100% brett cider

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levifunk

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I'm thinking about doing a panel of 100% brett fermented ciders. A few single strains, a few multiple strains, and a few of both with lacto/pedio added.

Here is the list of fermentations I came up with:
1.) 100% Brett B
2.) 100% Brett C
3.) 100% Brett L
4.) 100% Brett Drie
5.) Brett B,C,L
6.) 100% Brett B & LAB
7.) 100% Brett C & LAB
8.) 100% Brett L & LAB
9.) 100% Brett Drie & LAB
10.)Brett B,C,L & LAB

("LAB" is Lactic Acid Bacteria, which is the lacto/pedio)

Let me know if you've done one of these and the results.
Any of these sound particularly exciting?
Any of them sound like trouble?
Any other fermentation ideas?
 
Brett is a very weak fermenter, it can have a big sensory effect when it is only a small part of the total yeast population. I thought in beer it is only used as a secondary fermenter of unfermented sugars. If you only pitch brett there is a good chance wild yeast will take over the ferment, which is possibly a good thing. Same thing goes for LAB.
 
Brett is a very weak fermenter, it can have a big sensory effect when it is only a small part of the total yeast population. I thought in beer it is only used as a secondary fermenter of unfermented sugars. If you only pitch brett there is a good chance wild yeast will take over the ferment, which is possibly a good thing. Same thing goes for LAB.

You need to look into Crooked Stave and www.brettanomycesproject.com
 
Very ambitious! No real advice, but I'm looking forward to hearing about your results.

I've got an upcoming trial with Brett too, but nothing so studious.
 
WLP 644 Brettanomyces Bruxellensis Trois or Brett Trois

Had a couple beers 100% fermented with this recently and the results were very nice. Had a single hop (Columbus) IPA that was done with the Brett Trois and is was outstanding. Smooth and clean, just a little dry and just a touch of fruitiness. I am not sure how it would do in a cider but I would not mind finding out.
 
That brettanomyces project was done under lab conditions, and with beer not cider. The guy admits that even under those conditions brett was weaker than brewers yeast. A pH of nearly 5 is a lot different to cider. When the pH gets lower the brett will struggle even more. I'm not saying don't use brett, ferments with natural yeast are usually pretty good.
 
That brettanomyces project was done under lab conditions, and with beer not cider. The guy admits that even under those conditions brett was weaker than brewers yeast. A pH of nearly 5 is a lot different to cider. When the pH gets lower the brett will struggle even more. I'm not saying don't use brett, ferments with natural yeast are usually pretty good.

No. Given that brett is continually working in Lambics as they age (and have already dropped pH level), I don't buy that brett will struggle in cider due to pH. Chad Yakobson says that brett is slower to start and therefor requires a larger pitch, but I don't remember ever hearing that brett is weaker, and I think once it takes off it ferments faster than saccharo. If anything, brett is far less finicky than saccharo. And brett will eat ANY sugar available, where saccharo only eats simple sugars.

Dropping brett into cider will be child's play fermentation for it. All simple sugars, it will eat it dry in no time.
 
Well I would equate slower with weaker. Wyeast say "The lactic acid cultures and the Brettanomyces cultures are both slow growing cultures that have complex nutritional requirements which makes growing and maintaining the cultures problematic. It is extremely important that brewers using these cultures understand that the beer will take 1 to 2 years to develop the desired characteristics."
You are using a culture meant for beer and expecting to get the same results for cider, a very different medium. I call that wishful thinking, or more accurately magical thinking. Just because you want it to happen doesn't mean it will happen. That's not to say you won't get a decent cider if you are using good juice.
 
Slow growing does not equate to slow fermentation. Growth refers to the rate the cells multiply. This is why higher pitches are recommended for 100% brett. Again, read up on brettanomyces project and other presentations from Chad Yakobson....a lot of good info. There are two here: http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.com/2011/12/two-great-presentations-on-sourslambics.html

Your copied statement from Wyeast is from their Lambic brewing section....which is very different than 100% brett fermentation.

