Why do people continue to try and cold ferment ale yeast?

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permo

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I have settled on Pacman yeast as my house strain, and people make such a big stink about this yeast, and WLP029 among others, because they can ferment cool. I don't understand fully, why you would want to ferment top cropping ale yeast that cool. You get increased diacetyl (spelling), slower fermentations, longer lag times, potential under attenuation, the yeast may drop out...etc..etc. All because you think you are going to get a "cleaner" beer.

My experience, with both pacman and WLP029, is that you will get your cleanest beers between 65-70 degrees, with plenty of nutrient, O2 and plenty of healthy yeast from a proper starter. Make the yeast happy and they will give you clean, crisp beers..... if you want lager beer, get lager yeast and temperature control.

my two cents for the day.

:mug:
 
Because it's common knowledge that controlling temperatures helps your beer, but (new) people just assume that means keep it cold.


I mean, another 10F lower is extra clearer...rerer!
 
Because it's common knowledge that controlling temperatures helps your beer, but (new) people just assume that means keep it cold.


I mean, another 10F lower is extra clearer...rerer!



I have found, that for most ale yeast 65-70 is the sweet spot...with my setup anyways. I don't ever like it to drop below 60, or go above 75!

With pacman, chico, notty, kolsch....virtually any ale yeast I shoot for 68...and it works awesomely.
 
I have settled on Pacman yeast as my house strain, and people make such a big stink about this yeast, and WLP029 among others, because they can ferment cool. I don't understand fully, why you would want to ferment top cropping ale yeast that cool. You get increased diacetyl (spelling), slower fermentations, longer lag times, potential under attenuation, the yeast may drop out...etc..etc. All because you think you are going to get a "cleaner" beer.

Actually, you will get LESS diacetyl from a colder fermentation. However, it is true that what diacetyl is produced won't be cleaned up as fast by the yeast. With a warmer ferment, you will get more diacetyl production, but the yeast will clean it up faster.

If one pitches a healthy starter into a well oxygenated wort, there should be no issues with lag time, under attentuation, etc. for many ale yeasts pitched at 60-65F.

That being said, one has to be more careful when fermenting on the cool side to make sure the yeast are happy. I personally think it is worth it. Warmer fermentation temperatures are a little more forgiving.

Here is a nice article with a good summary of causes at the end

THE ROLE OF DIACETYL IN BEER
 
Actually, you will get LESS diacetyl from a colder fermentation. However, it is true that what diacetyl is produced won't be cleaned up as fast by the yeast. With a warmer ferment, you will get more diacetyl production, but the yeast will clean it up faster.

If one pitches a healthy starter into a well oxygenated wort, there should be no issues with lag time, under attentuation, etc. for many ale yeasts pitched at 60-65F.

That being said, one has to be more careful when fermenting on the cool side to make sure the yeast are happy. I personally think it is worth it. Warmer fermentation temperatures are a little more forgiving.

Here is a nice article with a good summary of causes at the end

THE ROLE OF DIACETYL IN BEER

white labs data on WLP029, indicates more diacytel when fermented cool:


http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp029.html

Three times more diacytel when fermted at 55 degrees versus 68 degrees.


Other than that, I do agree with your sentiments on happy yeast. In the winter, my basement is quite cold and I will propogate most of my ales around 60 degrees, because I have too...then after about 75% of fermentables are consumed, I move them to my fermentation room, and increase to 68-70 and the yeast finish up nicely.....however I would rather keep it 68 the entire time, but it costs money to heat the room up!

healthy yeast population, proper pitching rates, oxygen, nutrients and temp control....all good things.
 
white labs data on WLP029, indicates more diacytel when fermented cool:

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp029.html

Three times more diacytel when fermted at 55 degrees versus 68 degrees.

True, but they don't tell you when the measurement is taken. That could be diacetyl remaining in the fully fermented beer, not total diacetyl created. It would make more sense to give the former, I'd think, and it does coincide with general knowledge of how these products are produced and cleaned up.
 
If you're going to push the limits of the colder side of the yeast's working temperatures, it's extremely important that you're pitching plenty of yeast. Decide what you think a 'large' starter would be, then double it. And oxygenate well, too - you need something more than 'shake the carboy for a few seconds.'
Also, it helps to employ a 'finishing' rest by boosting temps just as the krausen starts to fall. Slowly bring it up 5 degrees - even 10, if you do it slowly and gently enough. This will keep the yeast active enough to clean up any remaining sugars and a bunch of their own byproducts like diacetyl and even some of the esters.

