Shaking out Efficency issues - Grind Question

I am on my 7th batch ever, started with AG and each batch has improved thus far! Why not jump in with both feet?!

I am trying to shake out my efficiency issues as I only got about 55% efficiency on my last AG batch. At 70%, OG should have been 1.102, but only hit 1.080, 20 Brix, confirmed with my hydrometer.

I've improved my equipment to a 70 quart mash tun cooler, 40Q pot with burner, spot check Wort Brix with my calibrated refractometer and use the batch sparge method. I have proven the ability to use calculators to determine strke temps, mashing volume, sparge amount & temp and have been able to hit preboil volumes and other parameters.

I can never seem to hit my OG for 70% efficiency... what I'm thinking the problem is the grind I'm getting from my local shop is not fine enough. Of course, the 2 employees I've asked can't tell me what spacing their machine is set to, so my question is this --- If I run the crushed grains through the mill again, will it break up the larger pieces further? While the majority of what I spot checked appeared to be broken up, I was looking at the spent grain again while cleaning up my tun and noticed that quite a few pieces were cracked open but some were largely intact.

Thoughts and any other advice??

Running it through twice should help.

Did you check your conversion efficiency? Helps to diagnose if it's a conversion vs lautering issue.

You may also want to check your water chemistry to make sure you're in the ball park.

Also, efficiency often drops for larger beers.

I've had this problem even with smaller beers as well - I am aware of the inherent loss of efficiency as the gravity increases, which I'm expecting.

The one time I used grains from another shop, I think I did do better than I thought (it was before I started paying a lot of details to these things)

One calculator showed my first runnings should have been around 1.100 +- with proper conversion and I should have had an overall preboil OG of 1.79. Without my notes in front of me, the first runnings were around 15 Brix or 1.060. Second runnings were less, obviously, approximately 11 Brix.

With the issues I'm having I doubt water chemistry is making a big impact even though I don't have the report to substantiate that assertion, so I ould be dead wrong.

Recipe was:

Fermentables
Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
15 lb Pale 2-Row 37 1.8 75%
2 lb Maris Otter Pale 38 3.75 10%
1 lb Caramel / Crystal 20L 35 20 5%
1 lb Flaked Barley 32 2.2 5%
1 lb CaraMunich III 34 57 5%

Hops
Amount Variety Time AA Type Use
2 oz Simcoe 60 min 12.7 Leaf/Whole Boil
1 oz Citra 15 min 11 Leaf/Whole Boil
1 oz Columbus 5 min 15 Pellet Aroma

Can you briefly describe your process?

Issue has existed before as I said, but this time I did the following:

Strike - 162F
Mashed 6.25G (1.25Q/lb) @ 148-149F for 45 mins +-
Added 3-3.5Q of boiling water (which increased to 1.4Q/lb)
Mashed at 156-157F for another 25-30 mins
Set the grain bed by recirculating approx 1-1.5G
Gathered approximately 4-4.25G 1st runnings
Sparge with about 3G of 188F attempting to mashout sparge for 10 mins (fell short)
Batch Sparge sat at about 164 for 10 mins
Set the grain bed again
Gathered 2nd runnings

Had a spare gallon I wasn't comfortable boiling in main pot so I put on stove top to boil down. Boiled for 90 minutes. Added the spare G to the main pot before starting hop additions.

Cooled with wort chiller - whirlpooled - pitched with 1500+ml starter around 75F - fermenting at 70F

Have a solid 5G in my 6G carboy.

I appreciate the time and responses!

Process looks solid. Did you check the gravity of the 1st runnings? That's used to diagnose mash efficiency. Sounds like a conversion issue perhaps. Crush the snot out of it and see if that helps

Next batch will then have some double-grinding action!! From memory, first runnings were only about 15 Brix (1.060).

I figured this is the mostly likely cause as I've attempted to minimize the impact of everything else to this point. I agree, I feel my process is sound - if anyone has suggestions for further improvement, I'm all ears!

Here is my mash geometry currently:

If you want to test your water, try brewing a batch with store-bought spring water, RO water from one of those 25 cent per gallon machines, or using a Brita-type charcoal filter on your tap water. Even if you don't improve your efficiency, you might like the taste better. Double-crushing should help, or you could buy uncrushed grain and mill it yourself. A corona mill will only set you back 25-30 bucks, and if you can jump 10-20% in efficiency, should pay for itself in about three 1.102 batches.

Our water does taste good from the tap, but I tried using all spring water on a previous batch. I think it was my stout (my first batch with the new 40Q pot) and has been my most successful batch yet! I was waaay under in my efficency, but still came out around 5.5% and is damn tasty.

My water should be put to the test when I prime and bottle my Belgian which had an OG of 1.084 - now sitting at 1.007 if my refractometer conversion used to compensate for the ethanol is right. I will know for sure when I take a hydrometer reading before priming.

