Clone beers don't taste like the real thing

I have made a couple of clones, one a shiner bock and another Newcastle Brown Ale. Both of them taste great but don't really taste that much like the real thing. Curious whether this is common or whether my brewing techniques are not that good.

It really depends on the recipe. Some clone recipes are not even close and others will get you pretty close to the commercial they attempt to emulate. I'm curious what recipes you used.

Heineken said:

I have made a couple of clones, one a shiner bock and another Newcastle Brown Ale. Both of them taste great but don't really taste that much like the real thing. Curious whether this is common or whether my brewing techniques are not that good.

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Extract or all grain?

I think when you brew with the intentions of replicating a commercial beer you are setting yourself up for failure. You'll most likely end up with an excellent beer but the fact that it's noticeably different than what you are trying to achieve you'll be disappointed. Brew a clone for the style only, don't expect a 'clone'.

both were extract kits, one had some steeping grains.

The shiner bock was a clone from Austin Homebrew Supply. Ingredients included:
5 lbs. Amber DME
1 lb. corn sugar
Brewers Gold hops - 60
maltoferm

Newcastle clone:
% LB OZ Malt or Fermentable ppg °L
82% 5 0 Amber Dry Extract info 44 12
8% 0 8 Wheat Malt info 39 2
8% 0 8 Crystal Malt - 60L (Thomas Fawcett) info 34 60
2% 0 2 Chocolate Malt info 34 475

Boil 60 mins 1.5 Goldings info pellet 5.0
Boil 15 mins 0.5 Goldings info pellet 5.0

boil 60 min 16 ounces Brown Sugar info
boil 15 min 1 ounces Irish Moss info
boil 15 min 4 ounces Lactose

British Ale yeast

I've never brewed anything exactly to clone. Hell, I'm not the most consistent brewer in the world and my brews never come out the exact same, let alone a clone of another beer.

MikeG said:

Brew a clone for the style only, don't expect a 'clone'.

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This has been my experience as well (at least with Extract recipes). I brew clones to compare against styles that I am most familiar with. They never come out EXACTLY like the commercial version but all of my friends have consistantly said they like the clone better! I have to say I agree with them...

-Tripod

Heineken said:

both were extract kits, one had some steeping grains.

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Since commercial breweries don't brew using extract, expecting an extract kit to taste the same is unreasonable.

As long as you brew extracts, brew the styles that you like and enjoy the uniqueness of your beers.

If you want to zero in on a specific commercial recipe, you'll need to move to the more advanced method of all-grain brewing.

The only way to clone a commercial recipe is to do the things they do...using the ingredients that they use.

BierMuncher said:

Since commercial breweries don't brew using extract, expecting an extract kit to taste the same is unreasonable.

As long as you brew extracts, brew the styles that you like and enjoy the uniqueness of your beers.

If you want to zero in on a specific commercial recipe, you'll need to move to the more advanced method of all-grain brewing.

The only way to clone a commercial recipe is to do the things they do...using the ingredients that they use.

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+1 I made the extract version of Yooper's DFH 60 minute clone a while back. It turned out great, but not as good as the original. It was similar, but much of the complexity and depth that comes from the malt wasn't there.

BierMuncher said:

Since commercial breweries don't brew using extract, expecting an extract kit to taste the same is unreasonable.

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Well, most good breweries don't use extract. Some of those fly by night sports bar/brewpub places do.


You also have to remember replicating chages caused by altitude, temp, equipment, and water can be near impossible. Sometimes close just has to be good enough.

Heineken said:

both were extract kits, one had some steeping grains.

Newcastle clone:
% LB OZ Malt or Fermentable ppg °L
82% 5 0 Amber Dry Extract info 44 12
8% 0 8 Wheat Malt info 39 2
8% 0 8 Crystal Malt - 60L (Thomas Fawcett) info 34 60
2% 0 2 Chocolate Malt info 34 475

British Ale yeast

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Would you recommend the Newcastle recipe...even if not as a clone but as a good/similar brown ale? I'm looking for a good brown ale recipe that is similar in style to Newcastle. Also, is this a partial mash, or are they just steeping grains?

penguinfogel said:

Well, most good breweries don't use extract. Some of those fly by night sports bar/brewpub places do.


You also have to remember replicating chages caused by altitude, temp, equipment, and water can be near impossible. Sometimes close just has to be good enough.

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Altitude? Can you explain what type of effects altitude would have on a brew? I have never heard of this.

mahilly said:

Would you recommend the Newcastle recipe...even if not as a clone but as a good/similar brown ale? I'm looking for a good brown ale recipe that is similar in style to Newcastle. Also, is this a partial mash, or are they just steeping grains?

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Yes, this recipe turned out great. It wasn't as sweet as Newcastle so if you like it sweet, might want to up the amount of brown sugar. I plan to make this one again. This was steeping grains and not partial mash. I can probably dig up the instructions and send them to you if you'd like.

