Using a burner indoors...

I just bought a burner last night, and i'm going to brew tomorrow. I want to use it, but is it safe to use it inside? I plan on keeping an eye on it the entire time, and opening a nearby door to give it oxygen.

Still, I have worries. Advice?

Just be careful. Make sure you have good ventilation. Maybe keep a fan running, close to an open door is good too. If you can, just do it on your porch. It makes more sense to keep fire outside, not to mention if you have a boilover you get to clean that up inside. Ick.

Imagine trying to convince your insurance company that they should pay you if there was an accidental fire. Those burners are clearly labeled for outdoor use only so I think you'd be very screwed.

Unless you have some really serious ventilation, I wouldn't risk it. CO poisoning, as mentioned above, is nothing to mess with.

Basic Brewing did a podcast with the National Propane Gas Association just 2 days ago regarding this exact topic. I really didn't listen to it, but I'm sure the interviewee will have some very good information on this:

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr01-08-09propane.mp3

carnevoodoo said:

Just be careful. Make sure you have good ventilation. Maybe keep a fan running, close to an open door is good too. If you can, just do it on your porch. It makes more sense to keep fire outside, not to mention if you have a boilover you get to clean that up inside. Ick.

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I agree. Many of us have gas or propane cooking stoves, so I don't think the CO levels could become toxic from a burner or turkey fryer. I run my fan, and I keep a fire extinguisher nearby, and I NEVER leave my burner unattended. Just be safe and use common sense.

Carbon Monoxide is an issue as well as running the risk of a fire. To me, it would be worth waiting to use the new burner til Spring. You may be alright using it indoors but why risk carbon monoxide poisoning or burning your house down. Plus, your insurance will pay nothing if your outdoor burner caused a fire.

KayaBrew said:

I agree. Many of us have gas or propane cooking stoves, so I don't think the CO levels could become toxic from a burner or turkey fryer. I run my fan, and I keep a fire extinguisher nearby, and I NEVER leave my burner unattended. Just be safe and use common sense.

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The BTU's on the burner are much higher than a burner on a stovetop. The more propane that is burned = more CO. Also, propane is heavier than air, so in the event of a leak, an open window will not help. The propane gas will sit low in the room and build up. Very dangerous situation. Just a few tidbits of info to help decide whether to use it inside or not. To me, there are too many risks involved in using it indoors. Be safe.

One more thing to be aware of the first few times you fire up the burner... The paint will certainly burn and cause some awful smelling fumes. I use mine in the garage with the door open and at least a window for some cross ventilation. FWIW, I would not use a burner indoors, even with the paint burned off.

"Inside" is kind of vague. In a garage or basement with good air intake/exhaust, maybe. In a kitchen, probably not. I would also gauge the safety based on your own safety record. If you're a clutz always knocking stuff over or forgetting to turn the stove burner off, it's even worse.

Definitely don't use it inside over your wood or vinyl flooring. Garage, basement with concrete floors are much better.

How cold is it outside there? You don't have to hover over your brew every second, especially while you're just heating up the water. If you need to watch all the time, just stand inside and watch it through the window, and run out when you need to. The times to really watch are as the hot break is forming just before your wort boils, and right after you make any hop additions.

KayaBrew said:

I agree. Many of us have gas or propane cooking stoves, so I don't think the CO levels could become toxic from a burner or turkey fryer. I run my fan, and I keep a fire extinguisher nearby, and I NEVER leave my burner unattended. Just be safe and use common sense.

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I'm betting that even if you turned on all 4 burners to your stove at the same time it would not use as much gas per hour as would that outdoor burner. Less gas used should equate to less CO being emitted, I'd think. Not to mention that your stove is likely engineered to burn cleaner. And I don't know about your stove and kettle setup, but I can't use more than one burner with my kettle.

Of course all these responses aren't likely to overcome the natural ability of humans to rationalize anything we want to do and convince ourselves we can get away with doing.

Don't do it.

I don't know much about brewing but being a homeowner and evaluating the things I can afford to lose, I would not risk my house by brewing indoors with an outdoor burner.

I have brewed twice in my garage. To do this I must lift open the garage door about 6 inches and leave the side entrance door open to keep a good ventilation. Even doing this, I generate a tremendous amount of steam. I don't have to be worried about propane collecting on the floor due to leaks either.

Your going to do what you like, just putting in my two cents.

I use mine "indoors". It's a converted garage, concrete floor and fire-rated drywall. I brew with the doors and window open and I have a CO monitor.

