Is it too bad if I shake the fermentation?

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user 144938

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Is it too bad for the beer if I shake or whirl the fermentor a little bit during the fermentation during the first 2-5 days? I mean a little whirl for moving the sediments not a vigorous shake.
 
If you have a krausen ring on a glass Carboy I sometimes swirl to get the still-wet sediment down into the trub before it cements on the glass.
 
Doing things like swirling the fermenter fosters an attitude of wanting to screw with your beer. One minute you'll be swirling your beer (haha, look at me!), and then before you know it you will have dropped a chuck key into the brew(f*****k). True story, not mine. The moral is to leave the beer alone. Swirling does nothing but potentially mix nasty tasting krausen scum back into the brew.
 
Swirling is atcually not bad, you can swirl more the earlier in the ferment u are. Making motions before roaring ferment will make for a better overall attenuation.
 
germanmade84 said:
Swirling is atcually not bad, you can swirl more the earlier in the ferment u are. Making motions before roaring ferment will make for a better overall attenuation.

What on earth would make swirling help you get a better attenuation, providing that your pitch rates were proper and your wort was well oxygenated? What would you be basing this information off of?
 
Have u even attempted it? Then you dont know.

Never stuck my finger in a pencil sharpener but I know my nose picking will hampered if I do.

Leave the yeast alone to do what they do best. If you feel you must play some Barry Manilow music to help get the yeast in the mood but I do not think that will help much either
 
germanmade84 said:
Experience

So I'm assuming you have brewed the exact same recipe twice( one swirled, the other left alone)with same OG, same pitching rate, same temperature for exactly the same fermentation time and have seen better attenuation in the one you swirled? That's the only way to know for sure. Not trying to be a jerk, but just wondering if you have truly tested the theory and seen results.
 
germanmade84 said:
Have u even attempted it? Then you dont know.

Yes I have attempted it, when I was a noob. It encourages your newly fermenting beer to release CO2 and fizz, which excites noobs because it makes it look like something exciting is happening. Your anecdotal evidence is going to have to be backed up by some science to be worth anything. What experiments have you conducted, with control specimens, where the only changed factor was you swirling the fermenter? You've done this? My assertion is easy to test. Wait till your beer is done fermenting. Take a nice spoon full of the scum that's caked to the sides where the krausen built up, and eat it. Taste good? Taste like something you'd want to have in your beer?
 
Varmintman said:
Never stuck my finger in a pencil sharpener but I know my nose picking will hampered if I do.

Leave the yeast alone to do what they do best. If you feel you must play some Barry Manilow music to help get the yeast in the mood but I do not think that will help much either

Ok, so basic starter making 101:
Reducing CO2
Lower alcohol content
Higher O2 concentration
Ideal sugar parameters

All of these cause HIGHER attenuation since u have HIGHR yeast count resulted.
 
Didnt say better taste, didnt say makes better beer.

I said better attenuation.

Cant call me out on that dudes.
 
Doing things like swirling the fermenter fosters an attitude of wanting to screw with your beer. One minute you'll be swirling your beer (haha, look at me!), and then before you know it you will have dropped a chuck key into the brew(f*****k). True story, not mine. The moral is to leave the beer alone. Swirling does nothing but potentially mix nasty tasting krausen scum back into the brew.

Ok, so basic starter making 101:
Reducing CO2
Lower alcohol content
Higher O2 concentration
Ideal sugar parameters

All of these cause HIGHER attenuation since u have HIGHR yeast count resulted.

One post makes sense, while the other does not.

Making a starter has nothing to do with shaking the fermenter, so I fail to see the connection.

You definitely do NOT want to swirl/shake the fermenter in most cases. You don't want the foul tasting krausen remnants back in the beer (Charlie Papazian talks about using a blow off to get rid of that stuff in TJOH in a small carboy). Plus, you want the sediment to settle, and the spent yeast to flocculate out.

The only time swirling the fermenter even might be indicated is when you have a highly flocculant strain of English yeast that wants to fall out before attenuating fully. That's rare, and almost never the case, so you can pretty much rely on "leave it alone" as good advice.
 
germanmade84 said:
Ok, so basic starter making 101:
Reducing CO2
Lower alcohol content
Higher O2 concentration
Ideal sugar parameters

All of these cause HIGHER attenuation since u have HIGHR yeast count resulted.

