Experienced with gluten problems, confused beer beginner

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KevinM

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First off, I'd like to thank all of you for even having this section of the forum, it's been incredibly helpful.

I had just begun to get into tasting decent beer when I found out that I had gluten reactions so I have trouble with the different styles. Pre-Gluten Free, I prefered reds and stouts, as far as I knew, and pretty much just hit one microbrewery a month to go for a sample set to try to find what I liked, what I didn't like, and the differences between them. I then had to stop, only drinking new grist or redbridge and not finding either really to my taste, recently a resturant (Jolly Pumpkin) here offered a gluten free beer (Belgian style IPA?) comprised of sorghum, rice, tapioca and chestnut. I also found that the local supply shop carried sorghum syrup and the safale/saflagers line of gluten free yeasts.

I'd like to attempt some gluten free styles, and I've been reading through the wealth of information both in the threads and the wiki, but I'm having trouble finding where a good starting point would be. Someone had suggested to create a simple ...ESB..? with WGV, or WVG... Golding hops and the Saf-ale T-58. And I'm trying that, though I think I diluted it too much and wound up with a lower OG that I needed, perhaps because I scaled down the recipe to create a gallon at a time and somehow added too much water. At this point, it's been bottled for over a week, and while alcoholic, it's lacking taste, body and enough carbonation, so I'm just using it for cooking.

Now, I'm having trouble with a great deal of the style terminology, and while I'd like to try to make the chocolate-coffee stout at some point, I'd like to start off easy and practice with one style that comes close to something I'd like to drink. Would there be any recommendations? You'll probably have to explain it to me pretty slowly.

I'm also wondering about both DKeshner and Lcasanova, how did you begin your gluten free brewing? Was it starting off gluten free or did you have prior experience to know what you were aiming for?
 
I started by diving right into it. Okay, that's a lie, I started by making cider first and once I got used to the sanitation and cleaning and bottling I decided to give gluten free beer a shot. That said, gluten free beer is the only kind of beer I have ever brewed, I have no experience with brewing glutenous beer- DKershner does though. But I did a small test batch and figured- well that wasn't too hard. So I came up with the recipe for my Brown Ale and went on to other styles from there. Some have been great, others not so great.

Honestly, I was aiming for a beer that was drinkable and wasn't so obviously gluten free. I think my brown ale and pumpkin ales have done that and to some extent the double IPA and the blood orange hefe. That said, I've gotten plenty of ideas from others on here and some ideas from regular beers and misc posts in HBT.

My advice to you- look through the gluten free forum to see if there is a recipe for a style you would like to brew and give it a shot. Most recently I brewed an experimental Blonde and I am going to brew up another Pumpkin Ale this weekend.

Welcome aboard!
 
Oh- I haven't tried the whole chestnut thing either. It seems pretty expensive for those chips and a 12 or 24 hour mash (I don't remember what it is) just isn't going to work for me. But it seems like some people like that kind of beer.
 
I am just about to brew a Gluten free beer, I don't have a problem but my boss does. I have over 100 all grain batches under my belt.
I first plan to start with white sorghum extract, I would try to make pale ale type recipe with Notingham dry yeast. I need to flavor the beer some how to take the full Sorghum flavor down a notch. My favorite non-gluten adjunct is molasses it makes a great beer complement flavor. I probably will find some other items to drive up the complexity a little bit to. If you look at all the non-gluten beer recipes they are all more complex recipes with multi-flavors to hide the difference between between Sorghum and Malt as the base of the beer. Your options to hide the Sorghum is Yeast, hops or adjuncts. There not many choices for G-F yeasts, and they don't include the yeast with the big flavor profiles, like hefe, belgians or bugs so that's out of the question. That leaves high IPA hops and other additions with big flavor additions.
 
