash. Start with 80% of the grain and mash (ratio of 1.25 qts/lb) at 122F until conversion. Boil remaining 20% (also with ratio of 1.25 qts/lb) and add to mash tun once mash is finished to raise temp to 153F *quickly* (a point he emphasized). Mash at 153F until conversion..
Click to expand...

Can you clarify here? Mash at 122F until conversion:confused:? I assume that's the protein rest, not a saccharification rest, so how long should it be?

Thanks for putting the thought and research into this recipe. It is a very nice beer.
 
greenbirds said:
Can you clarify here? Mash at 122F until conversion:confused:? I assume that's the protein rest, not a saccharification rest, so how long should it be?

Thanks for putting the thought and research into this recipe. It is a very nice beer.
Click to expand...

Correct; protein rest. 15-30 minutes ought to do it. I think I remember another discussion which put the rest at about 20 minutes.
 
So I'm in the middle of my mash for this brew. We'll see how it turns out in a few months!
 
I was at a cask festival yesterday in PA, talking with the Sam Adams brewers there, I asked if they krausened the Noble Pils and they said no. The two brewers there said they krausen 5 beers, Lager, Lager light, Boston Ale, and two more that I don't remember.... Cask Fest... :drunk:

Oh well, let me know how you guys make out!
 
jgourd, how long did you leave in primary before moving to secondary for dry hopping? How has this gone so far? I love Noble Pils so I think I'll be giving this a shot soon.

Oh, and what's the idea/technique with the protein rest? I've only done simpler recipes, and haven't come across this step before (as least not knowingly!). Thanks for the help!

Cheers!
 
Slowfro said:
jgourd, how long did you leave in primary before moving to secondary for dry hopping? How has this gone so far? I love Noble Pils so I think I'll be giving this a shot soon.

Oh, and what's the idea/technique with the protein rest? I've only done simpler recipes, and haven't come across this step before (as least not knowingly!). Thanks for the help!

Cheers!
Click to expand...

It's still in the primary! I don't go with set times; instead, I use my hydrometer to clue me in as to when fermentation is complete. For lagers (pilsners in particular), I do a diacetyl rest once about 75% of the primary fermentation is complete. For me, this occurred after 7 days of fermentation at 50F for this batch. So I increased the temp to 60F (still in the primary) and will wait until fermentation is complete; that should be tomorrow or the day after. I'll then rack to secondary on top of some hops (dry hop), and continue fermenting at 60F for 7 days or so. Then I'll rack again to a third carboy and lager at 32F for 4 weeks before I prime and bottle. They'll probably sit in the bottle for a good 3 weeks at room temp until I pop one in the fridge for a few days to try it out!

Regarding the mash, I decided to do a single infusion mash at 152F for this one. I was short on time, and I'm not even sure how to hop profile will fare compared to the Noble Pils. I basically did the following:

Code: 
Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, 152F
Total Grain Weight: 11.00 lb
Mash for 60 min at 152F with 3.44 gal of water heated to 173F
Mash-out at 168F with 1.52 gal of water heated to 210F and hold for 10 minutes
Batch sparge at 168F with 4.74 gal of water heated to 177F

Of course, this is tailored to my process, temps, and quantities.

After tasting several samples throughout fermentation, I think it's fairly close so far, but we'll see after the dry hop. I think they use more Spalt Spalter than anything else in the aroma, but again, I'll see in a few weeks.
 
I'm brewing mine up tomorrow eve. Ran the water numbers last night and decided I need some lactic acid to get the RA down, so I'm off to the LHBS tonight to pick some up.
 
Alright thanks for the tips. I just wasn't sure how long your primary was going for, just to get an idea so I'm not checking with the hydro too early.

Any idea what this might turn out like without lagering it? I don't have the means to keep it at 32 for 4 weeks so I was going to simply brew, primary, dry hop in secondary then bottle. Thoughts?
 
Slowfro said:
Alright thanks for the tips. I just wasn't sure how long your primary was going for, just to get an idea so I'm not checking with the hydro too early.

Any idea what this might turn out like without lagering it? I don't have the means to keep it at 32 for 4 weeks so I was going to simply brew, primary, dry hop in secondary then bottle. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Are you using a lager yeast? If so, the lagering phase is pretty important. You may be better off using a clean ale yeast like US-05.
 
There's nothing that says you can't use a lager yeast but lager at warmer temperatures. I mean, RDWHAHB right? I'd primary as near to 50F as you can which will minimize the diacetyl. Do a diacetyl rest if you can at warmer temps (60F is good). Then dry hop for a week or so. If you can't lager, then I'd just bottle after dry hopping and let it "lager" in the bottle for a good month or more at the coldest temps I could find in my house.
 
Excellent, thanks for the tips! I will check temps in the basement and see what can work best, and will let you know how things go when I get to brewing - hopefully next week sometime.