I have no expectations. I think the wide panel I've chosen would have shown you this is obviously an experiment. Further hint would be me coming and asking if anyone has had good/bad experience with any of these strains in cider. I also do not expect to get the same flavor profiles from a strain of brett in cider as one would get in beer. However, I would be surprised if there weren't similarities. This is not "magical" thinking.
 
http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.com/2011/12/two-great-presentations-on-sourslambics.html

Your copied statement from Wyeast is from their Lambic brewing section....which is very different than 100% brett fermentation.

When I pitch a saccohromyces culture into cider I have no expectation that I will get a 100% sac ferment. Even though sac has been selected for strong fermentations in wine and cider I know there will be other wild yeasts there, but the sac will dominate, because that is what it is selected for. If you pitch a brett culture, it hasn't been selected for cider at all, and you have no way of knowing how it will perform. The wild yeasts will be able to establish and consume much of the sugar, the brett may establish well or maybe not. You won't know what population of brett you are inoculating with, and you won't know how well it multiplies. The only conclusion you will be able to reach is whether you made a good cider or not. Any variation between batches may be due to the brett cultures, or maybe the wild yeasts which get established.
 
Cultured, commercial strains of brett, pitched at appropriate levels will ALWAYS out compete any wild yeast from the apple skins that find their way in. Commercial strains are trained to ferment, wild yeast is not yet. The effect of any wild yeast on a cider with pitched yeast is negligible. I will know the source of 99.9% of the fermentation. There will be obvious differences between the carboys due to the variations of brett strains. You really have no idea what you are talking about, and talking out of your ass. It blows my mind the amount of erroneous statements you've spouted so far....and you keep going.

Its odd that you are so against experimenting....which is all this is.
 
Go for it levi, I have always thought some guezes have a similar taste to cider (apple finish), I may pitch some dregs from some sours into my next cider and see how it goes. I can see this as a great experiment, I have only tried different sacc yeasts in my ciders and noticed some major differences, so I see no reason why this wouldnt be successful.

Really interested in the results.
 
Thanks. Everything I have heard from people who have pitched sour dregs, or pitched a lambic blend, into cider has been that the saccharo dominated. I think because the brett has a slower growth, and all the sugars in cider are simple, that the saccharo out competes the brett and ferments everything before the brett has a chance to play a significant role.

Currently I have a barrel full of cider where we pitched a wild saison culture. It has yet to show signs of brett, so the initial fermentation was almost exclusively saccharo, but I'm hoping the brett is able to develop some flavor during an aging period. More promising is the keeve experiment I have going where I hope to have created an environment where brett and saccharo can ferment in tandem.

With these 100% brett experiments, I am looking to eliminate the saccharo all together and thereby ensure that the brett is able to ferment the sugars without competition.
 
Yeah, i was worried about the fact that all the sugars are simple, been debating trying a graff and mashing in high to make the sugars less available for the sacc. I was thinking about a saison yeast too and fermenting really warm (once it warms up a bit out here) to see what it would do. Again I am concerned with the simple sugars getting consumed quickly by sacc and not leaving anything else for the short bus yeasts.
 
Cultured, commercial strains of brett, pitched at appropriate levels will ALWAYS out compete any wild yeast from the apple skins that find their way in. Commercial strains are trained to ferment, wild yeast is not yet. The effect of any wild yeast on a cider with pitched yeast is negligible. I will know the source of 99.9% of the fermentation. There will be obvious differences between the carboys due to the variations of brett strains. You really have no idea what you are talking about, and talking out of your ass. It blows my mind the amount of erroneous statements you've spouted so far....and you keep going.

Its odd that you are so against experimenting....which is all this is.

Good to see you have such a firm grasp of the principles of microbiology. You are using a yeast selected for secondary fermentation of beer to do a primary fermentation of cider, with no research to back you up, yet you are absolutely sure what will happen. If you can quote some peer reviewed research on primary fermentation of cider with brett, then it may mean something. What you are doing is just guesswork and magical thinking, not experimenting.
I am not saying you shouldn't do it, just that you shouldn't expect to draw useful conclusions.
 
Again....talking out of your ass. Brett is not "meant" for secondary fermentation. There is plenty of research to back that up....which is why I originally directed you to the phd dissertation on brett "Brettanomyces Project" and a proven brewery doing 100% brett fermentations; Crooked Stave. Also see Russian River's Sanctification. What I am doing is applying that knowledge to cider.....as an experiment....to see what each of these strains produce. This is not guesswork or magical thinking.