In general, though, I really don't understand the fascination with ultra-clean american-style ale yeasts. I do prefer to use slightly more characterful yeasts on the cooler side of their working ranges. 1272 is nice, and 65-68F (beer temp, not room temp!) is just perfect.
 
You have to realize something about PACman yeast. It is fermented at different temps at Rogue, depending on the beer they are brewing. Even as low as 60 degrees.

Byo magazine said:
The Rogue Says: Ferment and Condition at Cooler Temperatures
“Yeast is a good thing, and cooler is better. Even with our proprietary ‘Pacman’ ale yeast, we ferment at temperatures as low as 60 degrees Fahrenheit,” says John, adding that regardless of the yeast strain, constant temperature control will improve beer quality. With many strains, John suggests fermenting on the low side of the yeast’s optimum temperature range. This will create a smoother profile, with reduced fermentation esters —compounds that make a finished beer smell “fruity.”

Cooler fermentations will require slightly extended fermentation and conditioning periods, but this allows the flavors in big beers — styles with higher malt, alcohol and hop levels — to meld and mellow while remaining in contact with the yeast.

From the Wyeast website:

“Pacman is really great yeast; everything about it is good. Pacman attenuates well, is alcohol tolerant, and it produces beers with no diacetyl if the beer is well made. It’s very flocculent, which makes it a great choice for bottle conditioning. I ferment almost all my beers at 60° F; once in a while for certain styles I’ll ferment as high as 70° F, but never higher. Use lots of oxygen, and a high pitch rate. I never repitch past the 6th generation, and I always use Wyeast Yeast Nutrient.”
- John Maier, Brewmaster, Rogue Ales www.rogue.com
 
I know revvy, I have read all that literature from Rogue, in addition to a few podcasts with John M from Rogue. They ferment at 60 for everything but the barley wine supposedly which goes at 70 degrees.

I am reporting good success and clean fermentations as high as 72 degrees with pacman. However, my pacman is now 3rd generation and could very well be conditioned/mutated to ferment clean under my conditions.

I don't consider 60 to be super cold. There is just so much interest in using ale yeasts at lager temps, not sure I understand why when lager yeast is available.
 
In general, though, I really don't understand the fascination with ultra-clean american-style ale yeasts. I do prefer to use slightly more characterful yeasts on the cooler side of their working ranges. 1272 is nice, and 65-68F (beer temp, not room temp!) is just perfect.

It depend on what I want to taste. If I'm looking to taste some clean malt, or have a crisp bitterness in a beer, then I don't want a bunch of esters from the yeast competing with those flavors. For some styles I do want the esters and then I adjust things as necessary to that end
 
I think it is almost impossible to compare fermenting temperatures of a home brewer to that of a commercial operation. Too many factors like size of fermenter, geometry, yeast pitching rates, etc. go into the mix. So Rogues 60F might give different results than our 60F.

I started to get caught up in the fermenting colder thing, but stopped out at 64F as my low point with your normal ale yeast and usually shoot for 67-68F.
 
I think all the talk you see of people making jet fuel beer at 80+ degrees drives people towards the other end where the results seem far less disastrous.

Charts that show measures of various characteristics over a range of fermentation temps would be pretty interesting, such as Diacetal, sulfur, phenols, etc. Alternate copies with a d-rest.
 
because with certain strains you can get results similar to lagers....without taking as long as lagers or d-rests, etc.
also if your using an icebath, its not a big deal if you forget to swap out the frozen bottles one night verus if you were using a lager strain via frozenbottles in water
 
I have settled on Pacman yeast as my house strain, and people make such a big stink about this yeast, and WLP029 among others, because they can ferment cool. I don't understand fully, why you would want to ferment top cropping ale yeast that cool. You get increased diacetyl (spelling), slower fermentations, longer lag times, potential under attenuation, the yeast may drop out...etc..etc. All because you think you are going to get a "cleaner" beer.

My experience, with both pacman and WLP029, is that you will get your cleanest beers between 65-70 degrees, with plenty of nutrient, O2 and plenty of healthy yeast from a proper starter. Make the yeast happy and they will give you clean, crisp beers..... if you want lager beer, get lager yeast and temperature control.

my two cents for the day.

