Limitations of the "Kal" setup?

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flanneltrees804

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I am planning a build in the near future, going all electric, single tier using keggles for now and maybe upgrading to larger pots down the road. I was looking through different control panel builds and I think I am going to go with Kal's control panel because I really want to shoot for repeatability in my batches but do not want to go fully automated, I can't afford that stuff and I like being more involved.

As I looked through all the control panels though I couldn't help but wonder what the advantages/disadvantages of Kal's setup are. I don't plan on doing anything crazy with my brewing, I don't need to run the BK and HLT at the same time, I do pretty basic stuff. I'm sure Kal will chime in here but what about all of you others with different systems. What do you wish you had? What do you think Kal's panel has that is totally unnecessary/overkill? I have the money for a Kal clone of sorts but if I don't need to spend the money then I won't.
 
In my opinion that's pretty much primo. You aren't going to run into too many limitations, especially since you aren't worried about double-batches. The HERMS setup will give you great repeatability.

But whether or not you need that is a call you need to make. What exactly do you want to do with a new brewing setup. What would you like to spend, and what's your limit?
 
Agreed, kals system is awesome. The only thing that I changed in my build, is I took the volt/amp meters out, which immediately gave me more room in the control panel. I also removed the temp alarms from the pid and added float switches for water level, just so I don't loose track and get the water level below the element, soviet did have to add a 12v din rail mount transformer. The only other thing I changed was the outlets, could not see me paying that much for some outlets, so I got cheaper excesses outlets on eBay, but just put regular l6-30 outlets in the bottom, but thanks again to kal for sharing!!!!
 
My plan for the system is mostly to have fun but I am also seriously considering opening a brewery in the next 3-5 years and figured this would be a great investment as a pilot system for developing recipes. My budget is $6,000 but only $4,500 is going to the actual system, the other is for grain storage, milling station, fermentation, yeast handling and other general space build-out.

The most involved/complicated my brewing will get is protein rests and I don't plan on doing them often. A simple single infusion is what I'll use 99% of the time. Thanks for the input, if you have more please send it my way!
 
You should upgrade to DIN Rails in whatever setup you choose. Kals system is designed well, however the control panel build is a bit dated with all the terminal blocks from the 70's.
 
Question. If I read it correctly, Kal's system only allows one element at a time. So when you start your brew day, you get your strike water ready, but in which tank? And in order for the HERMS to work, you need your sparge water at the same temp. So how are you heating up both with only one element?
 
I heat my strike water in my HLT, but I usually heat 12 gallons or so. After I mash in, I let it set for 10 mins or so, and then I recirculate through the herms that is in my HLT. Therefore you only need one element at a time. There is no element in the mash tun, just in the HLT and BK. hope I explained it somewhat, it worked in my head anyway!! :mug:
 
Question. If I read it correctly, Kal's system only allows one element at a time. So when you start your brew day, you get your strike water ready, but in which tank? And in order for the HERMS to work, you need your sparge water at the same temp. So how are you heating up both with only one element?

I don't have a Kal clone, but I do have an e-brewery with a HERMS that only runs 1 element at a time. I heat my strike and sparge water (minus 1 gal - I'll explain in a minute) at the same time in the HLT. It doesn't take long with a 5500 watt element. My strike water is usually around 175 (I don't pre-heat my MLT, so my strike water is hotter to heat the MLT cooler).

I'll pump the strike water into the MLT, and when the water matches the target strike temp from Beersmith I'll dough in. Then I'll add in the last gallon of water into the HLT to drop it near the temp I need to re-circulate my mash thru the HERMS to maintain mash temps. I'll recirculate through the HERMS for the full mash. At the end of the mash I'll heat up the HLT to 172ish which brings my mash to mashout temps and also heats my HLT water to sparge temps. Then I'll start sparging, and when the wort level is comfortably above the kettle element I'll switch power over to the kettle to bring it slowly to a boil. I usually set the kettle to about 70% and it's very close to a boil by the time my sparge is finished.

Hope that makes sense - I've had a few homebrews.
 
I do almost the same, but I will heat like I said 10 or 12 gallons, depending on calculations I what I and brewing, grain bill, etc, after I mash in, I'll add some cold water also til I hit my herms temp, which is usually 4 degrees higher than what I want the mash temp at, in the end, this gives me extra water to heat back up and use to flush my lines, chiller and what not. But as sime as it seems, I never thought about cranking up the bk when the water level is above the element, or in my case, when the alarm has stopped. I have float alarms in my HLT and BK that at set to go off when the water level is within 3" of the element, so if I have my alarm turned "on", when it shuts off, I could fire the element at 70% like you said and start heating/boiling faster. Thanks! :cheers:
 
Question. If I read it correctly, Kal's system only allows one element at a time. So when you start your brew day, you get your strike water ready, but in which tank? And in order for the HERMS to work, you need your sparge water at the same temp. So how are you heating up both with only one element?

He limited it to 1 element at a time to keep it on a 30 amp circuit. If you put it on a 50 amp circuit and wired it with the right gauge wire, you could stay in code with two 4500 elements running at the same time, they would draw 37.5 amps on a 240 volt circuit.

I've actually got mine setup where I can add another element in both the hlt and boil, but will only be able to run 1 side at a time. When I go nano, I won't have to upgrade my panel.
 
