Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

Williams 728
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What do you guys think about pressure fermentations? Time for a poll.

  • I've done it and I liked it just fine!

  • I've done it, nothing wrong with it, but prefer normal fermentation techniques.

  • I've done it, hate it, and never will do it again!

  • I've never done it, but it is on my list!

  • I've never done anything. I only brew beer in my mind.

Results are only viewable after voting.
Those valves are probably the coolest thing ever but I still like the cheapies. I bought two of the higher pressure ones and one of the lighter pressure one, and have been using these for about a year and a half now with no issues. I was poo-pooed for getting them but I still like them because they are simple don't get seem to get clogged and can be easily cleaned.

The first is rated as adjustable for 0-20 psi I find it really only holds at about 18 psi or lower, which is great for transfer from keg to corny keg as it has a finer adjustment, it is McMaster-Car #48935K25 found on this page:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/119/488/=lyrxni
I have been having better luck keeping my final fermentation below 18 anyways. I can always connect the corny's to a higher psi later. (Addendum: After thinking about it for a while I remembered why I use this one for transfer to corny kegs rather than for fermenting. It tends to leak pressure slowly over a period of time. Not important during transfer or initial fermentation but a problem during the last phase of fermenting.)

The second and the one I bought first and still use most using the yellow or weakest spring which is rated at 25 - 50 psi, but I find easily adjustable down to about 2-3 psi and up, is a bit sensitive to adjust, but easy if your tolerance is within + or _ 1 psi, which for me is way close enough. Again simple contruction easy to clean, uses the same body as the first but has a stronger spring and a silicone and brass insert instead of a spring and ball bearing.
This is McMaster-Carr # 50265K23 found on this page:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#brass-relief-valves/=lys25o

If you are on a budget like I am, I love the prices of these, I can buy two or three, and don't have to interchange my setups so much. I would recommend them to anyone who can't taste the difference between a beer that was mostly fermented at 9 psi or 11 psi. Yes they are brass but the beer shouldn't be touching them anyway.
My two cents.

IMG_20130320_154037 (Large).jpg


IMG_20130320_135554 (Large).jpg
 
I'll probably purchase 2 of the 25-50 PSI versions you mentioned above since you can adjust them to 2-3PSI. It appears two of my other ones I got from grainger for $30 a piece are shot.

Thanks for the tip.

How are people using fining agents like gelatin when fermenting under pressure? Are you putting the gelatin in your serving kegs and just accepting that your first few draws will pull the crap that gelatin settles out?
 
-MG- said:
I'll probably purchase 2 of the 25-50 PSI versions you mentioned above since you can adjust them to 2-3PSI. It appears two of my other ones I got from grainger for $30 a piece are shot.


At the lower end it takes a gentle hand to adjust it just right, and don't over-tighten the valve or you will cut into the soft pad, making it harder to adjust later.

Good luck with these, I think you will like them once you get used to them.

I have been thinking about using geletin for some of my less clear beers but have thought myself out of it again. :mug: I'd be interested in the reply as well.
Click to expand...
 
Haven't read the whole thread but has anyone cut the gas tube shorter. You could probably cut close to 3/4" off and still use it as normal. Might save a little bit of blow off
 
I'm interested to try this method in Corny kegs.
How do you take gravity reading?

I assume that you can attach picnic tap on liquid side, but since it goes to bottom it will mostly pick yeast and trub material...
 
diS said:
I'm interested to try this method in Corny kegs.
How do you take gravity reading?

I assume that you can attach picnic tap on liquid side, but since it goes to bottom it will mostly pick yeast and trub material...
Click to expand...

I leave a block of wood (or a wedge would work) under the side of the Corny where the long dip tube is (my fermenting Corny has the tube come down the side, not the center). That gets the tube out of the worst of the muck. I still have to do a couple pulls on the Picnic Tap to clear things, but it's usually a lot less than when I leave the Corny flat. Results vary by the type of yeast and how much trub is in there, of course.
 
Invest in a refractometer. You still get trub/yeast but you need only a few drops, and you don' have to wait for temp or CO2. Also you won't know how you did without one on the brew side once you start using it. I have been loving mine.
 
Kirbuno said:
Invest in a refractometer. You still get trub/yeast but you need only a few drops, and you don' have to wait for temp or CO2. Also you won't know how you did without one on the brew side once you start using it. I have been loving mine.
Click to expand...

love mine too.. there are plenty of calcs out there that will adjust for fermented beer as well.
 
I don't like refractometer for FG reading since it always needs different correction factor (at least my cheap e-bay refractometer).
I'll try with picnic tap and degassing method, thanks.
 
Does pressure relief valve has to be adjustable?
Can I mount relief valve with fixed pressure (eg 30 psi)?

I am thinking to put blow off tube for 1st 2 or 3 days so pressure don't impact yeast growth, and then put pressure relief valve for carbonation?
 
diS said:
Does pressure relief valve has to be adjustable?
Can I mount relief valve with fixed pressure (eg 30 psi)?