:mug:

I ferment all of my ales on the cooler range (especially pacman and nottingham), and I'm one of those who must have a slower fermentation, potential underattenuation, diacteyl laden, crappy beer I guess. all because I think I'm going to get a "cleaner" beer. But what do I know? I'm just a lowly homebrewer. If you're getting great results at 70 and can criticize my techniques, then I must be wrong. Good thing you'll never have to drink my pathetic attempts at ales.
 
I have settled on Pacman yeast as my house strain, and people make such a big stink about this yeast, and WLP029 among others, because they can ferment cool. I don't understand fully, why you would want to ferment top cropping ale yeast that cool. You get increased diacetyl (spelling), slower fermentations, longer lag times, potential under attenuation, the yeast may drop out...etc..etc. All because you think you are going to get a "cleaner" beer.

My experience, with both pacman and WLP029, is that you will get your cleanest beers between 65-70 degrees, with plenty of nutrient, O2 and plenty of healthy yeast from a proper starter. Make the yeast happy and they will give you clean, crisp beers..... if you want lager beer, get lager yeast and temperature control.

my two cents for the day.

:mug:
Seems to me if you're getting diacetyl, under attenuation, and the yeast is dropping out just from fermenting on the cool side then you may not be 'pitching plenty of healthy yeast from a proper starter'...'with plenty of nutrient <and> O2'. Lots of people ferment cool and don't have those problems. Just clean, crisp beers.

I don't think general statements like 'slower fermentations' or 'longer lag times' being necessarily bad are correct. Relative to what? You typically don't want the yeast going total gangbusters...you want it slower than that. And a lag time of 24 hours vs. 6 or whatever isn't really that big of a deal imo.

Then there are some of us that like to start cool (sometimes really cool when pitching) and then let it warm a bit as fermentation winds down. But I must admit, I do that because I'm lazy and don't want to keep swapping out frozen water bottles/ice packs...and I can get away with it.:)
 
I think it is almost impossible to compare fermenting temperatures of a home brewer to that of a commercial operation. Too many factors like size of fermenter, geometry, yeast pitching rates, etc. go into the mix. So Rogues 60F might give different results than our 60F.

Exactly. In the context of homebrewing, it doesn't matter a bit what Rogue does Revvy...plus, overall, their beer isn't world class IMO anyways.
 
OH BOY. The 'Yeast Police'. I had a batch with WP400 drop to 50F. When I saw the yeast didn't drop out I left it that way. Did the second batch ONLY at that temp. The second batch was noticeably better. So now you tell me I'm not allowed to do that anymore? Yeah, right.......
 
OH BOY. The 'Yeast Police'. I had a batch with WP400 drop to 50F. When I saw the yeast didn't drop out I left it that way. Did the second batch ONLY at that temp. The second batch was noticeably better. So now you tell me I'm not allowed to do that anymore? Yeah, right.......

I didn't say anybody was not allowed to do anything. I was simply wondering why people seem fascinated with cold fermenting with ale yeast. Basically, I am trying to say that I (just my opinion here, not telling you what to do) think it is better for me(just me, nobody else) to ferment my beers in the 65-70 degree range with the yeast strains that I mentioned (WLP400 was not mentioned).
 
I don't think general statements like 'slower fermentations' or 'longer lag times' being necessarily bad are correct. Relative to what? You typically don't want the yeast going total gangbusters...you want it slower than that. And a lag time of 24 hours vs. 6 or whatever isn't really that big of a deal imo.

I agree. I've never understood this need to "rush" the process. This isn't a race, it's a natural process. Is it a youth thing? "Grain to glass in a week" is not my goal. Making and drinking great beer is the goal. If it takes a month, 6 months, a year, fine. That's what a pipeline is for. I'm never without beer to drink, and soon to be ready to drink. And if for some reason I am, and I don't having anything, or nothing's ready, I don't compromise that, I go but some beer. And use that rare gap in pipeline to broaden my tasting horizons by trying new things. That's how I've expanded my pallet for more beers to brew, by drinking more beers.

Maybe I'm just old......I'm not part of the instant gratification generation. :p
 
I ferment all of my ales on the cooler range (especially pacman and nottingham), and I'm one of those who must have a slower fermentation, potential underattenuation, diacteyl laden, crappy beer I guess. all because I think I'm going to get a "cleaner" beer. But what do I know? I'm just a lowly homebrewer. If you're getting great results at 70 and can criticize my techniques, then I must be wrong. Good thing you'll never have to drink my pathetic attempts at ales.

wasn't critisizing, just trying to understand the reasoning behind it.
 