I have a Kal-on-roids system I built last summer. As far as the control panel goes, I'd recommend going 50 amps. I'd also recommend using DIN rails and DIN mounted parts. My terminal block are all modular DIN blocks and 50amp rated. Using DIN contactors will save quite a bit of space as well. Even though I installed the voltage and amperage meters, I would probably leave them off if I built it again. Neither should be a mystery since the amp rating of all components is known. They just give the panel the bling factor. If you decide to use them, find a better DIN mount power supply than the transformer/AC-DC converter as they take up way too much precious internal panel space. I've seen them on automationdirect.com.
 
I have a Kal-on-roids system I built last summer. As far as the control panel goes, I'd recommend going 50 amps. I'd also recommend using DIN rails and DIN mounted parts. My terminal block are all modular DIN blocks and 50amp rated. Using DIN contactors will save quite a bit of space as well. Even though I installed the voltage and amperage meters, I would probably leave them off if I built it again. Neither should be a mystery since the amp rating of all components is known. They just give the panel the bling factor. If you decide to use them, find a better DIN mount power supply than the transformer/AC-DC converter as they take up way too much precious internal panel space. I've seen them on automationdirect.com.

I am no EE and don't pretend like I know anything about wiring. Combine my lack of knowledge with the goal of having this system brewing beer in about 6 weeks means I don't have much time to piece together a panel from scratch. I was planning on buying Kal's panel from the website and putting it together myself.

I love the idea of DIN rails and I don't need to the amp and volt readouts but unless I want to take the time piecing my own together and ordering all the stuff, I'll just do the Kal thing.

Also, we rent the space we are going to be brewing in and we only have 50A total coming in so hooking up a 50A system isn't really beneficial although I would like to have it for the down the road. But like I said... I want this thing to go together nice and fast.

If someone has a way to get din rails on this panel quickly and inexpensively then I'm all ears but if I have to re-design the whole panel then I'm out for now, I don't have the time or know how.
 
One other question, are there any issues with hot spots in the HLT during the mash? My understanding of the HERMS system as Kal has it is that the HLT PID controls the temp of the water that the wort is running through during the mash and that the mash PID controls nothing, it only provides a temperature reading. I also understand that the mash PID reads the wort temp as it's coming out of the mash tun and there is no reading for the wort going from the HERMS back into the mash.

I've read a few posts that say they keep their HLT set 1 degree higher than the mash so that it keeps the right temp, should I expect this type of situation where I need to learn the system and think a little bit? Would adding a whirlpool to the HLT help keep temps similar between the HTL and mash? What about wrapping the mash tun in insulation?
 
From what I understand, the water is always in motion, so a whirlpool is not needed. The temperature of the water right next to the element should be the same as the water at the top of the kettle.

Also, I'd assume that each setup will be a little different, and it might also depend of the environment. If it's the middle of winter, you might need to set it one degree higher, if it's summer, it might be unnecessary.
 
I've read a few posts that say they keep their HLT set 1 degree higher than the mash so that it keeps the right temp, should I expect this type of situation where I need to learn the system and think a little bit? Would adding a whirlpool to the HLT help keep temps similar between the HTL and mash? What about wrapping the mash tun in insulation?

Yes, unfortunately for many people on HBT, this does require a little bit of thinking.

All kidding aside, I set the HLT a few degrees higher than the desired mash temperature, and I continuously recirculate the HLT to ensure a consistent temperature throughout the HLT. Insulating the MLT is certainly worth considering, esp. if you plan to stay electric-only.
 
One other question, are there any issues with hot spots in the HLT during the mash? My understanding of the HERMS system as Kal has it is that the HLT PID controls the temp of the water that the wort is running through during the mash and that the mash PID controls nothing, it only provides a temperature reading. I also understand that the mash PID reads the wort temp as it's coming out of the mash tun and there is no reading for the wort going from the HERMS back into the mash.

The water will be hotter near the element. If you keep the water recirculating somehow, the temp will be consistent enough.

You understand the the mash PID correctly. There is a little thinking necessary, and in Kal's (or any HERMS design) the mash temp is ultimately controlled by the HLT temp. Wherever your mash measurement point is, you would adjust the HLT temp to move the mash temp. If you want to add a HERMS mash out temp reading, check out the link in my signature.
 
Thanks for all the responses, keeping an eye on mash temps and adjusting the HLT accordingly isn't an issue, I just wanted to see if this was normal and to be expected. I am going to be brewing indoors and the temp should hover around 75 in the summer and 65 in the winter. I have no pans to insulate the mash tun but I might down the line if I think it will help.
 
I built the 50A "back-to-back" system. I bought the kit from spike innovations. I will have my brewery operational next week once all my valves get here. As I see it, I may never actually brew back-to-back batches, but in the winter i will at least be able to heat some cleaning water in the HLT wen I am boiling off my wort. However, on a 50A B2B system you have to use 4500 Watt elements. That will add just a few minutes to your boil times... Not really a big deal though.
 
Im about 1/3 of the way through wiring my kal build. I lucked out when I bought my enclosure because they sent me a 20x20x8 after the recommended one was out of stock. I feel like the wiring would have been a real challenge in anything smaller.

I also started a thread to document some of my mistakes so that might be helpful if you go the Kal route.
 
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