Seriously. Spend some time and listen to even 1 of Chad Yakobson's presentations I linked on the microbiology of Brettanomyces.
 
There is plenty of research to back that up....which is why I originally directed you to the phd dissertation on brett "Brettanomyces Project" and a proven brewery doing 100% brett fermentations;

Seriously. Spend some time and listen to even 1 of Chad Yakobson's presentations I linked on the microbiology of Brettanomyces.

One unpublished dissertation on beer for a masters degree doesn't count as peer reviewed research. You are in a cider forum, not beer.
Attending one presentation doesn't make you an expert.
 
One unpublished dissertation on beer for a masters degree doesn't count as peer reviewed research. You are in a cider forum, not beer.
Attending one presentation doesn't make you an expert.

Where is all the research to backup all your statements? You seem to know very little about Brettanomyces yet you have a firm belief that what you are saying is true. Wyeast and White Labs package it for secondary fermentation simply because they contain significantly less cells than their Saccharomyces packages. Anything can be a primary fermenter in large enough population.

Define a weak fermenter. Is a highly attenuative yeast considered weak? Brett is known for attenuating much more than sacch, granted it may take a little longer.

As far as the low pH of Cider, Brett actually attenuates more, and in a shorter period of time in a lower pH environment.

I would consider data from a dissertation to be more accurate than a dude named greg in a cider forum, not a beer forum.

If anything, I would think Brett would ferment cider much easier as it contains simple sugars. Maltose is a complex sugar, so it would make sense that Brett would take more time to ferment it, and less time to ferment Cider.
 
Odd pissing contest going on....

Anyway, sounds like an awesome experiment. I'd be very interested to see how this turns out. Brett in primary seems to be what barrel aging was like 2 years ago. The only 100% brett fermented beer I've ever had was so clean and didn't have any brett qualities I'm use to, so would be interesting to see what happens in Cider
 
Pretty standard as far as pissing contests go.

OP, do it. Please take meticulous notes.
 
I also recently started a batch if cider with Brett B to kinda see what would happen. I didn't realize til afterward that the population of yeast in the Wyeast packets areower for the Brett strains. My question is this. If the population is low, it should still work, right? I have a lot of experience making naturally fermented breads and yogurts and one completely ambient cider. They start with low "pitches" as it were. The Brett should take eventually, right? It seems like it should. Guess we will find out.
 
Update on my 100% Brett b cider. I pitched on the 12th of this month and as of yesterday, at a constant 63 degrees f, nothing. I aerated last night, then the temp hit the 40's in chi town today, and tonight there is some serious activity and a little pellicle on top. It's doing it!!
 
Picked_Pepper, I don't have the level of membership that allows me to post pics. But i would if i could! Still running the free version. Levi, the cider was 55 F when I pitched which I'm sure slowed things down a bit. I used one packet of wyeast bruxB in three gallons of juice.
It's really foamy today.
 
image-1440398950.jpg

Brett brux one week in last night was less foamy so you could see the skin. Airlock not bubbling yet, but the room smells crazy like apples.
 
image-2698900090.jpg

And these are the twins. Fraternal twins. On the left is a 5 gallon batch of champagne yeast pitch, and the right is 3 gallons of the Brett. Same juice.
 
Also thanks for making me do that. I just assumed I couldn't cuz I don't pay for my membership. Guess unread the forum rules wrong. Ha! Anyhoo, there ya go.

On a side note, my lady bought me a bottle of 2010 vintage prima brut cidre. Drank it last night and I was floored. These guys are making killer dry champaignoise ciders right in the suburbs of Chicago.
 
Where is all the research to backup all your statements? You seem to know very little about Brettanomyces yet you have a firm belief that what you are saying is true. Wyeast and White Labs package it for secondary fermentation simply because they contain significantly less cells than their Saccharomyces packages. Anything can be a primary fermenter in large enough population.

Define a weak fermenter. Is a highly attenuative yeast considered weak? Brett is known for attenuating much more than sacch, granted it may take a little longer.

As far as the low pH of Cider, Brett actually attenuates more, and in a shorter period of time in a lower pH environment.