So you're saying that better attenuation = less alcohol? Why not just admit that you've dispensed bogus advice and leave it at that. Making beer at the entry left can be very discouraging if someone on the Internet tells you to do something foolish with your brew.
 
Didnt say better taste, didnt say makes better beer.

I said better attenuation.

Cant call me out on that dudes.

You bet! Prove the better attenuation. The ONLY time this might work is when using an English, highly flocculant strain, and that is only if the yeast prematurely flocculates.

Sometimes you say ridiculous things, with no proof at all. In this forum, that's really not going to be ignored.

And here's the thing- if the beer isn't better, and it doesn't taste better, why would someone risk oxidation and ruining their beer because YOU said they'd get "better attenuation"? That makes no sense at all.
 
Sorry if I was a little terse Yooper. I'm not trying to cause any problems, just fighting bad info and probably have a case of the Wednesdays.
 
Nope, u miss understand

No, I think YOU misunderstand. This forum is not for bickering, or for pseudo science. If you can prove what you are saying (and I don't even know what that is, to be honest, since it's not about "better beer"), then feel free to carry on.

But to make ridiculous statements that have no basis in fact, and to argue the point, is silly.
 
Ok, so basic starter making 101:
Reducing CO2
Lower alcohol content
Higher O2 concentration
Ideal sugar parameters

All of these cause HIGHER attenuation since u have HIGHR yeast count resulted.

Umm are you making beer or starter. The yeast goes through 3 phases in the beer making process and oxygen is only important in the first stage.

Lower booze. Again are you making beer or near beer. I kind of thought alcohol was a big part of beer

Reduce CO2 at the risk of introducing oxygen and the nasty crud stuck to the fermenter.

I got no clue what you mean by ideal sugar parameters.

But the biggest reason not to is because many have tried and found it SUCKS
 
Odinperez said:
Is it too bad for the beer if I shake or whirl the fermentor a little bit during the fermentation during the first 2-5 days? I mean a little whirl for moving the sediments not a vigorous shake.

This thread got a little cra cra. You swirl starters not fermenters generally, because you can cold crash and toss out the oxidized, nasty starter beer.

So why does the OP feel this is needed? Did the CO2 airlock stop "bubbling" ? the airlock does not generally indicate fermentation, a hydrometer reading does. It *could* be too cold (sub 60 degrees for most ale yeast). If so, i'd move it to a warmer spot or wrap a towel/blanket etc. What is going on?
 
Looks to me as if OP may be talking about the benefits of aeration during fermentation, rather than agitation for the sake of resuspending the yeast. And there may be some merit to aeration beginning after the onset of active fermentation. If agitation is your method of aeration and it's also causing the brunhefe to dissolve into the beer, that's obviously not good.

As to continuing aeration after the onset of fermentation, quoting from "Making Big Brews Like the Pros", by Amahl Scheppach in the current issue of Zymurgy, in the section on aeration: "Aerate early, heavily and often...You can really help your "super" beers by repeating aeration or oxgenation during the lag phase and on into actual fermentation. This isn't something that the pros gerenarally do, but theoretically intermittent aeration can be done as late as five days into fermentation. How intermittent? As often as every four to six hours, if you can manage it."

I've read many times suggestions that big beers be given a shot of oxygen 12-18 hours into fermentation to boost reproduction.

OP, are you suggesting that there may be benefit from aeration, or swirling the yeast back into suspension?
 
Pilgarlic said:
Looks to me as if OP may be talking about the benefits of aeration during fermentation, rather than agitation for the sake of resuspending the yeast. And there may be some merit to aeration beginning after the onset of active fermentation. If agitation is your method of aeration and it's also causing the brunhefe to dissolve into the beer, that's obviously not good.

As to continuing aeration after the onset of fermentation, quoting from "Making Big Brews Like the Pros", by Amahl Scheppach in the current issue of Zymurgy, in the section on aeration: "Aerate early, heavily and often...You can really help your "super" beers by repeating aeration or oxgenation during the lag phase and on into actual fermentation. This isn't something that the pros gerenarally do, but theoretically intermittent aeration can be done as late as five days into fermentation. How intermittent? As often as every four to six hours, if you can manage it."

