Need help with wine planning

Hey everybody, It's been a while since I've posted. I've been quite busy lately.

I'm planning a wild blackberry/wild grape wine here within the next few hours, to the next few days depending on when I can get to it.

This will be my very first major all fruit wine and I want to make sure to get it right. I spent several days picking blackberries about two months ago, and I just got done picking muscadines. My recipe in progress is as follows:

9.8lbs muscadine grape
7.?lbs blackberry
5 gallons spring water
Pectic enzyme
Sugar (not sure how much)
Fermax
Acid Blend???


I plan on oaking this wine into an elegant and smooth fine wine. But I need as much criticism and assistance with this current recipe as possible. Aaaaand GO!

TheShadowfox said:

Hey everybody, It's been a while since I've posted. I've been quite busy lately.

I'm planning a wild blackberry/wild grape wine here within the next few hours, to the next few days depending on when I can get to it.

This will be my very first major all fruit wine and I want to make sure to get it right. I spent several days picking blackberries about two months ago, and I just got done picking muscadines. My recipe in progress is as follows:

9.8lbs muscadine grape
7.?lbs blackberry
5 gallons spring water
Pectic enzyme
Sugar (not sure how much)
Fermex
Acid Blend???

I plan on oaking this wine into an elegant and smooth fine wine. But I need as much criticism and assistance with this current recipe as possible. Aaaaand GO!

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More fruit, less water. You'll want 6-7 lbs of fruit per gallon of wine, otherwise it'll be too thin. Use your trusty hydrometer to figure out how much sugar to add.

My approach to acid blend is by taste. Only add if your wine tastes "flabby".

Hope this helps.

+1 on the more fruit suggestion. However, I think you may have meant, add all ingredients, and water up to 5 gallon? That would make more sense with your recipe as listed.

A method that seems to work well for some people I know is to measure water by filling in the gaps of the fruit. Place all the fruit in the bucket, and fill with water just until it hits the top of however much fruit you are using, then mash it for a while. Another thing to consider is your volume loss. I made a blackberry/blueberry wine in June that started out as 6.5 gallon. After losing the blackberry and blueberry skins/solids, it's already down to 5 gallon. When I rack again I'll probably lose another couple of pints. The final volume is looking to be about 75 % of the original.

Particularly with the wild picked berries and grapes, to increase your odds of not having spoilage problems you could be using a metabisulfite product to protect it from wild yeasts and other spoilage organisms that come in on the fruit from the outdoors.

That would mean using a solution made with water and metabisulfite to wash the berries and grapes before crushing. You can also add the metabisulfite product directly to the wine after primary fermentation to protect the wine from spoilage organisms and oxidation going forward.
(also note that in some cases people add metabisulfite directly to the must prior to fermentation 24 hours before adding yeast ... I'll leave that explanation to reading up on the use of metabisulfite. Reading-up ... a very good idea for future reference.)

Part of protecting the must/wine with sulfites after the primary ferment is adding the metabisulfite chemical (K-meta, Campden etc), while, as part of that same process making sure your pH (a type of measurement of acid) is within a certain range.

Add that acid blend *only* to the point that you get the pH to where you want it to be (generally between pH 3.8 and pH 4.0 - but no higher) . This means having pH test strips ... about $6.
Having the pH correct is what allows the metabisulfite to do its job.

If the must just prior to adding the yeast has a pH naturally in that range (3.8 to 4.0) without adding the acid ... then don't add the acid blend.

The other use for the acid blend is to add it carefully *to taste* after the ferment has finished if ... IF the wine seems to need more tartness. More reading ;-)

You would also do well to go to Jack Keller's website and study some random recipes and instructions there ... the menu on his site is at the bottom of the following page ... http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/index.asp

Also, sanitation (sanitizing equipment etc etc) in all your processes is hugely important in general and is worth its own study session.

Not going to get the test strips and check the pH?? ...
I'd say then just get the metabisulfite and use it as noted above, and per directions on its label and from your research and recipes you've read.

While your wine might turn out fine without paying attention to metabisulfite and pH, those steps are still worthwhile to increase your odds of success.

you could also freeze them momentarily to kill any bacteria and the just sulfite the must prior to fermentation to get rid of the wild yeast.

Honda88 said:

you could also freeze them momentarily to kill any bacteria and the just sulfite the must prior to fermentation to get rid of the wild yeast.

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Freezing does not kill bacteria, if anything it puts them into hibernation. People freeze fruit before the primary to burst the cell walls.

Thank you all for your help in this matter.

I always rinsed the berries and let them soak in a solution of two campden tablets for 24 hours prior to sticking them in the freezer.