I am thinking to put blow off tube for 1st 2 or 3 days so pressure don't impact yeast growth, and then put pressure relief valve for carbonation?
Click to expand...

Some people have been using this method. I can't find the exact setup they were doing. However, I believe they were waiting until a few points left to go then sealing it up like you are talking about.

You would get the benefits of the carbing part, however, it wouldn't be a closed system fermentation necessarily.
 
1MadScientist said:
diS, Yes, that's how you do it. I first draw a little out into a jar (big one), then draw my sample into a small jar. You need to de-gas the sample by putting a lid on it and shaking it. I usually wait several hours, as I am not in a hurry.


2/20/2013 by Mad Scientist Brewhaus, on Flickr


2/20/2013 by Mad Scientist Brewhaus, on Flickr
Click to expand...

Just saw this now.

I would HIGHLY recommend putting a worm driven clamp on the snake tap. If you get enough pressure built up, it will blow off.

I lost a very good stout this way.
 
How do you aerate and pitch the yeast in several kegs?
I am thinking to siphon wort in carboy, aerate, pitch and fill the kegs...

What about fermentation schedule, when do you cold crash?
 
diS said:
How do you aerate and pitch the yeast in several kegs?
I am thinking to siphon wort in carboy, aerate, pitch and fill the kegs...
Click to expand...

One of my favorite things about fermenting in sealed corny kegs is ohw easy it is to oxygenate. I use the $7 oxygen canisters bernzomatic sells, hook them up to the liquid post of my corny and just run pure oxygen through until I hit a couple of PSI. This seals the lid and makes sure I have plenty of O2.
 
Sounds easy and efficient, have to try it.
What about determining yeast volume to each keg, you use graduated jar/cylinder...?
 
diS said:
Sounds easy and efficient, have to try it.
What about determining yeast volume to each keg, you use graduated jar/cylinder...?
Click to expand...

I brew five gallons usually, so there's no need to divide anything up. It all goes in one keg. If I were doing it, though, I'd probably just eyeball it, though certainly that's not going to be precise. If I wanted to be more careful, I'd either split into graduated jars or just make two starters side-by-side.
 
I have been reading this thread for several weeks now, and i very interested in getting started! I have some basic questions that i was unable to answer by just reading most this thread.

1. Will a sanke keg work for 5 gallon batches? How about 10?

2. How high does your trub usually get for 5 or 10 gallon batches (using a sanke)? Does the dip tube need to be cut in order to only drain the beer?

3. When using the corny method, is it absolutely necessary to put that gallon or so of water to the second keg?

Thank you all and wort monger for exploring this technique and sharing your methods!
 
MG said:
You would get the benefits of the carbing part, however, it wouldn't be a closed system fermentation necessarily.
Click to expand...
Not true, the batch is closed up and under constant positive pressure at the point he's wanting to start carbonating. This is why I love this technique, so many different ways to skin this cat and call it the same thing.
 
1- snake 1/2 barrel keg is 15.5 gal. Yes to 5,10 gal batch


3- water in second keg not needed. It is a blowoff tank
 
Cacaman, the reason for any fermentor larger than your batch will work is because a blanket of C02 lays on top of the beer as soon as it starts being produced. This allows the fermentor to fill up and purge the 02 out of the fermentor no matter the size. There is more than enough C02 produced during fermentation for a 5 gallon batch to fill and purge a 15.5 gallon Sanke fermentor. The only thing I can't say with 100% certainty is, if allowed to none pressure ferment (when the time came to carbonate with this technique), would there be too much extra room to fill to pressure before the beer attenuated? That would be my only worry.
 
MalFet said:
One of my favorite things about fermenting in sealed corny kegs is ohw easy it is to oxygenate. I use the $7 oxygen canisters bernzomatic sells, hook them up to the liquid post of my corny and just run pure oxygen through until I hit a couple of PSI. This seals the lid and makes sure I have plenty of O2.
Click to expand...

Love this technique added to my current system. Works very well and I see results fast on the gauge instead of having to wait.
 
WortMonger said:
Love this technique added to my current system. Works very well and I see results fast on the gauge instead of having to wait.
Click to expand...

Hmmm never thought of that. I guess the wort would absorb the O2 as well as it does CO2. I have a brewhemoth on the way, I wonder if 10gal of headspace would require too much O2? I can't really brew more than 12 gallons with current setup.
 
Seems that oxygenation is another advantage of this method.
I've read that simple purging head space with O2 and shaking it for few seconds will result in more dissolved oxygen than oxygenation with aeration stone, also less amount of oxygen is needed.