I've read many times suggestions that big beers be given a shot of oxygen 12-18 hours into fermentation to boost reproduction.

OP, are you suggesting that there may be benefit from aeration, or swirling the yeast back into suspension?

This is what i was pointing out. Early aeration. Not putting the fermentor on the washing machime when its running!

Someone who has researched to a degree needed to write a book, has said AERATING OFTEN, EARLY ON IN FERMENT is a good thing.!!!!! Thats what i said NAMECALLING OF MODERATOR DELETED.
 
This is what i was pointing out. Early aeration. Not putting the fermentor on the washing machime when its running!

Someone who has researched to a degree needed to write a book, has said AERATING OFTEN, EARLY ON IN FERMENT is a good thing.!!!!! Thats what i said NAMECALLING DELETED

Insulting a moderator is not a way to make friends, unfortunately. You were treated with respect, even though you can't spell "you" and have no backing for the ridiculous claims you made. Unfortunate, isn't it?

Anyway, to the OP, don't listen to drivel. Listen to what makes sense. There is no advantage to swirling/aerating your fermenter. Leave it alone, and let it finish up and then clear.
 
This is what i was pointing out. Early aeration. Not putting the fermentor on the washing machime when its running!

Someone who has researched to a degree needed to write a book, has said AERATING OFTEN, EARLY ON IN FERMENT is a good thing.!!!!! Thats what i said NAMECALLING OF MODERATOR DELETED.

If the airlock is still on, you're not aerating anything. Add to that the fact that it is completely unnecessary and you've got a recipe for dumb. Yeast are good at what they do. Aerate, bring to temp, pitch the proper amount of yeast, then chill out.
 
The only time I've ever personally swirled the fermenter was during a stuck fermentation, just before raising the temp, to try and rouse the yeast a little bit (the idea being to try and get more activity out of yeast that may have flocc'd out). After getting stuck at about 1.021 (OG 1.065) for 3 days, it managed to get down to 1.010 following the swirling/temp raising.

As far as it being a good idea, I have a feeling raising the temp a few more degrees had more to do with the FG dropping. Personally I think that the risk of oxidation makes swirling not really worth it, but, if your OK with it, rousing the yeast might not be a bad idea.
 
Here's drivel for you, since someone suggested there may be an appetite for science: Quoting from "The Combined Effects of Oxygen Supply Strategy, Inoculum Size and Temperature Profile on Very-High-Gravity Beer Fermentation by Saccharomyces cerevisiae"; Heather L. Jones, Argyrios Margaritis, and Robert J. Stewart,

"The introduction of 25 ppm DO 12 h post-inoculation improved fermentation significantly better than the supply of oxygen immediately prior to inoculation. Under the conditions studied, the delayed oxygen provision approach resulted in a 33% improvement in attenuation time compared to control results. The results concur with previously published works which demonstrated that, compared to oxygen supply at the onset of fermentation, a delayed oxygenation strategy led to more efficient yeast growth and fermentation performance."

Granted, these were lab results, not garage brewing results. And the DO level of 25 ppm is incomparable to the 4-5 that could be had by shaking, IF there were oxygen in the headspace of a fermenting carboy. BUT... the notion that delayed introduction of oxygen may be beneficial in higher gravity fermentation really cannot be so easily dismissed. And when brewing a big ol' Belgian and looking for full attenuation, I'll use every trick I can.
 
Granted, these were lab results, not garage brewing results. And the DO level of 25 ppm is incomparable to the 4-5 that could be had by shaking, IF there were oxygen in the headspace of a fermenting carboy. BUT... the notion that delayed introduction of oxygen may be beneficial in higher gravity fermentation really cannot be so easily dismissed. And when brewing a big ol' Belgian and looking for full attenuation, I'll use every trick I can.

Absolutely, and I think that's important to note.

The key there though is actually oxygenating, and "higher gravity fermentation". I don't think swirling the fermenter at day 5 counts, though, as either "higher gravity fermentation" or "oxygenation", since it's in a closed container and we don't know if this is indeed a higher gravity beer. Also, not that those words are "MAY be beneficial". Also, they say they reach a quicker attenuation, and not necessarily a LOWER attenuation! Even in this case, there are no absolutes.
 