I think I may have to go pick up a bunch of blackberries and grapes at the store... where would someone to to find wild muscadines for something like this?

So it's official? Close to 6 lbs per gallon eh?

I would freeze then campden before pitching the yeast, but yes, it sounds like you've got it down! Check out the local farmers market if you can wait till the weekend.

I know others are saying "more fruit" but in my experience both muscadines and blackberries are very tart and acidic (high in malic acid especially), and I would use more water and sugar to dilute the strong acidity, and possibly use grape concentrate (the winemaker's kind that comes in a pint container at homebrew stores), to make up some of the body and fermentables for the wine.

My blackberry wine recipe uses 4 pounds per gallon and fermentation goes well. My catawba grape recipe (not as "musky" as muscadines) uses about 5 pounds per gallon.

Normally, more fruit is good in wines but when you have such highly acidic fruit, the wine may be undrinkable when fermented out as well as a heck of time fermenting with such a low pH must.

When you "campden the must", use 1 crushed tablet per gallon. You can dissolve that in boiling water, and pour it over the fruit. I usually dissolve whatever sugar I'm adding in boiling water, too, as it dissolves easier. Using only 2 campden tablets on a lot of fruit isn't enough.

freezing does kill some bacteria cells, it does not kill all of them but a lot of them it does.

Just to be clear, I use two campden tablets to sanitize the outside skins of the berries before rinsing and then freezing, I will also put campden in before I put in the yeast. I have never had a wine go bad before, and I like keeping it that way.

Ok everyone, I have adjusted my recipe. Please feel free to tweak and send it back to me with suggestions.

9.8 lb wild Muscadine grape
9 lb black seedless grape
3 lb seedless red grape
7.? lb wild blackberry
3 lb store bought blackberry
5 gallons spring water

Yeast: Either Lavlin EC-1118 or Red Star "Pasteur Champagne" (these are the only two I have available and I do not really know the difference in taste change)

All fruit has been sanitized with campden, rinsed, then frozen. I this recipe looks ok I will crush the fruit, place into a nylon bag, and add into my must with 5 campden tabs prior to pitching the yeast. Yooper, you mentioned that it may be too tart, and I was afraid of that. The grapes I bought are just a bunch of sweet fermentables to add to the body without having to worry about any more acetic acid.

Thoughts?

Are you planning on adding all 5 gallons of water? If so, you'll need about 2 lbs of sugar per gallon of water. Double check your SG as you add sugar to get to 1.090 or so.

novalou said:

Are you planning on adding all 5 gallons of water? If so, you'll need about 2 lbs of sugar per gallon of water. Double check your SG as you add sugar to get to 1.090 or so.

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I think what I will have to do is add the rest of the water later. I'm rather cheap so I have to use a food grade bucket that is precisely at a 5 gallon capacity. Plus, with all that fruit it will take up a lot of space. So I will need to add the water over the fruit to determine that.

TheShadowfox said:

I think what I will have to do is add the rest of the water later. I'm rather cheap so I have to use a food grade bucket that is precisely at a 5 gallon capacity. Plus, with all that fruit it will take up a lot of space. So I will need to add the water over the fruit to determine that.

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I crushed all the fruit last night. It filled an entire 5 gallon bucket. I eventually split it up into two 5 gallon buckets with nylon bags and a total of 4 gallons of water and 4 campden tablets in each one. I may end up splitting those into a third bucket to leave more room in each for fermentation and another gallon of water.

How much campden for 30 pounds of frozen muscadines? I did not crush them before freezing. They are now thawing....

Sammyk said:

How much campden for 30 pounds of frozen muscadines? I did not crush them before freezing. They are now thawing....

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I don't think it matters how much the weight is, the general rule is to use 1 tab per gallon of substances to be fermented. When you crush them, add it to your containers and add accordingly then let sit for 24 hours.

That's a lot of wild grape, let me know how it goes. Are they nice and sugary without too much sour/tart (ascorbic acid)? If so then great, if not then you might want to do what I did and dilute it with a bunch of black sweet grapes.

Sammyk said:

How much campden for 30 pounds of frozen muscadines? I did not crush them before freezing. They are now thawing....

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It has to do with the "free" sulfites your campden addition provides. There is, technically, a measurement behind it. (heavy on the "technically") But for your purposes, it is a matter of the ratio of sulfites to volume. Just go by the recommended dose on the campden bottle.

If you initially add sulfites just to the crushed grapes & berries and do not add all the water, the percentage sulfites will be higher and work better against undesirable organisms and wild yeasts present at that time. This would be adding the sulfite amount that you expect to use for your eventual *total* volume (with water and all).

Then after you add your water, you will have diluted the sulfite to its intended "regular" level.