I did try molasses in my second batch, just a ounce in a gallon batch. It seemed to give the beer a different flavor that my tester didn't like. I have another 4 gallons going of some test batches using a saflager yeast and mount hood hops. I'll be attempting to bottle 2 of those gallons at the end of this weekend with the other 2 gallons later on. I really upped the hops on the second set since I wasn't paying attention, so we'll see what happens with that.
Like you said Yodalegomaster, all the more complex recipes have multiple flavors of which I don't understand on a personal level what they do yet. Sorghum, molasses and brown rice syrup seem to be the main and I've added some brown rice syrup solids to my 3rd and 4th gallon that I have going so I'll find out a bit more about the differences between them as I taste.
Thanks for the link Lcasanova. I was wondering a bit about the steeped gluten free grains and toasting them vs the enzymatic mash. I think my main problem is understanding styles and what they're expected to be like. Despite reading about them, I just am not aware of them as I'd like, especially since I can't go, this style tastes like this. I thought I'd start with beer before cider or mead. All my prior fermentation has to do with yogurt and kefir.
I'll probably be doing another T-58/WVG since I had asked about it at the store. But I'll see if I can figure the brown ale next.
 
There's no problem starting out simple then adding additional ingredients to see what they add and if you like it. As far as styles go, I don't know a whole LOT about all of them but I just follow the general guidelines like Gravity, IBU's, and Color to start then by my experience with them.

For grains you'll want to look around the GF forum for advice on that. Steeping roasted grains is a good way to start before you get into malting and/or enzymatic mashes- I haven't messed around with those yet myself- DKershner might be able to shed some theoretical advice on that (I don't think he's done a GF one either).
 
I had been brewing for about 4 years before I ever tried to make a gluten free beer. Had I known they existed, I would've done it a lot sooner.

It sounds like you have gotten the basics of the brew process down, and you are ready to move on to the more advanced ingredients we use around here. At the current time, we have some good recipes around here, but I am searching for a good base to move into more advanced flavors. If you would like our help making a red or a stout, just let us know. I made a stout in the past couple weeks and am still in the ferment process with. So, it could come out well, or not so well.

As for "x style tastes like y", try the BJCP Style Guidelines. They are a homebrewing association that just does exactly what you asked.

When it comes to enzymes in mashes, only chestnuts have been tried out fully around here. Anything else would be you pioneering the way. I am looking for an easier way to go about making this beer than going all grain for the time being, but I am sure I will get there eventually. If you have any specific questions on mashing though, ask, because several people have tried it, and I am a well-versed all grain brewer, just not GF.

Anyway, we are here to help, just let us know what you want to accomplish. We try to describe the best we can what each ingredient adds to a beer, but we aren't really pros at this either. For instance, my GF and I think brown rice syrup adds a bisquick, bready flavor that quickly fades to a faint flavor in a beer.

Oh, and mead is a pain in the ass, get good at wine before you move to mead.
 
When it comes to enzymes in mashes, only chestnuts have been tried out fully around here. Anything else would be you pioneering the way. I am looking for an easier way to go about making this beer than going all grain for the time being, but I am sure I will get there eventually. If you have any specific questions on mashing though, ask, because several people have tried it, and I am a well-versed all grain brewer, just not GF.


Oh, and mead is a pain in the ass, get good at wine before you move to mead.

before i started brewing, ive got 10 5-6 gal batches under my belt, i read The complete joy of homebrewing by charles papazian. its all glutenous though, but the processes is there,


i find enzymatic mashes arent all that hard. ive figured out 3 things that make the process managable for the GF brewed. ive done this with 2 chestnut batches and 4 quinoa batches.

1st is the mash tun. i use a 5 gal igloo watercooler, like sport teams use, replace the stupid spigot on it witha ball valve. for one the spigot is a pain to hold down for as long as its going to take to sparge, and the ball valve is much much easier to clean and sanitize. (i also have an fitting to screw on to the ball valve thats attached to a bottling thief, makes bottling a hell of a lot easier. siphon beer from secondary to watercooler with priming sugar and then just let gravity do the rest.

second, for GF, false bottoms are a pain in the A$$. with the size of most GF grains, all they do is get stuck and piss me off. ive tossed it over my shoulder and use a large nylon grain bag instead. so line the mash tun with the grain bag put a layer of rice hulls about 2 in think on the bottom, toss grain on top of that, add water at desired temp, add amaylase enzyme ( mine is from baker and crosby) and pectinase enzyme ( LBHS).
when you sparge and it gets stuck, simply re-adjust the grain bag until flow is re-established.

home malting ( at least with quinoa) is nearly idiot proof. all about that ive posted here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/quinoa-pale-ale-185852/index2.html.


for mead. i dont find it hard at all, champange yeast, yeast nutrients (or rasins) honey, and water.

add water honey and yeast nutrients ( boil water first and let it cool) together in a jug, shake the S*** out of it for 5-10 minutes to airate it. pitch the yeast and ferment, rack in a week, rack again.
 
for mead. i dont find it hard at all, champange yeast, yeast nutrients (or rasins) honey, and water.