It really depends on the yeast and what you want to get out of a beer. I use various fermentation temperature profiles, but usually I start the ferment cool and let it ramp up after 4-5 days to ambient. The beers come out excellent that way and don't usually need any aging (unless we are talking high gravity beers). Brewday to finished product in about 3 weeks is what I shoot for in many of my <12 plato beers.
 
Didn't mean it to come off that way.......everybody is a little on edge recently and quick to "snap" so to speak. I wasn't trying to tell anybody what to do, I was just venting a little I guess or trying to understand it anyways.....so many questions and posts about how cool you can ferment a certain yeast strain. No big deal. I will go ahead and apologize.........I should not have made generalized statements and suggestions because different techniques work for different brewers and so on. No one temp is always correct, no single mash temp is always correct..etc..etc..etc..

Maybe I am just jealous, my basement is 65 or so this time of year, and i have no ferm fridge, so I have no choice but to ferment warm!
 
My experience, with both pacman and WLP029, is that you will get your cleanest beers between 65-70 degrees, with plenty of nutrient, O2 and plenty of healthy yeast from a proper starter. Make the yeast happy and they will give you clean, crisp beers..... if you want lager beer, get lager yeast and temperature control.

I have been using 029 a lot lately and I've noticed that if it gets above 70, it makes a fruity beer. I pitch a nice 1L starter at 68-70, then lower the temp over two days to around 65 for fermentation. Ferm definitely takes a day or two longer at this temp, but it clearly benefits the end result. Once bottled, this yeast continues to condition nicely in the fridge as well. Whereas most other top fermenters seem to go dormant at cold temps, the Kolsch yeast really seems to benefit from a bit of lagering time and cleans up the beer nicely. So, to me---WLP 029, a lager yeast? No. But benefit from lagering? Yes. At least in my experience. It's a great transition for ale to lager brewers that aren't yet ready to do 'real' lagering.

I make a house Noble Pils-type Ale with 029 that's almost as clean as any lager (lower mash temp also helps in this regard)...it's not a lager yeast...but still likes a good cold rest.
 
Yea, it came off a bit preachy but I'm guilty of that myself.
Maybe I am just jealous, my basement is 65 or so this time of year, and i have no ferm fridge, so I have no choice but to ferment warm!
You have a 65* F basement in August and you're jealous? I got a 77* F bathroom (no basements here). I'm jealous of you!

But around January, I won't be.:p
 
I have been using 029 a lot lately and I've noticed that if it gets above 70, it makes a fruity beer. I pitch a nice 1L starter at 68-70, then lower the temp over two days to around 65 for fermentation. Ferm definitely takes a day or two longer at this temp, but it clearly benefits the end result. Once bottled, this yeast continues to condition nicely in the fridge as well. Whereas most other top fermenters seem to go dormant at cold temps, the Kolsch yeast really seems to benefit from a bit of lagering time and cleans up the beer nicely. So, to me---WLP 029, a lager yeast? No. But benefit from lagering? Yes. At least in my experience. It's a great transition for ale to lager brewers that aren't yet ready to do 'real' lagering.

I make a house Noble Pils-type Ale with 029 that's almost as clean as any lager (lower mash temp also helps in this regard)...it's not a lager yeast...but still likes a good cold rest.

I too use a lot of 029, I ferment at 68 like you, but the final product does IMO, benefit from a cold lagering period. I totally agree.
 
i thought it was an interesting insight personally, there are a ton of threads about making "lagers" with ale yeast. i've certainly tried it out, used both us-05 and nottingham at below 60 degrees and did not care for the results. i've been slowly bringing my temps up (65 or so) with 1056 and they're still turning out very clean ales with a tad more yeast character than at lower temps.
 
I ferment all of my ales on the cooler range (especially pacman and nottingham), and I'm one of those who must have a slower fermentation, potential underattenuation, diacteyl laden, crappy beer I guess. all because I think I'm going to get a "cleaner" beer. But what do I know? I'm just a lowly homebrewer. If you're getting great results at 70 and can criticize my techniques, then I must be wrong. Good thing you'll never have to drink my pathetic attempts at ales.