Even though you've added it once, you may eventually have to re-figure and re-add more sulfite. This addition would further protect your wine and continues to prevent infection and oxidization that might take hold from future rackings and also in the bottle.
In any case, those further sulfite additions are generally best done after fermentation is completed.



edit: I see now that you already added the water. Not a problem but make sure your sulfites are appropriate for the total volume.

It seems that the wine in its current state is around 9 gallons. Did I add too much water to an already watery fruit? Or will there be around 4 gallons of sediment? I need a fix for this if anyone has one.

TheShadowfox said:

It seems that the wine in its current state is around 9 gallons. Did I add too much water to an already watery fruit? Or will there be around 4 gallons of sediment? I need a fix for this if anyone has one.

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Not sure what your issue is.

Have you already strained and pressed the fruit pulp?

Oh yes, I forgot. I removed the pulp today by lifting the nylon bags and rolling it around to drain the liquid without squeezing. I got a lot, but it's still a lot of liquid and I'm afraid that adding 4 gallons of spring water to the fruit was just too much water. This is my first major all fruit wine so I'm a little nervous. I've made mead, juice wines, many simple things like that but it was always easy to determine the final quantity.

So how much liquid did you end up with?

9 gallons at this time. But I am sure I will end up with less after a good settling and racking.

TheShadowfox said:

9 gallons at this time. But I am sure I will end up with less after a good settling and racking.

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You'll end up with 8.5 or so. I would have added leas water, but if you added enough sugar, you'll have a light body wine.

Next time, don't add more than 1/2 gallon of water per 10 lbs of fruit. If you need to cut down on acid later, then you can add some more water.

novalou said:

You'll end up with 8.5 or so. I would have added leas water, but if you added enough sugar, you'll have a light body wine.

Next time, don't add more than 1/2 gallon of water per 10 lbs of fruit. If you need to cut down on acid later, then you can add some more water.

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You see, this is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for when I was making this recipe. I really appreciate you letting me know.

I think what I'll do is just add some more grapes here soon. No light body for me, I'm going for full. Any suggestions on how much?

TheShadowfox said:

You see, this is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for when I was making this recipe. I really appreciate you letting me know.

I think what I'll do is just add some more grapes here soon. No light body for me, I'm going for full. Any suggestions on how much?

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If it's still fermenting, I would add 2lbs more per gallon. If fermentation is done, add 1lb of chopped raisins per gallon.

novalou said:

If it's still fermenting, I would add 2lbs more per gallon. If fermentation is done, add 1lb of chopped raisins per gallon.

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Excellent, it shall be done then. Since I now have a whole lot of wine, I think I will halve it into a dry and a sweet version.

TheShadowfox said:

Oh yes, I forgot. I removed the pulp today by lifting the nylon bags and rolling it around to drain the liquid without squeezing. I got a lot, but it's still a lot of liquid and I'm afraid that adding 4 gallons of spring water to the fruit was just too much water. This is my first major all fruit wine so I'm a little nervous. I've made mead, juice wines, many simple things like that but it was always easy to determine the final quantity.

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Why did you not squeeze? Next time, squeeze the heck out of the fruit. A press presses the fruit (squeezes it) so that the pulp left is almost dry. You want ALL of the fruit juice out of the fruit, so squeeze it like it owes you money!

Yooper said:

Why did you not squeeze? Next time, squeeze the heck out of the fruit. A press presses the fruit (squeezes it) so that the pulp left is almost dry. You want ALL of the fruit juice out of the fruit, so squeeze it like it owes you money!

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Lol, you got it Yooper. I was told that if you squeeze it then you'll make it far more difficult to clear it or something like that.

There are some fruits that you do not press hard. Things like peaches, bananas, even pears, some apples (think suspended jelly bag, dripping away). You learn what they are as you work with them or others share their experience. Usually these fruits have broken down into mush and you will just express fruit pulp and pectin into your wine if you go all out. This can make it more challenging to clear your wine. An independent choice, hard press versus a light, gentle one.

saramc said:

There are some fruits that you do not press hard. Things like peaches, bananas, even pears, some apples (think suspended jelly bag, dripping away). You learn what they are as you work with them or others share their experience. Usually these fruits have broken down into mush and you will just express fruit pulp and pectin into your wine if you go all out. This can make it more challenging to clear your wine. An independent choice, hard press versus a light, gentle one.

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Have you ever used a cheese cloth for such presses (the hard ones)? Just curious, I would like to THINK it would help.

I ended up adding another 18lbs of black grapes. They were sanitized then crushed into the buckets. Man that's a lot of wine... I think I shall make a sweetened and a dry version of this.