Well, I guess hard isn't the right word, but nothing in brewing is particularly hard to do, just hard to perfect.

Honey is just so devoid of nutrients that it makes it the hardest ferment to accomplish well. I would call it slightly harder than a big beer with the multiple nutrient additions.
 
Yeah, after reading some things here and at the lhbs itself, I picked up a few books from the public library. The main one being The Complete Handbook of Home Brewing. They didn't have the other at the library. I also read a bit on two types of beers to see more on the differences in style. After a few weeks of reading I attempted that first batch. It's tasting a little better now that it's been bottled for a few more weeks, but some of it just went to a beer cheddar soup, and before that a either a braised chicken and cabbage, or bratwurst and onions. I can't recall.

I may try the ESB style once more since I had asked the lhbs to order some more, then I'm sure I'll have more questions when I attempt .. probably a variant on the chocolate coffee stout. Possibly just a plain coffee stout, or milk stout. I homeroast coffee so I'm really curious about what different flavors those might give, but I may find something that will work with a cold brew since I thought I saw some mentioning of the oils given off by coffee normally could cause some off tones in the other threads.
 
Since you home roast your own coffee that means you could get some good roasty flavors by using it to roast some GF grains- something I plan to do in the future.

Here's a recipe for an ESB I plan to brew at some point
 
Since you home roast your own coffee that means you could get some good roasty flavors by using it to roast some GF grains- something I plan to do in the future.

Here's a recipe for an ESB I plan to brew at some point

Depending on how he roasts, chances are good the roaster wouldn't work on grain. Coffee beans are much larger and most people have an appliance dedicated to this task. If he is a BBQ roaster...then maybe.

But I don't even drink coffee, so you would know what flavors coffee would impart much better than us. Add grounds to the fermenter for ease and flavor reasons...that's about all I know.
 
I'm thinking about using one once I get it. I saw this Basic Brewing Video where the guys used an old popcorn popper to roast some coffee beans and thought- well if that works why wouldn't it work for grains?
 
I've been considering that exact item. I use a cheap popcorn popper as well for the beans. I've been considering the shape and size of the gluten free grains, I normally eat quinoa and millet (and rice) so I know the sizes for those, but haven't looked into the size of buckwheat. I'm wondering how it would flow in the chamber. If it cycles and doesn't get into the angled vents, then it should be fine, I might need a higher chimney so the small grains don't blow out. I'll be testing that, thankfully, I have some broken ones where the heater has burnt out so I won't be risking a firehazard if it doesn't work. It'd be quicker to roast this way if it's possible.
 
It would be a lot quicker and you could probably get a wider range of "roasts" easier. If you do end up doing it with one that works, do it outside just in case. I think sorghum is one of the larger GF grains and I have a 5 gallon bucket full of it.

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=video

Look for April 12, 2009 for the video

I think coffee roasting smells just as bad from what I have heard. :cross:
 
honestly i think toasting buckwheat, quinoa, and millet all smell like grapenuts.
but malting quinoa smells rather nasty....
 
It appears that the vents on the air popcorn popper are going to be a problem, I checked sorghum, millet, quinoa and buckwheat and they seem to enter those vents during either the initial addition to the popper and the pour out. I'd consider a different style of air popper, but for the most part, I think doing it this way would only be useful for experimental one gallon batches anyways, since the limit is 3 oz at a time, that's the amount of coffee (or popcorn) that goes into the machine. It'd be enough for me, but I'd have to consider if I wanted to buy something for 20 bucks that I'm not sure would work.

I was about to work on a one pound coffee roaster, but decided to use the money for beer instead so I'll keep it in mind so I can test out the smaller air roaster and see if it would eventually be worthwhile. It'd also be limited to unmalted or is that sprouted, or possibly malted and already dried, and judging from quantities, the main use would be the small steeping adjuncts.
 