Beautiful. And not even as a shot to the op. Just beautiful in general.:mug:
 
ive never used pacman yeast but might want to try to culture some someday, how does it compare to s-05?
 
Didn't mean it to come off that way.......everybody is a little on edge recently and quick to "snap" so to speak. I wasn't trying to tell anybody what to do, I was just venting a little I guess or trying to understand it anyways.....so many questions and posts about how cool you can ferment a certain yeast strain. No big deal. I will go ahead and apologize.........I should not have made generalized statements and suggestions because different techniques work for different brewers and so on. No one temp is always correct, no single mash temp is always correct..etc..etc..etc..

Maybe I am just jealous, my basement is 65 or so this time of year, and i have no ferm fridge, so I have no choice but to ferment warm!

I'm not really on edge- I just don't like seeing the blanket statements that say, "This worked for me, so the rest of the people are doing it wrong!"

There are many reasons to pick a certain fermentation temperature. It's part of the whole recipe. Just as I select certain malts, hops, water profile, mash temperatures, etc, I choose a yeast strain based on what I want it to bring to that particular beer. After I choose all of those, I choose the fermentation temperature. I really like Northwest ale yeast at 72 degrees- it brings a subdued fruitiness that enhances APAs and IPAs greatly. If I want NO fruity flavors, I choose pacman and ferment at 60. It's so clean you'd swear you can't taste any yeast character at that temperature. If I want a nice English bitter, often London ale yeast at 68 will give me exactly what I'm looking for.

I do tend to ferment most ales cool- because I make a ton of beers where I don't want much yeast character. I like a clean crisp IIPA, a hop-forward IPA, a balanced AAA; and I want my Dead Guy clone to be almost lager-like. When I make lagers, I also pick a certain yeast for a reason, and ferment accordingly. I don't think that any one yeast strain is the be all and end all, but you can do many things with one strain simply by varying the fermentation temperature.

We all have different experiences, and I respect them all. I've read many posts where people say, "I ferment at 80 degrees and my beer rocks!" And you know what? That's awesome. I mean, our goal as homebrews is to brew a beer we love for ourselves, family, and friends. If it works for you, that's wonderful. I would suggest that most yeast strains have some undesirable flavors at 80 degrees, but if the person loves it that way, then I support that. I happen to like a cleaner yeast taste in most of my brews. That doesn't make me right or wrong.
 
I'm not really on edge- I just don't like seeing the blanket statements that say, "This worked for me, so the rest of the people are doing it wrong!"

There are many reasons to pick a certain fermentation temperature. It's part of the whole recipe. Just as I select certain malts, hops, water profile, mash temperatures, etc, I choose a yeast strain based on what I want it to bring to that particular beer. After I choose all of those, I choose the fermentation temperature. I really like Northwest ale yeast at 72 degrees- it brings a subdued fruitiness that enhances APAs and IPAs greatly. If I want NO fruity flavors, I choose pacman and ferment at 60. It's so clean you'd swear you can't taste any yeast character at that temperature. If I want a nice English bitter, often London ale yeast at 68 will give me exactly what I'm looking for.

I do tend to ferment most ales cool- because I make a ton of beers where I don't want much yeast character. I like a clean crisp IIPA, a hop-forward IPA, a balanced AAA; and I want my Dead Guy clone to be almost lager-like. When I make lagers, I also pick a certain yeast for a reason, and ferment accordingly. I don't think that any one yeast strain is the be all and end all, but you can do many things with one strain simply by varying the fermentation temperature.

We all have different experiences, and I respect them all. I've read many posts where people say, "I ferment at 80 degrees and my beer rocks!" And you know what? That's awesome. I mean, our goal as homebrews is to brew a beer we love for ourselves, family, and friends. If it works for you, that's wonderful. I would suggest that most yeast strains have some undesirable flavors at 80 degrees, but if the person loves it that way, then I support that. I happen to like a cleaner yeast taste in most of my brews. That doesn't make me right or wrong.

Right on man, right on. Once, again I will try to refrain from making generalities in this public forum, I certainly did not intend to offend or to "force" my brewing techniques on anybody else. If anything, I am happy that my beers turn out great at these temps.

I am wondering possibly, if my pacman, which is now 4th generation is becoming mutated to my conditions, slowly, slowly increasing the temp until I got it to where it is today. Clean and dry and 72? I know this pacman isn't mutated to far, because when i cold crash my starters there is still activity until it has sat at 33-34 for quite a while!
 
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