BierMuncher said:

The only way to clone a commercial recipe is to do the things they do...using the ingredients that they use.

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Strewth. I'd like to add: ", using the procedures they use."

There are sooooo many variables involved.

For example, you can use UK malts, UK hops and yeast stolen from the brewery itself, but I guarantee your homebrewed clone will not resemble Sam Smith's Old Brewery Bitter. Why? Simple: Your fermenter is not a traditional stone square.

For another, do you have the capability of sterile filtration?

For yet another, I see your Newkie clone is all-in-one. Real Newkie is a blend of two beers, one of which is not commercially available and of which Scottish & Newcastle release no data whatever, so it's not like you can brew to blend in your own brewery.

This is not to urinate in anyone's Kool-aid. This is only to say that you should be satisfied with getting as close as you can, because you can never brew an exact copy.

Cheers!

Bob

Check out Jamil's podcasts on the Internet. He has a program where they try to replicate a commercial beer exactly. Can't remember the name off the top of my head, but it's on Brewingnetwork.com

It only takes a little deviation from exactly the way the breweries do it to impact the flavor and properties of your beer. Challenging for AG and darn near impossible for Extract.

Agreed.

I made BierMuncher's Bell's 2-Hearted Ale clone and it was not the same.

It was better!

Likewise with Jamil's Guinness Clone from Brewing Classic Styles.

YMMV

Heineken said:

both were extract kits, one had some steeping grains.

The shiner bock was a clone from Austin Homebrew Supply. Ingredients included:
5 lbs. Amber DME
1 lb. corn sugar
Brewers Gold hops - 60
maltoferm

Newcastle clone:
% LB OZ Malt or Fermentable ppg °L
82% 5 0 Amber Dry Extract info 44 12
8% 0 8 Wheat Malt info 39 2
8% 0 8 Crystal Malt - 60L (Thomas Fawcett) info 34 60
2% 0 2 Chocolate Malt info 34 475

Boil 60 mins 1.5 Goldings info pellet 5.0
Boil 15 mins 0.5 Goldings info pellet 5.0

boil 60 min 16 ounces Brown Sugar info
boil 15 min 1 ounces Irish Moss info
boil 15 min 4 ounces Lactose

British Ale yeast

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serveral have already said this but you can't expect an extract kit to be 100% spot on of a clone that uses all grain. That being said, New Castle is also a combination of 2 beers mixed together, One is somewhat of a strong ale that is aged and one is a lighter and younger beer. On that same note, I believe BM has a clone of new castle that sounds pretty close and only 1 brew session too.

Why must I always be the downer...

The truth is that your clone more often than not may not be better that the beer you are trying to clone. Most likely you are trying to clone a world class beer, and expecting your first attempt to that good is ludicrous. Yes many people are terribly biased with their homebrew so it may seem better than the original, but it most likely is not.

I just want to be sure for any new or newer brewers, that it is important to keep your expectations in check. If you are serious about cloning your favorite beer and actually want it to taste the same, it will be an iterative process of trying different ingredients and techniques to achieve your goal. It can be done, but will take many brewdays and a lot of attention to detail.

I tried a few clones, and although they didn't taste *exactly* the same as the commercial version, they still tasted awesome. Like someone mentioned previously, you are mainly cloning the style, which IMO, is good enough. If I wanted to clone my favorite beer exactly, I wouldn't and I would just go out and buy the case of beer.

BYO's 150 Clones has a Newcastle recipe for both ales that are combined. Haven't tried it to see how it does yet though.

double_e5 said:

Altitude? Can you explain what type of effects altitude would have on a brew? I have never heard of this.

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Less thermal loading of the wort at higher altitudes due to a lower boiling temperature.

I understand wanting to clone a beer, but keep in mind, the beauty of homebrewing is that you can make the beer you want. If you like 90 percent of things about a beer, but wish it had more hops, make it with more hops. If it doesn't match up exactly, there are a lot of reasons why it could be true, from ingredients to fermentation temps. Listen to 'can you brew it' to see that pros struggle to recreate commercial beers and they get most of the details from the brewers themselves.

remilard said:

Less thermal loading of the wort at higher altitudes due to a lower boiling temperature.

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Thanks for explaining it in geek speak

I knew altitude affects most things, and heard it can have a decent on things like IBUs and may even cause other things. I just wasn't sure what the exact cause was... Com to think of it I'm not sure I understand what you said

I've had good luck with clones. In the cases where I've been able to go head-to-head with the original draft, I've been quite happy with the results. I tend to do partial mashes for clones, which can make a difference.

Some of those fly by night sports bar/brewpub places do.

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There are a number of good breweries that use extract. Most commonly in urban areas where space is expensive and disposal of spent grains would be difficult. There's a big difference between buying by the pound and by the barrel.