You could still use it for large batches. This is your "specialty grain" that you don't need a whole lot of anyways, right? I think I'll eventually get a coffee roaster and try it, if anything I just use it for coffee :)
 
True for both. I'll wind up doing the same, and may see about hitting the store this or next week. I'll check on the size of a grid-bottomed air popper to see if the mesh is small enough not to let anything drop through.

The other one, which is better for coffee, had it dropping into the fan and the defunct heat coil.
 
It seems that the lower grate style air popper has a chance of working. The size of the grains and the airflow creates quite a bit of movement and I expect to be able to toast half a pound and reasonably more this way. I don't know what the results will be yet, because even with a foot long chimney attached to the popper, I had quinoa and millet spraying out all over.

I expect that it will work since I tested millet and quinoa, which I feel have the smallest grain size, but I have a feeling I'll need a slightly taller removeable chimney and an airflow director.

I'll let you know any further results when I try that next. I'm behind on my beer making and need to catch up on it. I still don't know how much use it would be when people are doing malted grains unless a combination of both works. I'll be sticking with extracts for a few more gallons first, since I'll only have had 6 weeks as of Wednesday of beer brewing. My first attempt is finally getting to the point of drinkability. Too bad there's only two bottles left from the original gallon.
 
During my last 4 gallon tests, I've realized I've had a bit of an oops moment. I was using a calculator (not beersmith) to approximate the OG and expected FG and abV% of several Safbrew T-58 brews. However, it seems that the OG is somewhere in the area of 1.120=1.130 rather than the 1.060-1.080 that I was looking for. After a week in the primary, I haven't tested it, but it seems rather high, and after discussing it with a co-worker, he agrees and we wondered about diluting the secondary with water. All I wound up doing was topping it off with some boiled and cooled water(which may be a mistake). This seems to have reactivated the fermentation, and is probably going to throw my expectations for FG out the window.

Is this likely to taste like fizzy cough syrup once it's finished, and if the sugar content is expected to be that high at the end, is there a good idea on how to carbonate it other than pressurizing it in a container? (I'd wind up having to use a seltzer bottle or something.) Or should I leave it in the secondaries for an extended period?
A quick taste test during the racking did have a sweet cough syrup flavor from the unfermented sugar.
 
I don't think I saw it, but can you post the recipe? That might help us calculate what your OG would have been- I am assuming you didn't take a gravity reading...

How long has it been in primary? Are you sure fermentation did actually take off (an OG would have helped determine this by comparing it to what you have now)? I think I've read somewhere around here about using Champagne yeast in a situation like this but do not take my word for it.
 
All 4 batches were expected to be 2.5 pounds of sorgum syrup and half a pound of brown rice syrup solids. (I expect that should have been syrup come to think of it). And one gallon of water. Hop schedules were:
.5 ounce 60 minutes
.25 ounce 15 minutes
(remainder .25 was for dry hopping).
and a bit of irish moss for the last 10 minutes.
Set 1: Yakima Magnum
Set 2: WGV
Set 3: German Perle
Set 4: U.K. Kent Golding

The OG was:
Set 1: 1.11
Set 2: 1.12
Set 3 and 4: 1.13
OG temperature was not taken.
I thought it had seemed a bit high since I was looking for 1.08, but I had put it down to the temperature being over 60 degrees. Later I found that there's no way temperature correction would account for the difference.

The first fermentation did start by the next morning and was in for a week, each had a layer of froth and was bubbling steadily.
It finished the first racking on Friday with a rather thick sediment layer. It was put into the secondary with the hops and about a cup of room temperature water. The fermentation restarted quickly for three of them, with the fourth lagging a bit (I had thought it had stopped). So far, there's been no odd smells or wierd growths. I unfortunately didn't write down the OG reading I had taken, which I'm blaming on the vicodin that I was on for the week.
If it wasn't due to the restarted fermentation for the WGV batch, I would have tried putting it into a seltzer bottle and sampling it tomorrow before asking.
 