I would consider data from a dissertation to be more accurate than a dude named greg in a cider forum, not a beer forum.

If anything, I would think Brett would ferment cider much easier as it contains simple sugars. Maltose is a complex sugar, so it would make sense that Brett would take more time to ferment it, and less time to ferment Cider.

First I agree completely that I don't know a lot about brett, that is the whole point. I have some training in wine science but I have no idea what happens pitching brett into cider, the original poster knows even less. I do know that wild yeast will get into every cider unless produced under sterile lab conditions, and I suspect wild yeast will do the fermentation in this case.
"Where is all the research to backup all your statements? " Why do I need research to back up my assertion that there is no research to back up using brett in cider or wine?
"Anything can be a primary fermenter in large enough population." That is meaningless if you have no idea what the population is.
"I would consider data from a dissertation to be more accurate than a dude named greg in a cider forum, not a beer forum." Yes, always go for the insults when you are trying to score points.
 
First I agree completely that I don't know a lot about brett, that is the whole point. I have some training in wine science but I have no idea what happens pitching brett into cider, the original poster knows even less.

I have read up quite extensively concerning brett in beer. I have 28 barrels of lambic fermenting/aging for commercial production. I have 2 barrels of cider fermenting; one naturally, one with a wild saison yeast blend. I have a keeved cider fermenting with lambic yeast.

When it comes to theorizing brett's activity in cider, I might have a better grasp on thing than you.

"Where is all the research to backup all your statements? " Why do I need research to back up my assertion that there is no research to back up using brett in cider or wine?

Because there is plenty of research and experience regarding the nature of brett in beer and you are making statements that contradict the known characteristics of brett. If you are to contradict these things, you better at least have personal experience or research to back it up.
 
When it comes to theorizing brett's activity in cider, I might have a better grasp on thing than you.

Your statement that you will have a 100% brett ferment shows you have no understanding of microbiology at all. Unless you are using a sterile lab you never have 100% of any yeast or bacteria, there is ALWAYS a mixed population. Pretty much every wine ever made has a small brett population, not usually enough to cause problems. I have a degree in viticulture and worked for 6 years in a winery, I have helped ferment thousands of litres of wine and do about 500 litres of cider from my own fruit every year for the last 5 years, so I have reasonable experience.
 
Well, outside of your lab, and in the real world, "100% brett fermentation" means all the yeast that was pitched, is brett. Which, should you be such a steward of microbiology, you would understand that that would be the source of 99.9% of all fermentation.
 
levifunk said:
Well, outside of your lab, and in the real world, "100% brett fermentation" means all the yeast that was pitched, is brett. Which, should you be such a steward of microbiology, you would understand that that would be the source of 99.9% of all fermentation.

This. To dogmatically insist that someone doesn't know what they're doing because they stated 100% Brett, is being needlessly obstinate. 100% is a commonly accepted phrase. Can we say that our diet today was 100% free of fecal matter? Probably not, unless we live in a hepafiltered bubble.
 
Well, outside of your lab, and in the real world, "100% brett fermentation" means all the yeast that was pitched, is brett. Which, should you be such a steward of microbiology, you would understand that that would be the source of 99.9% of all fermentation.

See this is our point of difference. You think you know what is going on in the cider when you pitch brett (without any evidence except assertions you make). I think that the percentage of brett in the fermenting cider could be anything from zero to 100, probably closer to zero (but I don't know that). I don't say what will happen except I doubt that brett will have a strong part of the fermentation, because no-one has ever documented this as far as I am aware. (and experiments with sterile beer wort don't count). So I will leave you to your "experiment".
 
View attachment 103259

Ok. So this keeps happening. Any thoughts?

Nice active ferment!

You should have no problem removing the airlock and replacing with foil.

When the activity slows, replace the airlock.

As long as there is positive pressure, you'll won't have any problems with contamination.

But be sure to get the airlock back on when the furious activity slows.
 
Cool. I actually replaced the airlock with a tube and mason jar if water system and everything is ok. It's a little farty, but bloop bloop blooping away nicely. I moved it to a place that I closer to 63 degrees and its going strong. It's been fermenting for a week now without slowing down.
 
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