You have to check with the manufacturer. Only they know the CO2 output.

Gas stoves work fine indoors, but you never fire up the barbacue indoors.

Regardless, get yourself a CO2 monitor, as stated above.

s3n8 said:

One more thing to be aware of the first few times you fire up the burner... The paint will certainly burn and cause some awful smelling fumes. I use mine in the garage with the door open and at least a window for some cross ventilation. FWIW, I would not use a burner indoors, even with the paint burned off.

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+1 on that!! I would not use it in doors myself, it does radiate heat outwards and downwards, so if you have lanolium (probably spelled worng) you might want to put something like a piece of plywood down or somehting?

Just remember that CO and CO2 are very different things, and while both can kill you, CO does it at about 50 times less concentration as CO2. You'll want a monitor for both.

Bad idea. Don't do it. I started on an icy patio. By the end of the boil the patio under was dry and the legs had melted into the ice as well.

I would wait till' you can do it outdoors, too risky................

I'm going to somewhat disagree with the other replies.

Plenty of people heat their homes with kerosene heaters that give off the same emissions as the propane. They run them constantly, even over night so I doubt the concentration of co or co2 from 1 brew will be any worse.

CO and CO2 build up are most dangerous when you are sleeping. You just never wake up. I've been on job sites where exhaust levels got too high and you have a burning sensation in your eyes, they need O2. So don't dose off while brewing.

I brew on a wooden deck and have never worried about the wooden deck getting too hot.

You will get a lot of moisture off the flame and boil though.

Even with what I've stated I would still recommend doing it outside. Throw a tent up and go at it.

T Red said:

Throw a tent up and go at it.

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Oh, good idea...a tent is so well ventilated (ever been in one with someone who has some bad booze/camping food farts going???

I haven't seen any more posts by the guy who started this thread. Do you think he's OK? Seriously, I hope he didn't try out that new burner in his kitchen.

Gonefishing said:

Oh, good idea...a tent is so well ventilated (ever been in one with someone who has some bad booze/camping food farts going???

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seriously?

That's not a tent... that's a shade, but that would be cool to brew under, especially if one side were closed for a windbreak.

Greyhound said:

I haven't seen any more posts by the guy who started this thread. Do you think he's OK? Seriously, I hope he didn't try out that new burner in his kitchen.

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Haha, i'm fine. Just deciding what to do. It's almost brew time... it's in my basement, on a cement floor, but it isn't well ventilated, though I can change that...

I think I'm gonna go through with it guys, I'll post in a few hours let you know how it went!

Thanks for all the advice:]

size said:

I think I'm gonna go through with it guys, I'll post in a few hours let you know how it went!

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Famous last words

This past weekend, I did the last 30 minutes of my boil in my basement. So cold outside the pressure in the propane tank dropped so low I had no flame. I opened the window, and had no problems. Kept 2 extinguishers handy, in different places. CO monitor never beeped.

I would burn the paint off a new stove before trying it, though.

Blah, blah, blah carbon monoxide, death, loss of limbs. Utter nonsense! I've done 20 brews in a finished garage without issue. Use a little common sense and go make beer in your basement, it will be fine.

wildwest450 said:

Blah, blah, blah carbon monoxide, death, loss of limbs. Utter nonsense! I've done 20 brews in a finished garage without issue. Use a little common sense and go make beer in your basement, it will be fine.

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I think you and I are gonna be gooood friends

wildwest450 said:

Blah, blah, blah carbon monoxide, death, loss of limbs. Utter nonsense! I've done 20 brews in a finished garage without issue. Use a little common sense and go make beer in your basement, it will be fine.

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That answers a lot of questions I had about you.

the OP must not be married... or plans to do this when his wife is not home. Mine would notice if I had the windows in the basement open in the winter and might complain a bit.

Serious question though... is there a door to the outside in that basement? If so how about doing it by the open door with a box fan doing some venting duties for you?

Just one last quick story about a friend who was doing some work in his basement and didn't think it posed any danger to him or his house. He was working on his very custom Harley. closed the petcock and removed the tank. The fuel in the line, or carb, or both, ran out a little but he didn't pay that any attention until his water heater pilot (he had thought to shut the furnace off) ignited it, and the bike. He managed to get it out as flames were licking on the joists to the floor above and before anything else ignited. All this is just to say, be sure you got ALL your bases covered and be careful.