Okay- your OG's are in the right spot. In my experimental batches where I boil 1.5 gallons of water to yield between .85 and .75 gallons into the fermenter I usually use a little over 1 lb of fermentables. That said, you about tripled it and any hop utilization you would have had went out the window. You were boiling a VERY thick wort.

Now, I don't know the technique for fermenting a beer with an OG that high but my guess is that you now need to use a yeast that will bring the OG down and can work in that environment. DKershner probably has some insights on this and can correct anything I've already said that was wrong.
 
Yeah, my first 4 trials were using 1 pound to one gallon. I think I'll stick to that for further hop and yeast experiments until I better understand attenuation and fermenting temperatures. Since the only space I have is my closet, or the bathtub, it's been about 70 degrees ambient, which could mean that it's been running hot as well.
 
That sounds like it would work pretty well, similar situations to what I did it seems. In which case I'll just let it continue to finish fermenting and take another reading before either reracking or just adding a wine yeast. I have to hit the store for yeasts for cider anyways now that busy time at work is through.
 
Lol, 4 accidental 11% beers, fun!

In any case, champagne yeast should be a last ditch effort as it will ruin your experiment and make the beer very thin (although I am not sure it isn't already ruined since you wont want to drink these for about a year).

As for progress from here, let these suckers go...for a LONG time. I have had fermentations take 30 days up at that range, and I wouldn't be surprised if yours took longer since you didn't take any steps to prepare the wort or do staggered sugar additions or anything. Let it sit for 30 days minimum before you even look at these things again.

After that, take a hydro reading and see what you have (take note of the temperature this time). If it seems reasonable, then let it sit for another month or so and then bottle it. You may add some yeast when you bottle in order to be sure it carbonates.

In any case, your Barleywine Reserve series should be interesting to taste come this time next year, but I wouldn't really touch em before then.

Cheers! :mug:
 
Here's a small sorghum test in a popcorn popper. I used 4 oz of (hulled?) White Sorghum for 6 minutes. I'm not sure what I've acheived other than finding out that sorghum makes a nice mini popcorn which has an interesting taste.

Whitesorghumtest.jpg
 
Here's a better comparison shot of the Sorghum. The Sorghum was purchased from a local asian mart that has two pound bags for 2.79.
ToastedSorghum.jpg

Again, it was only able to be roasted in a popcorn popper for 6 minutes and I didn't think I could go longer since it was starting to pop.

I did try some oats (Probably not gluten free) as a similar test, but these I only roasted in the same popper for 4-5 minutes and got a darker coloration from them.
ToastedOats.jpg


I'm still searching the forums to see what roasted unmalted grains actually do (other than toasty flavors) to compare. I know that Lcasanova has roasted buckwheat in the Brown Ale and I've seen aggieotis mention a roasted millet but it was mashed.
Any of you know the difference between Not malted but roasted:
Oats
Sorghum
Millet
Quinoa
Amaranth
Rice
Buckwheat
Coffee
Cocoa beans
And everything else?
(Yes, I've found a local source for dried fermented cocoa beans which means I can roast that to any degree I'd want, but I think I'll just get the roasted nibs from them.)

As for coffee, I would think the results can vary based on the coffee source and degree of roast. For normal drinking, the coffee process: wet-process, dry-process, country, region, farm, location on the farm itself. Body, brightness, acidity. How does this affect the taste in the resulting beer? Will my Guatemala Fraijanes - Finca Agua Tibia with it's chocolate overtones be different than my Costa Rican Lourdes de Naranjo - Finca Genesis with it's lemon-honey and dried fruit notes or Aged Sumatran Lintong Peaberry with it's expected peppery sweetness?

I hope to be able to do coffee in beer comparision, I'm considering doing some roasts and steep it in both cold water and add some vodka, and steep directly in vodka to see if there's any difference at all, or due to the resulting dilution (which using per DKeshner's Stout is looking at most 1oz per gallon and likely .1oz per gallon) may mean that I'll be going "...Yeah, I taste coffee..." (And I'll dig in the forum to see if anyone else has details on it.)
 
"...Yeah, I taste coffee..."

OK, you said a lot in that post, I will try to get to everything I wanted to say.