This makes sense to me since by using a stone certain amount of oxygen is dissolved in solution and the rest of it is simply released in the air.
In pressurized keg, oxygen that does not go into solution will fill the headspace and after shaking it will eventually dissolve in wort.
I am just thinking out loud but I believe that we could use spunding valve and gauge as indicator of pressurized oxygen in keg to get predictable and consistent oxygenation (with constant head space).
 
diS said:
I am just thinking out loud but I believe that we could use spunding valve and gauge as indicator of pressurized oxygen in keg to get predictable and consistent oxygenation (with constant head space).
Click to expand...

That is exactly what I did when I tried this out. I had everything rigged for fermentation and put my O2 on the beer port until my spunding valve read 10psi. Then loosened the spunding valve until I heard a hiss. I didn't even shake my keg because it was 15 gallons in a chest freezer.
 
Just fyi, here is how we clean our sankey's.
Cheers,
Tom
 
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pickles said:
Hmmm never thought of that. I guess the wort would absorb the O2 as well as it does CO2. I have a brewhemoth on the way, I wonder if 10gal of headspace would require too much O2? I can't really brew more than 12 gallons with current setup.
Click to expand...

10 gallons of pressurized headspace would be a lot of oxygen. By my rough numbers, you'd need nearly half a Bernzomatic tank to get your headspace up to just 5psi. If I were in your shoes, I'd just turn it on very low and let it bubble up through from the bottom for a few minutes.
 
diS said:
Seems that oxygenation is another advantage of this method.
I've read that simple purging head space with O2 and shaking it for few seconds will result in more dissolved oxygen than oxygenation with aeration stone, also less amount of oxygen is needed.

This makes sense to me since by using a stone certain amount of oxygen is dissolved in solution and the rest of it is simply released in the air.
In pressurized keg, oxygen that does not go into solution will fill the headspace and after shaking it will eventually dissolve in wort.
I am just thinking out loud but I believe that we could use spunding valve and gauge as indicator of pressurized oxygen in keg to get predictable and consistent oxygenation (with constant head space).
Click to expand...

I started a thread about this a while back in the brewing science subforum. This is a convenient and reliable way to dose oxygen more precisely. :mug:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/oxygenation-under-pressure-306783/
 
E-Mursed said:
Can someone link to where the Benzomatic O2 tanks can be found and purchased?
Click to expand...

I don't think USPS will ship them, but they're available at many hardware stores around where I live. Certainly the box stores have always had them when I've looked. Failing that, any kind of welding supply shop should sell them.
 
Found them listed at Lowes.

Do you have a simple "rule of thumb" volume to put in a cornie keg? I read your thread, didn't understand much, but I read it. Should I use half a cylinder, more, less...?
 
E-Mursed said:
Found them listed at Lowes.

Do you have a simple "rule of thumb" volume to put in a cornie keg? I read your thread, didn't understand much, but I read it. Should I use half a cylinder, more, less...?
Click to expand...

Way, way, way less than half a cylinder.

For a five gallon batch, you need about a quarter of a gram of oxygen dissolved. I fill up my corny to about 19 liters and then fill the headspace to 3-4 psi. It's hard to track exactly how much of a cylinder that is, but we're talking dozens of batches per can.
 
Ok so I doubt I'll want to use 1/2 a bottle of O2 per batch. I think I'll just seal up the fermentor and run O2 through a stone for a minute or so. This should raise the internal pressure a bit which should work well. I usually wait a few days to "close" up the fermentor but it seems that those who have used the closed O2 process seal it up from the very beginning. Anyone see any adverse effects on fermentation because of this?
 
Ok...sounds like a simple process then.


I will be using a second cornie for blow-off, so it may take a little extra, but I'm still figuring it to be a nominal amount.

Will be instituting this into my process with my next round of brews between semesters.
 
E-Mursed said:
Ok...sounds like a simple process then.


I will be using a second cornie for blow-off, so it may take a little extra, but I'm still figuring it to be a nominal amount.

Will be instituting this into my process with my next round of brews between semesters.
Click to expand...

If you're using a 5 gallon corny for blow-off, you'll require vastly more oxygen.
 
When counter-pressure filling several kegs, how do you know the keg is full and beer is at safety distance form gas dip tube?
(My batches are 10 gal so I should use 3 corny's for fermentation and transfer them into 2 serving kegs)
 
diS said:
When counter-pressure filling several kegs, how do you know the keg is full and beer is at safety distance form gas dip tube?
(My batches are 10 gal so I should use 3 corny's for fermentation and transfer them into 2 serving kegs)
Click to expand...

if teh source keg is cold you'll see condensation form on the receiving kegs. if you setup an octopus to fill multiples, you'll get even amounts in each at the same time.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Nice setup, but I am thinking on keg2keg transfer... although it would be nice have sankey keg for this.
I'm not sure how well will condensation show level at normal flow rate, especially in winter.
 
diS said:
When counter-pressure filling several kegs, how do you know the keg is full and beer is at safety distance form gas dip tube?
(My batches are 10 gal so I should use 3 corny's for fermentation and transfer them into 2 serving kegs)
Click to expand...

I ferment in 2 and transfer to 2.

Your way, maybe by weight.
 

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