Gonefishing said:

the OP must not be married... or plans to do this when his wife is not home. Mine would notice if I had the windows in the basement open in the winter and might complain a bit.

Serious question though... is there a door to the outside in that basement? If so how about doing it by the open door with a box fan doing some venting duties for you?

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Bit of a young'n, just turned 22. No ring on this finger:]

Right now, the way the house is set up, it's very complicated. Basically I have two fans going (one right above the burner) and two doors a few inches open.

I'm boiling water with a propane stove indoors right now, and in a small bedroom, no less. There is absolutely nothing wonrg wht frgbllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll................

I'm going to somewhat disagree with the other replies.

Plenty of people heat their homes with kerosene heaters that give off the same emissions as the propane. They run them constantly, even over night so I doubt the concentration of co or co2 from 1 brew will be any worse.

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Those are designed for indoor use. The difference in emissions isn't based on what fuel is being burned as much as, how is the burner designed, and how well is it functioning.

CO and CO2 build up are most dangerous when you are sleeping. You just never wake up. I've been on job sites where exhaust levels got too high and you have a burning sensation in your eyes, they need O2. So don't dose off while brewing.

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When CO2 gets to your eyes, your throat, anything moist, it condenses and forms carbonic acid. This is where the stinging is coming from, and occurs at around 5000ppm. This is minor CO2 Poisoning, and an indication that you are doing something very foolish already. Its not a good indication of CO however. During any combustion reaction, you get 2 products, CO2 and H2O. Anything else produced is due to an inefficient reaction, or an incomplete reaction.

CO poisoning however, begins at 70ppm, and will kill you at 400ppm.

Burners labeled for outdoor use can produce very toxic levels of CO - because they are meant to be used outdoors where it will diffuse very fast and not become concentrated.

To be able to be used indoors, it has to follow a lot more strict standards. Its silly to compare the two.

Even with what I've stated I would still recommend doing it outside. Throw a tent up and go at it.

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Good advice...the problem with CO poisoning is, it'll kill you fast...before you even know its there. The CO can build up in an enclosed space so fast that you skip the headache and vomiting step, and go straight to the passing out and dying step.

T Red said:

I'm going to somewhat disagree with the other replies.

Plenty of people heat their homes with kerosene heaters that give off the same emissions as the propane. They run them constantly, even over night so I doubt the concentration of co or co2 from 1 brew will be any worse.

CO and CO2 build up are most dangerous when you are sleeping. You just never wake up. I've been on job sites where exhaust levels got too high and you have a burning sensation in your eyes, they need O2. So don't dose off while brewing.

I brew on a wooden deck and have never worried about the wooden deck getting too hot.

You will get a lot of moisture off the flame and boil though.

Even with what I've stated I would still recommend doing it outside. Throw a tent up and go at it.

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Home heating systems are vented to the outdoors. It is the same reasoning why the tailpipe of your car is on the back near the road, and not next to the rear view mirror.

FWIW, I also believe most indoor approved gas heaters use some sort of catalyst to keep CO2 levels down to as close to zero as possible.

nebben said:

Home heating systems are vented to the outdoors. It is the same reasoning why the tailpipe of your car is on the back near the road, and not next to the rear view mirror.

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Of course, I'm not referring to that system.

nebben said:

FWIW, I also believe most indoor approved gas heaters use some sort of catalyst to keep CO2 levels down to as close to zero as possible.

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I don't believe the catalyst does anything to the CO2, it may reduce CO via more efficient combustion. I have never seen a catalyst on one.


Setzer_777
I agree with your points.
The kerosene heaters I've been around produce more pollutants than any of the propane cookers I've seen. Granted they probably shouldn't. I don't see how people can stand it.

I listened to the Basic Brewing podcast... and have to agree with the guy. He speaks the party line, but I can speak from some experience.

TURKEY FRYERS ARE FOR OUTDOOR USE ONLY. They produce MUCH more CO than any appliance or heater that is APPROVED for indoor use. I have used my turkey fryer in a garage with the door half open before and repeatedly suffered from headaches and nausea associated with high CO levels. More than three times (not a coincidence)

You are not only NOT supposed to use those burners "indoors" which includes a garage with an open door... you are not supposed to have a 20lb LP cylinder "indoors" either. 1lb cylinders are approved for storage and use "indoors".

You may live, you may not burn your house down... but IF and this is a big IF, anything happens, you are on your own. Try explaining that one to the wife and kids.

Well? Are you still alive?