Roast No Malt: This is essentially the same thing as "steeping" in extract recipes. This process adds a very small amount of sugar, some minor amount of flavor, and a lot of color. Mashing (malted grains or amylase) on the other hand, adds lots of sugar, lots of flavor, and the same amount of color.

Grain list: I think oats have to be mashed, or else you will get a ton of starches. The rest can probably be steeped so long as they are uncracked. Except...

Coffee: Do not put whole coffee beans in beer, the oils will run havoc on head retention and carbonation in general will feel different due to the surface oil. Ground coffee is usable, but is very powerful stuff (as you seem to have read my notes). Check out my GF merriment as well, I used much less and it is still very noticeable. I used French Roast Starbucks.

I assume that different coffees will have different effects, but I am trying to get the amount dialed in before I try different types. My advice is to guess way low and add more if it isn't enough. I did the opposite.
 
Grain list: I think oats have to be mashed, or else you will get a ton of starches. The rest can probably be steeped so long as they are uncracked.

I always crack all the grains I have roasted and used for steeping. I tried an experiment with the black rice that I roasted and found that I got more color when I cracked them versus when I didn't. More surface area maybe? The only real difference I noticed before I started cracking the grains, is that I sometimes get more sediment than I usually do.
 
I always crack all the grains I have roasted and used for steeping. I tried an experiment with the black rice that I roasted and found that I got more color when I cracked them versus when I didn't. More surface area maybe? The only real difference I noticed before I started cracking the grains, is that I sometimes get more sediment than I usually do.

The color might be imparted quicker, but the end result should be the same unless there is something dark inside the grain. The real problem I see with cracking non-mashed grains is the release of a bunch of starches that are not fermentable. In small amounts, you may not notice, but it would probably cloud up your beer and raise your FG, moreso the more grain you do it with.
 
That helps a ton. I couldn't seem to come up with the terminology of "steeping." Once given, a whole lot was found. I suppose this means that I could germinate and dry and roast, without having to actually go through mashing to give some results that perhaps wouldn't be as detrimental as steeping with unmalted grains. (It'll be a few days while I read through everything).

As for coffee, while I'm very interested in the results, I think you're right. While the same amounts of different varieties and blends of coffee may be different at the single dialed in level, I don't think it would affect the flavor to such a degree that there would be much varience in amount needed. I think we agree that it somehow needs to be cold brewed, or have the oils removed.
 
I used 2 oz of the roasted whole oats and didn't really see too great a color change, compared to either my first or second gallon. However, I may be comparing it to the batch where I had added a touch of molasses which caused a deeper color.

.3 oz Columbus hops (60 min)
2 oz roasted oats (45 min) to find out what happens
1.47 lbs Sorghum syrup.
Lactose (I have it written down how much somewhere, but not with me) for sweetness.
English Ale Yeast

How it comes out in the primary will determine if I want to try adding any cocoa nibs and/or vanilla & coffee to the secondary for flavor and color.

While the toasted oats didn't seem to cause any significant effect I guess I'll find out later. It does seem that I can sprout or malt them before roasting if necessary.
 
After a taste test, I really didn't get anything noticible from the chocolate nibs, which surprised me. I did taste a tiny sample of the chocolate vodka before it went in which tasted pretty good, so I may up the nibs. I didn't notice anything good or bad from the oats, so if I ever understand mashing/partial mashing, I'll try that. If I'm possibly understanding anything, I think it's that alpha amalayse will mostly leave a fuller bodied, sweeter beer from unconvertable sugars, while the elusive beta makes it drier. If that's correct.
I added a full 8 ounce of a medium roast, cold brewed coffee (Which particular variety, I can't recall at the moment). And that flavor came through, but surprisingly, not heavily at all. I was rather concerned about the coffee originally.


I've also noticed that my notes have not been specifying between using Sorghum syrups. I've actually found that I've been mixing up the Sorghum Syrup 45DE High Maltose, and the Sorghum Syrup 60DE that my LHBS has been offering. We think it's just been one of those items that has been there for a while and only a few people are using it. They think I'm pretty much the main person.

From Briess's website, I am having trouble seeing what the difference is. Does it mean that it was done at a higher conversion, and that there is more resulting fermentable sugars which will wind up giving less body?
 
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