Yes, Yooper, I used the "may" advisedly. I posted the quote not to prove anything at all, but only as a counterpoint to the glib responses that so often characterize defense of dogma.

I have added pure O2 to BIG Belgians at 12-18 hours with no apparent ill-effects, and who knows what benefit (no control for comparison). I'll continue to do so, because it makes sense to me that the yeast, which would otherwise turn to anaerobic fermentation in an oxygen-depleted environment will, with an additional shot of O2, continue to reproduce.
 
Yes, Yooper, I used the "may" advisedly. I posted the quote not to prove anything at all, but only as a counterpoint to the glib responses that so often characterize defense of dogma.

I have added pure O2 to BIG Belgians at 12-18 hours with no apparent ill-effects, and who knows what benefit (no control for comparison). I'll continue to do so, because it makes sense to me that the yeast, which would otherwise turn to anaerobic fermentation in an oxygen-depleted environment will, with an additional shot of O2, continue to reproduce.

Sure, but that is pretty clearly not what the OP was talking about. If you started a thread describing the above, I highly doubt you'd get glib responses in defense of dogma. That seems pretty well thought out and rational.
 
Let me get some coffee this morning. I have a question on these subject.
 
I don't see how swirling early in the fermentation would make any difference. In my experience, during the first few days of fermentation, the beer is swirling itself just fine, with the action of the escaping CO2 gasses causing the beer to churn itself, all on its own. Everything is already being mixed quite well just from the internal currents of the yeast doing its thing.

Later on, after fermentation has finished, I suppose swirling might potentially rouse the dormant yeast to eke out another point of gravity, but the OP was asking about swirling in those first few days, not later.
 
No it won't hurt it done it many many times(back in my carboy days)...some times helps to rouse yeast that settled out to soon. I can't do it now though unless I want to give myself a heart attack or spend some time a the chiropractors.:)
 
The question I have is, how is oxygen getting into all the fermenters and people are not getting riddled with infection? When my beer fermenting, the internal pressures of the fermenter is a lot higher than the outside atmosphere, so I never get any oxygen inside my ferms. No madder what I do. When thinking about it that would really be impossible, unless you are open fermenting or have some unwanted hole in the ferm, it should be a sealed system. Even when I move the beer to keg, after hitting FG, just a little movement makes the pressure high enough to push CO2 out the lock. So I don’t see how any oxygen is getting into everyone’s systems.
 
The question I have is, how is oxygen getting into all the fermenters and people are not getting riddled with infection? When my beer fermenting, the internal pressures of the fermenter is a lot higher than the outside atmosphere, so I never get any oxygen inside my ferms. No madder what I do. When thinking about it that would really be impossible, unless you are open fermenting or have some unwanted hole in the ferm, it should be a sealed system. Even when I move the beer to keg, after hitting FG, just a little movement makes the pressure high enough to push CO2 out the lock. So I don’t see how any oxygen is getting into everyone’s systems.

That would be true of a closed system, but in some cases the lid just doesn't fit 100% airtight. (That's the subject of another thread- "why isn't my airlock bubbling?" :p). During primary, enough co2 is produced that you don't even need a lid, really. But once fermentation slows down, then oxidation could become a risk I guess.

My biggest concern with swirling the fermenter is just that it's not necessary, and I'd like to keep that krausen ring out of the beer. I'm pretty careful to leave it stuck to the sides of the fermenter when I rack out of it, and when I harvest the yeast.

I think a gentle swirling would be ok and not harmful, but certainly not necessary for most beers.

Oxygenation for big beers at 12-24 hours is definitely a well-regarded practice. Also, for wines and meads.
 
My biggest concern with swirling the fermenter is just that it's not necessary, and I'd like to keep that krausen ring out of the beer. I'm pretty careful to leave it stuck to the sides of the fermenter when I rack out of it, and when I harvest the yeast.

Absolutely true!!.....Krausen is a german word, and it roughly translates to "Junky Crap" :) Probably a good idea to keep as much "Junky Crap" out of your beer as possible:cross:
 
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