If you're doing all grain, you may want to pick up a mill at some point. They've gotten much more affordable (austin homebrew supply had them for 89) - helped me a lot when I dialed in my own crush.

You might also want to check your volume of sparge water and use a little less if you're way below gravity, and/or mash a little lower (140) for longer (60 min vs 45). I had a number of beers with low gravity when I started brewing again last year (e.g my "extra light esb") and reducing the water helped.

Good to see you're using the hydrometer w/ first runnings - can always save a batch with a little dme if you catch it before the boil.

I don't typically use my hydro for my runnings, but I sure refractometer the runnings to death!! So far, I have good faith in the refractometer during the mash/boil/OG - I've tested the results against my hydrometer and come within +-.001 SG. I still need further testing on my FG readings to make sure the refractometer conversion algorithm properly compensates for the presence of alcohol.

Also, I typically mash at a consistent 154F, but this time I was going for an DIPA, hence the mild step up attempt. I wanted to get a more fermentable wort to help mitigate the high sweetness caused by a higher FG due to mash temp.

Well just bottled my Belgian Strong - 1.080 OG finished at 1.008 so I'm pleased! I'm anxious to taste the final product well carbonated and chilled product

Awesome - let us know how it goes!

Will do... going to open up one tonight to see how it is coming along. A bit of cheating and know that it won't be fully carbed, but brewer beware, sometimes patience cannot be had!

I have a similar cooler tun setup and just did my 2nd all grain batch over the weekend. The efficiency of my first batch was in the 45% range and this was 62%. Course grind on first batch and missed temps on the low side, but this batch was double ground and temps within 2F of target.
My water/grain ratio was 1.4 and I’m leaning towards increasing this closer to 2 to see if I can’t pull a larger volume of higher gravity first runnings. I’ll also start stirring every 20 min or so during the mash to see if that has any effect on conversion but I suspect it will be minimal

If I were you, I'd take whatever tool is needed and adjust their mill for them. At my LHBS, it's a simple twist of a couple knobs, so I always set it how I like before grinding.

Spoke with an employee who is an experienced brewer. Ran through most everything regarding my process - he couldn't say what the miller's spacing was either... both sides are gear operated. Agreed to try to double grinding the grain to see if it helps.

Tested the Belgian Strong - still lightly carbed, not fully integrated. Has great promise so far, look forward to seeing how it develops!

Well don't think grind is my issue... did a double grind of my grain and still struggled with gravity. Had to do a marathon boil to get 5G in the fermenter at 1.084, not the expected 1.094 with the expected 70% & 60 minute boil. With my starter, activity within 2 hrs and thankful I
Used a blowoff - its going bonkers. Temp around 66-68 for majority of primary so far.

No clue... at least it's beer, right? Next batch will use RO water to see if it helps.

Did you stir frequently during the mash?

Several times, approximately every 20 minutes. Checked for dough balls as well.

Just because double grinding resulted in no improvement doesn't mean your grind is ok. Double grinding only helps if the gap is already pretty close and maybe there's isn't.

If nobody at your LHBS will tell you what the gap spacing is or adjust it down for you, then you simply need to find another LHBS or buy your own mill. You really need to get in control of your grind; it's too important. Or else you can just plan for poor efficiency by using more malt.

BTW, hopefully you saw this sticky. It pretty well covers poor efficiency issues.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/maximizing-efficiency-when-batch-sparging-77125/

I am familiar with that tread, thanks! I will eventually get around to buying a mill, just not sure when. Can you discern anything from the pic?

Grind still looks a little coarse, but I don't think it's the entire problem. I got a hand-crank corona mill online for about $30 including shipping, works like a charm. My efficiency is 15% higher than before, although some of that is from knowing what I'm doing. Plus, with just a few more high-gravity batches, my right arm will be twice the size of my left.

I'm always going to be examining my process, I'd be stupid not to. Currently I think I'm doing as well as expected given my setup. Hitting temps, hitting volumes, spot checking gravity during mash and improving final product. The one piece that is no where close is when I measure my preboil gravity.

What I'm left with currently is examining the grind and potentially water chemistry.

Instead of worrying about water chemistry, focus on mash pH instead. Water chemistry won't affect efficiency outside of the pH impact.

When you add the sparge water, do you thoroughly stir it in? With a batch sparge, it is the stirring of the sparge water additions that causes the sugars to dissolve.

-a.

Yes gave it a good 10 minute hefty stir. Even my 1st runnings gravities are very low. Example: I think it was my last batch, calculator said I should expect 1st runnings at 1.101, batch sparge obviously lower to come to a pre boil gravity of 1.079. I was no where close lol... It will come with trial and error