Cheers!
 
After dry hopping for 7 days at 60F, I racked and now it's time to lager for about 4 weeks. I snuck a sample. Beer characteristics tend to change slightly and be perceived a bit differently when carbonated and cool, but so far we're pretty close. SANP has noticeable diacetyl (to me) at warmer temperatures. My clone has virtually none at this point. The flavor is close. The aroma is also close, but not as strong as the SANP. I'm not sure if this will change with lagering and bottle conditioning, but next time I'll probably dry hop with twice as much hops (2.5 oz instead of 1.25 oz). Overall though I'm happy so far, but we'll see once I pop open a bottle in about 6 weeks!
 
jkarp said:
Mine is now in day 7 of fermenting @ 50 deg and still happily bubbling away...
Click to expand...

Good luck! I ended up doing a diacetyl rest when primary fermentation was about 70% done since I had to head out of town for a few days and did not want to come back to a fully fermented lager without having done the rest. I have to say that from now on, I'm going to be pitching yeast in my lagers when the starter and wort are both 50F. Then the rest at 60F when fermentation is about 75% finished. It works wonders for me.
 
Glad to hear yours has gone well so far! I'm going to do some shopping today for brew day tomorrow (finally!).

Question for you though when talking about the protein rest...
Your recipe says 90 minute boil but then the 15-30 minute protein rest. I've never done this (at least not intentionally) so what do I need to do?

Thanks!
Mike
 
Slowfro said:
Glad to hear yours has gone well so far! I'm going to do some shopping today for brew day tomorrow (finally!).

Question for you though when talking about the protein rest...
Your recipe says 90 minute boil but then the 15-30 minute protein rest. I've never done this (at least not intentionally) so what do I need to do?

Thanks!
Mike
Click to expand...

I actually decided to do a single infusion mash at 153F on this one. So I mashed for 60 min. and then collected first runnings. Batch sparged and collected second runnings. Then boil for 90 min.
 
jgourd said:
I actually decided to do a single infusion mash at 153F on this one. So I mashed for 60 min. and then collected first runnings. Batch sparged and collected second runnings. Then boil for 90 min.
Click to expand...

I realize I may have been vague in my reply. Here's exactly what I did. Bear in mind that I wanted a preboil volume of 8.5 gals.

I mashed at 153F for 60 mins with a water-to-grain ratio of 1.25 qts per lb of grain. For my grain bill, that was about 3.5 gals water for the dough-in. I then mashed out by adding about 1.5 gals water heated to 210F, mixed well, vorlauf, and collect first runnings (3.75 gals). I batched sparged with about 4.75 gals water heated to 177F, mixed well, vorlauf, and collected second runnings (4.75 gals). I had a total 8.5 gals to the kettle and started the 90 min boil.

With regard to your protein rest question: that's essentially an alteration of the mash schedule and has nothing to do with the boil. A 90 min boil helps reduce DMS, a substance generated especially in Pilsner malts. In essence, instead of mashing right away at 153F for 60 mins, you begin the mash with 80% of the grain bill at 122F and perform the protein rest for about 20 mins. You then quickly raise the temperature of the mash (via a decoction of the remaining 20% of the grain bill) to 153F. I found this not necessary this time since I mainly wanted to see if my recipe is close to theirs in terms of flavor and aroma. If it is, then I may use this mash schedule for the next batch.
 
flyerwire said:
awesome thread, i'm ready to dig in to brew this. jgourd, how did the sample taste as far as hop flavor?
Click to expand...

Pretty darn close. But of course, that's subjective. What's close to one may be off to another. I am in the process of lagering now, and intend to bottle in a few weeks (sometime around 5/1). Pilsner malts taste very different at different temps (to me). I tasted my samples anywhere from 50-60F (in addition to warmer samples during the brewing process and right after chilling). Serving temperature for this one is best cold (35-40F or even colder!). That will affect flavor a bit. So my last taste test prior to bottling will be more of an indicator than any of my previous ones. I'll let you know! :D

Oh. I think I notice more of Spalt in the aroma in the original. Next time I may double the quantity of Spalt or maybe reduce some of the other nobles.
 
I pitched in the held back wort and yeast last thurs and then brought it up to room temp over the weekend for dry hopping. Just started the 3 week lager at 31F this morning...
 
jkarp said:
I pitched in the held back wort and yeast last thurs and then brought it up to room temp over the weekend for dry hopping. Just started the 3 week lager at 31F this morning...
Click to expand...

I await your results! I decided not to krausen this time around. I'd be interested to know what you think. Did you do the protein rest too or just single infusion? And what recipe did you use?
 
jgourd said:
I await your results! I decided not to krausen this time around. I'd be interested to know what you think. Did you do the protein rest too or just single infusion? And what recipe did you use?
Click to expand...

My recipe is on page 2 of this thread. Did indeed do a protein rest.
 

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